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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Beantowne's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Our present team doesn't remind me much of our 04 club that featured Mannys bat in the middle of the lineup and a team OBP of .370 

    A few dirt dogs maybe but we are not a WC type team regardless of how much we hope and pray otherwise.

    The worst part is that with all the money spent this winter, we are no better off for 2014 and beyond either.



    End of the day our roster as comprised is much deeper than the squad that finished the 2012 season. So one could argue that not only will we be better in 2014. We'll be much improved over the 2012 team entering play this year. What everyone has to come to grips with is that the process of retooling this team is going to take a few years. There is no easy fixes to the mess that was left behind by Epstien and the dysfunction that was this teams front office for the better part of the last 5 years. which manifested itself in two underachieving teams with a roster of players that as a collective were less than the sum of their parts. Make no mistake about it everyone involved with this team understands the current state of the organization. what none of us are privy to is the actual long term plan. What I do know is that Henry and Luccino both know that the future value of the team is predicated on continued support by the local business community. who comprise the bulk of the sponsor that pay the freight and it's those money's that serve to line the pockets of the shareholders. 

    As tough as this might be, we the fans are going to have to reset our priorities. We're no longer a perennial power....more so a sleeping giant. In 2013 we'll go as far as our pitching will take us. Like it or not that means we need Lester, Buccholz & Lackey each to pitch well along with solid seasons from Pedrioa, Ortiz, Middlebrooks & Ellsbury. Short of that and we're looking at a .500 club at best.

     



    Good post Bean,

    However,  this team is only deeper if we can avoid injuries, get solid SP and good years out of the few starters who can play daily without being platooned.  Those designated to platoon also need to do their jobs in hopes we can raise our OBP enough to compete from both sides of the plate and increase our run production.   

    Outside of the bullpen and Farrell we look weaker at 1B, have no real answer or equal production at 3B if Middy goes on the DL and are still weak in the OF.  We added Dempster to a staff that we are already hoping for nothing short of a miracle from to rebound.  Lastly, we still have Salty catching "who still can't call a good game, or get OB enough to help out offensively, hopefully Ross and Lav can help here.

    All I see is a lot of hopes and prays with very few upgrades over last seasons team,.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:

     

    It is spelled Afghanistan.

    You really need to take your time with this kind of thing and read up on your subjects.  It is hard to take you seriously otherwise.



    You didn't actually read all of that crap, did you?



    No.  I just glanced over it. It was just rather glaring that such a learned man such as he doesn't know how to spell the name of a country that is in the news constantly.

    The guy is thick.



    Last time I read something that long, I was working on my thesis.



    And the last time I read something that long, I was working on my feces.  

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    Good post Bean,

    However,  this team is only deeper if we can avoid injuries, get solid SP and good years out of the few starters who can play daily without being platooned.  Those designated to platoon also need to do their jobs in hopes we can raise our OBP enough to compete from both sides of the plate and increase our run production.   

    Outside of the bullpen and Farrell we look weaker at 1B, have no real answer or equal production at 3B if Middy goes on the DL and are still weak in the OF.  We added Dempster to a staff that we are already hoping for nothing short of a miracle from to rebound.  Lastly, we still have Salty catching "who still can't call a good game, or get OB enough to help out offensively, hopefully Ross and Lav can help here.

    All I see is a lot of hopes and prays with very few upgrades over last seasons team,.

    Hey Craze,

    I'd suggest that we have to wait to see where the Napoli deal ends up before we conclude that we're weaker at 1B. Remember we finished the year with Looney. Which is the bench mark, not Agon...I also think that there's another deal in offing regardless of whether Napoli is signed and most certainly if he's not. They still need to address a B/U corner infielder preferably one that hits lefthanded. A position that Salty might also be in the mix for?

    As for our pitching staff, there's been a few post that have already shown that both Lester and Buccholz pitched much better in the second half of last year. I wouldn't under estimate the cause and effect that Farrel will have on helping both to fix some of thier mechnical issues. Dempster's track record is that of a workhorse with 30 starts & 200 IP his norm for the last 5 or 6 years. Who along with Doubront give the Sox 4 healthy starters entering the spring. Leaving only Lackey as a wildcard, all reports I've read suggust that Lackey will also be ready to go come February. If we add Morales, Aceves and Tazawa to the mix that's 8 healthy guys all of whom have the ability to start the season in the rotation or provide spot starts. End of the day Lester's return to form, as a top of the rotation starter, where he provides the team with both QS and length is the key and IMHO in one of the primary reasons why Farrel was brought in to manage.

    As for Salty catching. I'm not as concerned about his game calling ability as many on here  that like to make a larger issue than it really is...In that regard he showed improvement last year and there's no reason to believe he can't continue to improve. While he's not the best at any one thing he's a tough kid that works hard. His bat (power) places him among the most productive offensive catchers in the game. His handling of the pitchers and his ability to call a good game also falls on the shoulders of the pitching coach and the catching instructors/bullpen coach Tuck. To continue to challenge him to work on the mental aspects of the game while fine tuning the subtle nuances of the technical parts (pitch framing etc). In the end the pitchers simply have to trust the pitch selection, location and then execute the pitch...if they don't like what been called, they simply have to shake him off.

    I'm a tad more oppomistic than most with regards to our roster makeup and I think the Sox as comprised are a legit 85-90 win team and will be in the mix come June 1st and if they are? Then I'd suspect that Henry and Luccino, as has been the model sinve they took over control of the team, will then empower Cherington to look at areas of need and provide him with the resources he needs to make deals in the interest of giving the team and the players the tools they need to finish strong.

    I'll close with the calendar just turned to the New Year and the roster is still a work in progress and will be for the better part of the next few weeks. Leading up to the start of camp and the goal has always been to enter the spring with the best 40 man rosters posible given all the variables. Then head to camp see what we have and then make ready for opening day. Where the best 25 guys of the 40 get a shot at playing some ball and each player individually and as a collective then are evaluated and based on the reletive strengths of each and the team. the roster is then tweaked in the interest of fielding the best team within budgeted guidelines in hopes of playing deep into October...

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    .....do you think young Ben keeps his job? Will the ones who have been defending on here admit he's not a good GM?

    I mean, come on. We have essentially the same payroll we did in 2012 without the likes of Agon, C. Ross,  Beckett and Crawford, who have been replaced with average players. Does anyone honestly think this team as constructed can actually compete for a post-season berth?

    I'll admit the BP is better, but except for a closer, the BP was pretty darn good last year. Ryan Dempster does not improve the SP. Morales would do just as good a job, or Padilla for that matter. Everyone is banking on Lester and Buchholz returning to form, and Lackey (who has never really proved his worth) to be effective.

    Is John Farrell to be the savior? His two years in Toronto didn't bear a lot of fruit and his handling of the Escobar incident suggest he's much like Francona in the discipline arena.

    I think there are many on here who see this roster as a reflection of 2004. Dirt-dogs that will rise to the occassion. I hope you are right and I am wrong.




    You can do better than this? We lost CC, Agon, Beckett, Punto, and Ross from last year. Out of that bunch really only 2 players were contributing to the RS in Agon / Ross. CC, Beckett, and Punto were giving us nothing. In return we've gotten [2] promising young pitchers in Webster /De La Rosa and used 2 other players to acquire an allstar closer in Hanrahan, not to mention w/ $ saved signed Ross/Gomes/Victorino/Napoli [pending]/Dempster all to 3 yrs or less contracts which is probably the best part of all the deals instead of being on the hook for 6-7 yrs as in Agon / CC.

     But bottom line is RS will go only as far as there pitching takes them. Everything is on the starters. If Lester and Buchholz can bounce back from down years, can Lackey now healthy return to the pitcher he was a few years back, does Doubront take the next step [cut down on the walks] and Dempster win 10-15 games. While not probable that all will happen, not out of reason that 3-4 will because none are far fetched. Bullpen has the makings of being VERY good and RS will score runs. If so RS will be in contention for a playoff spot. As for comparing Dempster to Padilla or Farrell to Bobby V, both are huge upgrades. While I will not compare this or any other for that matter to the 04 team [sacred in my book] the 2013 RS will win alot more than 69 games, and if for a change we can stay healthy may surprise a lot of people, but not ready to warm up the duck boats just yet. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    ben is afraid to fail...therefore he will not succeed....his entire philosophy is risk aversion and it is couched in the phony terms of "protecting" the draft picks...a very convenient way of saying that if we lose, we will be better in the future...

    bootlicking dumb...

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to georom4's comment:

    ben is afraid to fail...therefore he will not succeed....his entire philosophy is risk aversion and it is couched in the phony terms of "protecting" the draft picks...a very convenient way of saying that if we lose, we will be better in the future...

    bootlicking dumb...



    So obviously you believe that the Sox should have just reverted back to what got them in trouble in the first place...that being to go out and spend large money on long-term deals for players who may or may not be worth anywhere close to that.

    So the Sox should have gone right back out there and invested big money into Hamilton and Greinke regardless of the risks involved...just to put a couple of "named" players on the roster.

    Wasn't the object of trading Gonzalez to get out from under those types of deals??

    Considering the talent that was on the market this offseason, I didn't see them doing anything more than what they've done...and that is not being AFRAID...that is going with short term commitments and relying on your farm system to fill the gaps in the next few years.

    2/3 years from now we all may look back at this approach as being genius, that is if the prospects that we are expecting to help come through in the majors at that time.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    2/3 years from now we all may look back at this approach as being genius, that is if the prospects that we are expecting to help come through in the majors at that time.

    Let's assume the prospects do "come through" as you suggest. How would a different plan by Ben have effected our future?

    I contend that Ben played it "halfway" making us not true contenders in 2013 while at the same time not helping us at all in the future, unless we trade away some of our signed players by 2014 or 2015.

    Had ben played it one of the other two major ways (and there are countless variations in degrees on this spectrum), how would it have effected the now & the future?

    Extreme plan A: Plan for 2014, 2015 and beyond. Trade away all FAs-to be (Ellsbury, Salty & Breslow) and players that do not rate to be helpful in 2014, 2015 or beyond in some cases (maybe a couple from Bailey, Aceves, Miller, & Morales- if not extended). Stockpile prospects. Sign only younger FAs that will be entering or in their prime in 2014, 2015 or beyond. Trade only for players that are under team control for 3 or more years and are in or near prime up to at least 2015 (For example, one from: Upton, Myers, Stanton...) I contend that this plan would have made the fans more excited, helped us improve over 2012 (maybe not as much as Ben's plan), but more importantly, set us up much better for 2014 and beyond.

    Extreme plan B: Plan to be highly competitive in 2013, but also into the future. Have players signed to longer terms that although they may be at the end or out of their prime years by 2015, by the nature of their much higher skill level than guys like Naps and Victorino, they will likely be at a higher production level in 2014, 2015, and still be helpful in 2016 or 2017. Although this was not my choice of plans, I contend that it would have been better than Ben's "halfway plan", and none of the players ended up signing for 6 or 7 years like the CC deal. Had we signed Hamilton, Sanchez, D Ross, Uehara, and a couple cheap role players, we'd be contenders in 2013 (plus drawing higher viewership) and much better off in 2014 & 2015 when the prospects "come through".

     

    Playing it halfway brought us nothing. We will not seriously compete in 2013, and we are no better off by 2015, unless we trade away many players before then and do better than recent dealings have appeared to do for us.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to georom4's comment:

    ben is afraid to fail...therefore he will not succeed....his entire philosophy is risk aversion and it is couched in the phony terms of "protecting" the draft picks...a very convenient way of saying that if we lose, we will be better in the future...

    bootlicking dumb...




    yaddayaddayadda.  I could be swayed by your obtuse assertions if you provided an alternative that is smarter than what Cherrington is doing right now.  Is it to stake the next five or six years on the almost-ace-like shoulders of Grienke and/or 120-game-a-year-champ Hamilton?  Risk aversion was the only way to play it this off-season.  Tell me the way to succeed and I will re-examine my stance.  At the moment, I think it is actually you who are bootlicking dumb.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Helloitsmeagain. Show Helloitsmeagain's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    I think it's funny how some project almost all the prospects to be MLB starters.

    They are prospects and most don't become full time MLB starters. You have to get really lucky for that to happen.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    I asked four simple questions yet no one will answer them. Here's a recap:

    Post-Season

    1) Will young Ben keep his job?

    2) Will those defending him admit he's not a good GM?

    Pre-Season

    3) Can this 2013 team compete for a post-season berth?

    4) Is Farrell the savior?




    1) Not if they win fewer than 70 games again.  But that is not going to happen, so YES.

    2) NO.  Won't have to.

    3) YES.  But won't be suprised if they don't.  Anything is possible.  Just look at the Orioles.

    4) NO.  If they Sox return to the 80 - 90 win category will be because the pitching was good enough, not because Farrell's presence or charisma.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Helloitsmeagain. Show Helloitsmeagain's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    1) Not if they win fewer than 70 games again.  But that is not going to happen, so YES.

    2) NO.  Won't have to.

    3) YES.  But won't be suprised if they don't.  Anything is possible.  Just look at the Orioles.

    4) NO.  If they Sox return to the 80 - 90 win category will be because the pitching was good enough, not because Farrell's presence or charisma.

    [/QUOTE]

    How do you know they won't win fewer than 70 games again, did you ask your magic 8 ball?

     

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    How do you know they won't win fewer than 70 games again, did you ask your magic 8 ball?

    Exactly.  And then I asked the Ouija board.  And then I looked at the tea leaves in my Ginseng tea cup.  Finally, I asked the Long Island Medium.

    Then I looked at the roster and based on what I know of the talent they have (and noticing improved talent at almost every position over last year that needed improvement) I offered my prediction.  Since Alibi was asking for answers that could only be predictive (or what would otherwise be called opinion) I offered my mine:  The Sox WILL NOT win fewer than 70 games next season. 

    Do you think otherwise?  What are your reasons, other than being a troll? 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Helloitsmeagain. Show Helloitsmeagain's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    How do you know they won't win fewer than 70 games again, did you ask your magic 8 ball?

    Exactly.  And then I asked the Ouija board.  And then I looked at the tea leaves in my Ginseng tea cup.  Finally, I asked the Long Island Medium.

    Then I looked at the roster and based on what I know of the talent they have (and noticing improved talent at almost every position over last year that needed improvement) I offered my prediction.  Since Alibi was asking for answers that could only be predictive (or what would otherwise be called opinion) I offered my mine:  The Sox WILL NOT win fewer than 70 games next season. 

    Do you think otherwise?  What are your reasons, other than being a troll? 



    I'm not sure if they will or not. Nobody expected them to do as poorly as they did last year, anything can happen.

    To say definitively that they will not is just your homer opinion, not a fact.

     

     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Helloitsmeagain's comment:

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    How do you know they won't win fewer than 70 games again, did you ask your magic 8 ball?

    Exactly.  And then I asked the Ouija board.  And then I looked at the tea leaves in my Ginseng tea cup.  Finally, I asked the Long Island Medium.

    Then I looked at the roster and based on what I know of the talent they have (and noticing improved talent at almost every position over last year that needed improvement) I offered my prediction.  Since Alibi was asking for answers that could only be predictive (or what would otherwise be called opinion) I offered my mine:  The Sox WILL NOT win fewer than 70 games next season. 

    Do you think otherwise?  What are your reasons, other than being a troll? 



    I'm not sure if they will or not. Nobody expected them to do as poorly as they did last year, anything can happen.

    To say definitively that they will not is just your homer opinion, not a fact.

     




    You are an troll and an idiot if you think anyone answered Alibi's 4 questions with FACTS (or even could).  We will not know the FACTS until the 2013 season is over.  Alibi asked for opinion, as I made quite clear.  Predictions are nothing more than opinions (Long Island Mediums aside) as none are FACT.  But some predictions/opinions are better than others because they are based on FACTS.

    FACT.  Turns out that bettors beat the Vegas odds this past football season.  Either there was just an inordinant amount of luck, or people made bets based on better data (FACTS).  For instance:  you should always bet on the west coast team to beat the spread on the east coast host if the game is a night game.  The FACT is that the West coast team beats the spread a statistically significant amount of the time.  But predicting that that will always be the case would be wrong.  It is NOT a FACT that they ALWAYS win.  It is just good judgement to predict that they will beat the point spread and to place your money on said prediction.

    I am willing to place my money on the prediction that the Sox win more than 69 games next season.  I am willing to do so because they will have a better manager, better (functioning) coaching staff, improved depth in the bullpen, starting rotation and catching corps, as much production out of Gomes as they did C. Ross, have better talent in Victorino than in Nava/Kalsih/Podsednik et al in RF, will have Middlebrooks and Ells healthy and back in the lineup, and one hopes Napoli will play at 1st becuase he is is far better than Loney (offensiviely at least).  I also believe Steven Drew is a better talent than Mike Aviles, though I thought Aviles was decent. 

    Manager/coaches, starting pitching, relief pitching (especially closer), 1B, catching, SS, 3B and all the outfield spots were all trouble spots last year that are improved this year.  Some of that is opinion, I grant you.  But Ells and Middlebrooks being recovered from injury is FACT.  D. Ross improving the depth at catcher is FACT.  Napoli being a better offensive player than Loney is FACT.  Hanrahan and Uehara providing depth and better closer options in the bullpen is opinion based on FACT (look up the statistics on all 3--Aceves was a terrible closer last season).  Dempster being depth at the back end of the rotation is opinion based on FACT.  Doubront was not bad, but he pitched 160 innings (FACT) and the increase in innings was much greater than 50% over what he pitched the year before (FACT--it was actually close to 1500% increase).  Counting on him pitching 190-200 innings would be foolish.  Counting on Dempster to do the same is not foolish (since the FACT is he has done it for 5 out of the last 6 years).

    Will all these guys do better than the guys last year, or even match their own career norms?  No.  But it is foolish to bet against each one doing that, knowing the FACTS.  Do I believe Ben is done?  No.  (Another reason that I predict that the Sox will win more games than they did in 2012.)  It is January 4th, and the Napoli situation isn't even settled.  This team's 40-man roster will look different come February 20th.  Is that a prediction?  Yes.  Is it based on FACT?  Yes.  The FACT is that almost every team's 40-man roster looks different in the third week of February than it does in the first week of January.  And more different still by opening day.  Unlike some here, I trust that Ben will make moves to improve the roster, not ruin it.  If that makes me a homer, so be it.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Helloitsmeagain's comment:

    I think it's funny how some project almost all the prospects to be MLB starters.

    They are prospects and most don't become full time MLB starters. You have to get really lucky for that to happen.



    Who said that?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ben is afraid to fail...therefore he will not succeed....his entire philosophy is risk aversion and it is couched in the phony terms of "protecting" the draft picks...a very convenient way of saying that if we lose, we will be better in the future...

    bootlicking dumb...

    yaddayaddayadda.  I could be swayed by your obtuse assertions if you provided an alternative that is smarter than what Cherrington is doing right now.  Is it to stake the next five or six years on the almost-ace-like shoulders of Grienke and/or 120-game-a-year-champ Hamilton?  Risk aversion was the only way to play it this off-season.  Tell me the way to succeed and I will re-examine my stance.  At the moment, I think it is actually you who are bootlicking dumb.

    there was nothing obtuse about my opinion on what shouldve been done..you your self said it was a decent plan, remember, Keep it simple ? - look up the thread. Have you been sprinkling ganja on your cereal like your namesake to forget what you presviously wrote?

    ben has basically squandered the entire savings of that gift trade made possible by Magic Johnson with mediocre thirty-something players...you would rather have drew and napoli than anabel sanchez? Victorino, Ross, Dempsey over grienke?  there was a simple choice and Ben blew it...




     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to georom4's comment:

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to georom4's comment:

    ben is afraid to fail...therefore he will not succeed....his entire philosophy is risk aversion and it is couched in the phony terms of "protecting" the draft picks...a very convenient way of saying that if we lose, we will be better in the future...

    bootlicking dumb...

    yaddayaddayadda.  I could be swayed by your obtuse assertions if you provided an alternative that is smarter than what Cherrington is doing right now.  Is it to stake the next five or six years on the almost-ace-like shoulders of Grienke and/or 120-game-a-year-champ Hamilton?  Risk aversion was the only way to play it this off-season.  Tell me the way to succeed and I will re-examine my stance.  At the moment, I think it is actually you who are bootlicking dumb.

    there was nothing obtuse about my opinion on what shouldve been done..you your self said it was a decent plan, remember, Keep it simple ? - look up the thread. Have you been sprinkling ganja on your cereal like your namesake to forget what you presviously wrote?

    ben has basically squandered the entire savings of that gift trade made possible by Magic Johnson with mediocre thirty-something players...you would rather have drew and napoli than anabel sanchez? Victorino, Ross, Dempsey over grienke?  there was a simple choice and Ben blew it...






    Why, yes I have been sprinkling ganja on my cereal.  But I haven't forgotten our previous parlays.  And I don't get the squander thing.  The Sox have a certain annual payroll threshold.  The way I see it, it would be squandering resources not to use the full allotment.  You cant roll that money into payroll for the next year if you care about lux threshold (which they do).  

    And, as you are referring to it, it would indeed be sqaundering Magic's gift if they turned around and tied up long-term moneys on unsure long-term bets like grienke, hamilton, or second rate guys like sanchez.  But, they offered short deals so they are not tied up long-term.  

    So, again, I ask, what specifically would your plan have been?  Not "he is bottlicking dumb because ... (obtuse)", but "he would have been smart if he had done (Blank)"

     
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