I still like Garza in our rotation

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    Garza does have very good numbers in the *current* AL East ballparks.  (Bad numbers in old Yankee Stadium, good numbers in new one.)

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    That is irrelevant. Man there are nearly 200 MLB starters and this forum talks about Garza for 3 straight years !!!



    He's one of the best starters available, he's healthy, he's pitching well, and he's virtually certain to be traded this month.  That's why he's worth discussing right now.

     

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    No he isn't and neither is Papelebon. Try moving on. I wonder how if the posters here can come up with any new ideas. 

    Garza is not a game changer and we are in first place... we do not have an ACE but we do have about 4 Garzas already on the staff.  Cliff Lee or bust !

    Lee is exorbitant.  Try moving on. Laughing
     

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    No he isn't and neither is Papelebon. Try moving on. I wonder how if the posters here can come up with any new ideas. 

    Garza is not a game changer and we are in first place... we do not have an ACE but we do have about 4 Garzas already on the staff.  Cliff Lee or bust !




    Do you even looks at stats before you post? Garza has an ERA in 2013 of 3.45 with a WHIP of 1.116 and an ERA+ of 117. While I am not in favor of surrendering any significant players to get him the statement of yours that he is not playing well is simply false.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    Nay !!!!  He will not .... recall last years Dodgers/Sox trade. We give Middy and one of our best prospects for Lee/Young and we have a shot!

     

    Goodnight from Phnom Penh !!!!! it is 10:46PM



    The Phillies have no great motivation for trading Lee if there aren't significant prospects coming back.  He's pitching well and they have loads of money.  They're not exactly in fire sale mode - they're not the Marlins.  

     

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    Pumpise really? Did I say he had bad numbers? There are over 150 MLB starters to choose from and yet for 3 straight years all we hear is 'Garza'. Same as "Hanley' or 'Masterson'.... as if there are not other and better options.

     

    Garza is not what we need. We have all the small parts and we need a mega factor to put the team over the top.



    Here is what you wrote when HFX posted that Garza is one of the best available starters:

    "No he isn't and neither is Papelebon."

    Before posting you should do some thinking. Garza is available and he is a pretty good SP. Not an ace, but a #2-3 SP right now, by the numbers. Instead of claiming he is either not available (which is not true) or not one of the best SP who is available and telling everyone to come up with some new ideas, why not try suggesting someone else who is both available and good? Don't bother suggesting Lee. He is not realistic because he would cost too many prospects and has a huge contract.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    What's the difference, Burr? You're a broken record on Lee and others are on Garza.

    Both are expendable to their teams. Both will cost prospects. Garza is a FA after this year: Lee is not, but Lee costs a fortune in contract and buyout clauses.

    I seriously doubt we get either one this deadline.

    Sox4ever

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    No he isn't and neither is Papelebon. Try moving on. I wonder how if the posters here can come up with any new ideas. 

    Garza is not a game changer and we are in first place... we do not have an ACE but we do have about 4 Garzas already on the staff.  Cliff Lee or bust !

     




    Do you even looks at stats before you post? Garza has an ERA in 2013 of 3.45 with a WHIP of 1.116 and an ERA+ of 117. While I am not in favor of surrendering any significant players to get him the statement of yours that he is not playing well is simply false.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not saying 3.45 and 1.116 are bad numbers, but they aren't the numbers he'd have if he was pitching in the AL East.

    1) NL has no DH.

     

    2) The NL Central is no AL East when it comes to offense.

      2013 Runs scored:  3-Cards, 11- Reds, 17- Milw, 24- Pitt

       AL East 2013: 1- Bos, 4- Bal, 6- Rays, 10 Jays, 18 NYY 

     

      Since 2011 (when he joined the Cubs: 4- Cards, 8- Milw, 14- Cincy, 26- Pitt

      AL East 2011-2013: 1- Bos, 3- NYY, 7- Tor, 9- Bal, 12 Rays

     

    3) Garza is certainly better than most AL East starters and is probably better than Lester and Dempster going forward, but how much better? Is that differential worth the value we give up to upgrade?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    No he isn't and neither is Papelebon. Try moving on. I wonder how if the posters here can come up with any new ideas. 

    Garza is not a game changer and we are in first place... we do not have an ACE but we do have about 4 Garzas already on the staff.  Cliff Lee or bust !

     

     




    Do you even looks at stats before you post? Garza has an ERA in 2013 of 3.45 with a WHIP of 1.116 and an ERA+ of 117. While I am not in favor of surrendering any significant players to get him the statement of yours that he is not playing well is simply false.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not saying 3.45 and 1.116 are bad numbers, but they aren't the numbers he'd have if he was pitching in the AL East.

     

    1) NL has no DH.

     

    2) The NL Central is no AL East when it comes to offense.

      2013 Runs scored:  3-Cards, 11- Reds, 17- Milw, 24- Pitt

       AL East 2013: 1- Bos, 4- Bal, 6- Rays, 10 Jays, 18 NYY 

     

      Since 2011 (when he joined the Cubs: 4- Cards, 8- Milw, 14- Cincy, 26- Pitt

      AL East 2011-2013: 1- Bos, 3- NYY, 7- Tor, 9- Bal, 12 Rays

     

    3) Garza is certainly better than most AL East starters and is probably better than Lester and Dempster going forward, but how much better? Is that differential worth the value we give up to upgrade?

    [/QUOTE]


    Obviously his numbers would take a hit in the ALE. Right now, however, those are the only numbers he has for this year and I posted them as a reference point to counter Burrito's assertion that he is not a good pitcher. He is. I am not in favor of surrendering anything but B level prospects to bolster our SP because I don't think it needs bolstering. The focus should be on getting two good RP including someone who can close.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    I'm not saying 3.45 and 1.116 are bad numbers, but they aren't the numbers he'd have if he was pitching in the AL East.

     

     

    1) NL has no DH.

     

    2) The NL Central is no AL East when it comes to offense.

      2013 Runs scored:  3-Cards, 11- Reds, 17- Milw, 24- Pitt

       AL East 2013: 1- Bos, 4- Bal, 6- Rays, 10 Jays, 18 NYY 

     

      Since 2011 (when he joined the Cubs: 4- Cards, 8- Milw, 14- Cincy, 26- Pitt

      AL East 2011-2013: 1- Bos, 3- NYY, 7- Tor, 9- Bal, 12 Rays

     

    3) Garza is certainly better than most AL East starters and is probably better than Lester and Dempster going forward, but how much better? Is that differential worth the value we give up to upgrade?

     




    Obviously his numbers would take a hit in the ALE. Right now, however, those are the only numbers he has for this year and I posted them as a reference point to counter Burrito's assertion that he is not a good pitcher. He is. I am not in favor of surrendering anything but B level prospects to bolster our SP because I don't think it needs bolstering. The focus should be on getting two good RP including someone who can close.

    Garza vs AL since joining the Cubs:

    2013: 2-0  2.42 (LAA, HOU, OAK)

    2012: 1-1  4.50 (CWS/DET)

    2011: 0-1  1.93 (CWS)

    Not much of a sample size.

     

    We're not getting him for B level prospects, so let's move on.

     

    Sox4ever

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    I don't want either Garza or Lee.

    First: Theo is going to want some top prospects and young pitching for Garza, and I don't want to give up the prospects it would take to get him.

    Second: I really don't think that Garza, while an upgrade, would be a significant enough upgrade in the short term to be worth the prospects and I'd be very concerned about his worth it in the long run when you consider all the innings he has under his belt. I'd rather go forward with Doubrant, considering the way he seems to have turned the corner. (Doubrant probably would be included in any deal).

    Third: Garza will be a free agent and when you add the cost to re-sign him along with prospects it would take to get him -- not worth it in the long run.

    Fourth: From what I've read, the Phillies say they're going to rebuild around Lee. Beyond that, again, in the long run considering his age and cost, I don't want to give up the prospects the Phillies would want and I doubth they'd get rid of him strictly as a salary dum where it wouldn't cost much in prosects.

    Fifth AND MOST IMPORTANT IMO: The grass isn't always greener. The Sox are second starters ERA last I checked so unless someone collapses in the next couple of weeks, there's really not an opening where the upgrade would be significant enough to be worth what the cost would be in prosects. The pitching need is bullpen arms, not some expensive sexy acquisition for an older pitcher.

     

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    What's the difference, Burr? You're a broken record on Lee and others are on Garza.

    Both are expendable to their teams. Both will cost prospects. Garza is a FA after this year: Lee is not, but Lee costs a fortune in contract and buyout clauses.

    I seriously doubt we get either one this deadline.

    Sox4ever

     



    Broken record on Lee? I have maybe made 5 posts on him this year... max. I was for selling players come July 15th but now our record dictates we are going to the play-offs, now is the time to make a real move.

     



    Burrito, here is reality for fans like you who feel our team is fine and doesn't need another good SP like Garza, help in the pen or another big bat.  Tonight is a perfect example of a PS game and what kind of pitching we will be facing/doing nothing offensively.  Lackey is pitching the very best he can and is still losing if you feel Demp and Doub will have a shot your in dream land.

    We or only as good as the other teams pitching will allow us to be in the PS.  Right now, its great to be in first place but won't advance in the playoffs with our present pitching staff.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    What's the difference, Burr? You're a broken record on Lee and others are on Garza.

    Both are expendable to their teams. Both will cost prospects. Garza is a FA after this year: Lee is not, but Lee costs a fortune in contract and buyout clauses.

    I seriously doubt we get either one this deadline.

    Sox4ever

     



    Broken record on Lee? I have maybe made 5 posts on him this year... max. I was for selling players come July 15th but now our record dictates we are going to the play-offs, now is the time to make a real move.

     

     



    Burrito, here is reality for fans like you who feel our team is fine and doesn't need another good SP like Garza, help in the pen or another big bat.  Tonight is a perfect example of a PS game and what kind of pitching we will be facing/doing nothing offensively.  Lackey is pitching the very best he can and is still losing if you feel Demp and Doub will have a shot your in dream land.

     

    We or only as good as the other teams pitching will allow us to be in the PS.  Right now, its great to be in first place but won't advance in the playoffs with our present pitching staff.

    [/QUOTE]

    Anything can happen once you are in the playoffs, but I agree that we will not be the favorites to even win the AL Championship with the rotation as is. However, I do not think garza is a significant upgrade for the cost it will take to get him. Contrary to some Sox fans' beliefs, he will not be traded for "B prospects". Cliff Lee will also cost top prospects, but he will also restrict the amount of money we will have available this winter and beyond to fill the many gaps we will have.

    It would be great if Lava/Vazquez/Ross could do well next year. It would be great if Carp/Nava/Middlebrooks could do well at 1B next year. It would be great if Bogaerts/Middlebrooks/Holt/Snyder could do well at 3B next year. It would be great if Iggy keeps doing very well at the plate as out FT SS next year. It would be great if Bradley Jr. does well in CF next year and Victorino stays healthy enough to play CF, if JBJ struggles. It would be great if Nava/Brentz could cover RF, if SV has to play CF. It would be great if Webster, DLR, Wilson, Ranaudo and others fill in well for any pitching staff gaps that may arise next year. All of these are not dreams, but certainly thinking all these scenarios will come true is a big dream. We will need to spend some this winter to fill some gaps and offer some options, in case some of these do not work out like we all hope they do. That's gonna cost more money than Lee's contract will allow us to spend.

    If we can get a quality pen arm and 3Bman that can kill lefties, we will still have a good chance to win this year, but the cost to our future will be minimal. It's probably better to try and get that quality starter this winter. Coming from a man who is always for upgrading the rotation from near the top, it was not easy for me to say, "wait", but I think Garza (assuming no trade & extension) and Lee will cost more than they are worth, and unless another SP becomes available who is under team control for several years and does not cost what Lee's contract demands, I will probably be against trading for a SP this deadline.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation


    When moonslav and royf19 are saying the same thing, it's time to listen.  And it really does boil down to this:  Garza just might be an improvement over Lester or Dempster or Doubront, but not by enough to justify what the Cubs will want in return. 

    I also find it ironic that the Sox starting pitching without Buchholz is doing pretty good at the very point when we have a four page thread on improving the rotation by selling the farm or part of it anyway. 

    More and more it is looking like the only sensible fix is getting bullpen help. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:


    When moonslav and royf19 are saying the same thing, it's time to listen.  And it really does boil down to this:  Garza just might be an improvement over Lester or Dempster or Doubront, but not by enough to justify what the Cubs will want in return. 

    I also find it ironic that the Sox starting pitching without Buchholz is doing pretty good at the very point when we have a four page thread on improving the rotation by selling the farm or part of it anyway. 

    More and more it is looking like the only sensible fix is getting bullpen help. 



    I know Buch is still a big reason we are in 1st place, even with his missing so many starts, but getting him back will be a big shot in the arm... almost like trading for Lee or Garza, but without giving up the prospects or luxury limit room to do so.

     
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    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    Glug glug zug zug chump. Lee is obtainable. Why get Garza? You would lambaste him the first game he throws for us for going 6 innings and giving up 3 runs. 



    Though Lee is the better pitcher Garza may very well be a better pitcher from here on out.  Lee is entering the "May break down any year now" stage of his career.  And you get that risk with a nice hefty price tag of Prospects + 25 Million dollars a year.

    If we were to trade for a pitcher, I'd be much more comfortable with giving up prospects for a guy we can get to stick around and help out the rotation for years to come. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Glug glug zug zug chump. Lee is obtainable. Why get Garza? You would lambaste him the first game he throws for us for going 6 innings and giving up 3 runs. 

     

    Though Lee is the better pitcher Garza may very well be a better pitcher from here on out.  Lee is entering the "May break down any year now" stage of his career.  And you get that risk with a nice hefty price tag of Prospects + 25 Million dollars a year.

     

    If we were to trade for a pitcher, I'd be much more comfortable with giving up prospects for a guy we can get to stick around and help out the rotation for years to come. 

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Assuming we do not take his last option year, Lee would cost $62.5M for 2014 and 2015! That's actually $31.25M a year.

    Absurdity.

    13:$25M, 14:$25M, 15:$25M, 16:$27.5M club option ($12.5M buyout)





     
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    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Glug glug zug zug chump. Lee is obtainable. Why get Garza? You would lambaste him the first game he throws for us for going 6 innings and giving up 3 runs. 

     

     

     

    Though Lee is the better pitcher Garza may very well be a better pitcher from here on out.  Lee is entering the "May break down any year now" stage of his career.  And you get that risk with a nice hefty price tag of Prospects + 25 Million dollars a year.

     

    If we were to trade for a pitcher, I'd be much more comfortable with giving up prospects for a guy we can get to stick around and help out the rotation for years to come. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

     

    Assuming we do not take his last option year, Lee would cost $62.5M for 2014 and 2015! That's actually $31.25M a year.

    Absurdity.

    13:$25M, 14:$25M, 15:$25M, 16:$27.5M club option ($12.5M buyout)





    [/QUOTE]

    WOW  31.25$ is absurd.  The more I think about it the more I thnk he stays in Philly.

     

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