I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 



    His ERA is, I believe, now under 4. Thats pretty good. I will be a believer if he can keep it up consistently. That has been his downfall: inconsistency. Still, I have to admit that season to date he has exceeded my expectations so far.

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    We all know he's had an up and down season. But in his last 10 starts he's 4-3 w/ a 2.91 ERA, not too bad.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 




    While you were defending Doubront, and rightfully so, I was defending Lester. To me, he had too much of a successful history to give up on him. He has too much talent and pitching smarts to not still be successful becoming a true "pitcher". There is a transition period though and it can take a little while. He had no help in 2012 so the real transformation started when farrell and Nieves arrived last winter. Ive maintained all along that hes still a front line pitcher, and I still believe he will be when its all said and done. Hes been pitching a lot like one lately.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    I thought his problem was way too many fastballs and wanted to see more curves and changeups.    

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    I thought his problem was way too many fastballs and wanted to see more curves and changeups.    




    His fastball and changeup have actually been plus pitches for him this year; his curve and cutter have been below average:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4930&position=P

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from michaelsjr. Show michaelsjr's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    Admit I was ready to haul him out with the catbox litter.  He is proving me wrong and I couldn't be happier.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 

     



    His ERA is, I believe, now under 4. Thats pretty good. I will be a believer if he can keep it up consistently. That has been his downfall: inconsistency. Still, I have to admit that season to date he has exceeded my expectations so far.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    He really just had a bad month, he has been extremely consistent in every month besides then.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    Fat Cat Ace

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 

     




    While you were defending Doubront, and rightfully so, I was defending Lester. To me, he had too much of a successful history to give up on him. He has too much talent and pitching smarts to not still be successful becoming a true "pitcher". There is a transition period though and it can take a little while. He had no help in 2012 so the real transformation started when farrell and Nieves arrived last winter. Ive maintained all along that hes still a front line pitcher, and I still believe he will be when its all said and done. Hes been pitching a lot like one lately.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah...I was defending Doubie because of his upside and cost. He had a couple bad outings there and bounced back last outing. He did the same thing last year..( Doubie ) hit a wall in aug then finished strong, I expect the same thing this yr. Lester , to me , looked like he didn't believe that he had lost some zip and was still trying to over power hitters. I think Farrell and Nieves have gotten to him though and he looks like he's buying in. Same with Doubrant. The back door curveball that Jon threw to HanRam to strike him out was a thing of beauty. My main concern though...About extending Lester is INJURY...I don't want to see it happen, but he is due...he's a lot of innings on that elbo and shoulder. And he HAS BEEN...A HORSE. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

     

     

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 

     

     



    His ERA is, I believe, now under 4. Thats pretty good. I will be a believer if he can keep it up consistently. That has been his downfall: inconsistency. Still, I have to admit that season to date he has exceeded my expectations so far.

     

     



    He really just had a bad month, he has been extremely consistent in every month besides then.

     



    Thats not quite accurate, or at least its misleading. He was aweful for a long long time. From April 24 to Aug 2 his ERA was 5.14. Thats over three months. Since then, over just his last four starts (=very small sample size) his ERA is 1.24. If he can keep this up I will believe in Jon Lester, but right now, I would not trust him in a big game.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 

     

     




    While you were defending Doubront, and rightfully so, I was defending Lester. To me, he had too much of a successful history to give up on him. He has too much talent and pitching smarts to not still be successful becoming a true "pitcher". There is a transition period though and it can take a little while. He had no help in 2012 so the real transformation started when farrell and Nieves arrived last winter. Ive maintained all along that hes still a front line pitcher, and I still believe he will be when its all said and done. Hes been pitching a lot like one lately.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah...I was defending Doubie because of his upside and cost. He had a couple bad outings there and bounced back last outing. He did the same thing last year..( Doubie ) hit a wall in aug then finished strong, I expect the same thing this yr. Lester , to me , looked like he didn't believe that he had lost some zip and was still trying to over power hitters. I think Farrell and Nieves have gotten to him though and he looks like he's buying in. Same with Doubrant. The back door curveball that Jon threw to HanRam to strike him out was a thing of beauty. My main concern though...About extending Lester is INJURY...I don't want to see it happen, but he is due...he's a lot of innings on that elbo and shoulder. And he HAS BEEN...A HORSE. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I can understand the injury thing, but with his easy and smooth delivery, being a big sturdy kid and having aboslutely no previous injury issues at all Im not as worried.

    He would be good for a 5yr deal. Hes already completely played better and has been paid. If he turns this corner like I believe he will, he should be good into his mid 30's. Of course you can say one way or the other if he will get injured, but with what they know and his history, hes a pitcher I would take the chance on staying healthy to the age of 35.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

     

     

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 

     

     



    His ERA is, I believe, now under 4. Thats pretty good. I will be a believer if he can keep it up consistently. That has been his downfall: inconsistency. Still, I have to admit that season to date he has exceeded my expectations so far.

     

     



    He really just had a bad month, he has been extremely consistent in every month besides then.

     

     

     



    Thats not quite accurate, or at least its misleading. He was aweful for a long long time. From April 24 to Aug 2 his ERA was 5.14. Thats over three months. Since then, over just his last four starts (=very small sample size) his ERA is 1.24. If he can keep this up I will believe in Jon Lester, but right now, I would not trust him in a big game.

     

     

     




    That overall ERA can be misleading too. A couple of bad games can easily inflate that. Just look at all his individual game logs. For the first month and a half he was great. For the next month and a week he was mostly bad and had a few bad outings. Since july hes been very good.

     

    Jon Lester

    Start - 5/15

    2.72ERA  59.2IP  9GS  50K 15BB 45H 18ER

    5/20 - 6/27

    6.99ERA  47.2IP  8GS  38K 24BB 61H 37ER

    7/3 - present

    2.91ERA  65IP  10GS  63H 21ER 53K 18BB

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    We sure do need him this season, most important Pitcher for the Sox. Sorry not Buchholz. Lester is the key.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:

    We sure do need him this season, most important Pitcher for the Sox. Sorry not Buchholz. Lester is the key.



    Sorry. Its Buchholz. Ostensibly our ace; Lester is no ace.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    Buchholz will never go deep into the game like Lester. He doesnt have enough time for his ARM STRENGTH . hahaha

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:

    Buchholz will never go deep into the game like Lester. He doesnt have enough time for his ARM STRENGTH . hahaha



    If he can come back and pitch like he is capable of pitching (ie sub 2 ERA), he is more valueable than Lester. As he is now, he is useless.

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to Iowasoxfann's comment:

    Why all of the attention on rating starters? I don't see why we should lose sleep over it?



    this clearly this thread is not for you pike.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

     

     

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 

     

     



    His ERA is, I believe, now under 4. Thats pretty good. I will be a believer if he can keep it up consistently. That has been his downfall: inconsistency. Still, I have to admit that season to date he has exceeded my expectations so far.

     

     



    He really just had a bad month, he has been extremely consistent in every month besides then.

     

     



    Thats not quite accurate, or at least its misleading. He was aweful for a long long time. From April 24 to Aug 2 his ERA was 5.14. Thats over three months. Since then, over just his last four starts (=very small sample size) his ERA is 1.24. If he can keep this up I will believe in Jon Lester, but right now, I would not trust him in a big game.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    That isn't misleading? He had an ERA in the low 3's in May and July. You are taking one bad month and adding weeks to it until the ERA is too low to complain about.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 




    Maybe John Farrell and Juan Nieves deserve a % of that extension. Lets face RS have gone through pitching coaches like George Steinbrenner used to go thru managers. Having Farell back in dugout has probably been the biggest reason for turnaround, he knows he's got people he can trust when things aren't going well, anyone can be the PC when things are working.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from craig2174. Show craig2174's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    I thought his problem was way too many fastballs and wanted to see more curves and changeups.    

    I think he actually started picthing better when he used the fastball more and located it.  The less he has used the cutter the better it has been for him.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from patrickford. Show patrickford's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    I suspect the turn around has to do with Sox managment quietly complaining to the league office about the way Lester was being abused by umpires who thought they would teach Lester a lesson because he was making faces. 
    There is nothing in the rule book about "making faces." If a players actions are out of line they can be thrown out of a game. Making faces doesn't meet the out of line test, so childish wanna-be cops decided they would "show" Lester who was boss. 

    Take every single close pitch away from the pitcher and what happens? It's all the difference in the world. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: I think I was WRONG about Jon Lester

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to makonikyman's comment:

     

     

    I have been one who has been pretty hard on Jon Lester this past year or so. I thought he was a bit pig headed, and stubborn to make the changes needed for him to succeed here, or anywhere for the second half of his carreer. But after watching him PITCH.....yesterday I think he has made me a believer. Yeah...I know he was great for us and I also know his numbers....but let's face it....he has been abysmal for TWO YEARS.If he continues PITCHING....and that is the key word here, the rest of the year like he did yesterday, I would seriously consider making him a priority to extend him for 4 yrs or so. Having him and Pedroia locked up ( two guys who grew up together as red sox for would be nice. There is no reason AT ALL thay Jon couldn't be our version of Andy Pettite ( without the peds) 

     

     



    His ERA is, I believe, now under 4. Thats pretty good. I will be a believer if he can keep it up consistently. That has been his downfall: inconsistency. Still, I have to admit that season to date he has exceeded my expectations so far.

     

     



    He really just had a bad month, he has been extremely consistent in every month besides then.

     

     



    Thats not quite accurate, or at least its misleading. He was aweful for a long long time. From April 24 to Aug 2 his ERA was 5.14. Thats over three months. Since then, over just his last four starts (=very small sample size) his ERA is 1.24. If he can keep this up I will believe in Jon Lester, but right now, I would not trust him in a big game.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Let's see, his ERA was 7.36 (something like that for June, yet you choose to extend how "bad" Lester each way to bring his ERA to 5.14 for three months, which means he must have been pretty good before and after.

    Starting back on April 24 and extending it through Aug. 2 to come up with that ERA has to be among the most pathetic cherry-picking of stats I've ever seen. 

    On a month-by-month basis, he's had just one bad month -- June -- and has had sub 4.00 ERAs the rest of the time. So yes, overall, he's had just one bad month. But using a month-by-month doesn't quite tell the complete picture.

    Unlike you, however, I believe in an honest evaluation using stats, so I'll admit that it's a bit misleading to say he's had one bad month. Look at his game-by-game results and you'll see that he struggled for about a month-and-half. Mid-May through the end of June. Yes, he had a bad start before mid-May and he has had two bad starts since the start of July, but that's just normal pitching.

    And if you look at some of those starts at the beginning of that stretch, they include starts that had numbers like -- 6 IP, 3 ER, 7 IP 4 ER. Yes, that's gives you ERA of 4.50 and 5.14, which doesn't look good. But those are the type "bad' starts you hope your starter can limit it too because it still gives you a chance to win. Unfortunately, Lester after that had some really bad starts.

    I know you like bashing Lester but could you at least try to show a little intellectual honesty in doing so.

     
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