1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You missed the best plan: get rid of all players that will not be here or be productive in 2014 and beyond by trading themn for prospects or players near their prime and under team control for 3+ years. Sign younger FAs who will be in their prime by 2014 and 2015. And, if we are going to spend millions and millions on a weak FA class, at least get one that will still be productive in 2014, 2015 and beyond, even if in decline.

    [/QUOTE]

    The list of younger FAs who will be in their prime by 2014 and 2015 was a pretty short list, wasn't it?

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, and we got none. We spent huge on a weak FA class and got the wrong ones.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Ben Cheringtom's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Ben Cheringtom's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Elsbury's stock is high?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

     

    Here is what I actually wrote:  whose value is probably higher now than at the end of this year.

    No, his stock is not especially high, but by the end of the year it will IMO be even lower. He should be traded as part of a package to get some good young pitching prospects.

    [/QUOTE]


     

     

     

    and on another thread you want the farm restocked

    hypocrite.

    Your drivel here is worse than it is on other boards.

    [/QUOTE]

    You are having trouble reading English again. My opinion is consistent. You should try acting like an adult and leave the personal stuff out of your posts.

    [/QUOTE]


     

     

    guess talksox does not ring a bell?

    [/QUOTE]


    I am not going to discuss TalkSox with you or anyone else here. Its irrelevant

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    we won 69 games last year...would 81 games won be a success? hardly....sometimes i think folks totally forget about the actual team they are discussing in these forums....unless ben is a wizard of sorts and turns aged players into studs, how can this team contend?

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    So, Ben is successful because all the players he signed are not good enough or not signed to a long enough term to keep back any prospects.

    Think about what you are saying.

    The guys we signed did not make us serious contenders in 2013 and have "no impact" on us being any better in 2014 and beyond. What is good about this plan?

    (Other than anything we may get by trading them.)

    [/QUOTE]

    The players signed all have the potential to be above average players next year.  They aren't all-stars but they are solid players who will supplement the guys who are capable of being all-stars like Lester, Buchholz, Ortiz, Pedroia.  It's been said many times, you don't need a team full of all-stars to contend for a title. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Victorino and Dempster? Above average players? The odds of that happening are pretty slim. I would rather have seen some of our minor leaguers come up and play and stay away from their absurd contracts. They bring little to the long term plan.

     
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  6. This post has been removed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Ben Cheringtom's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Ben Cheringtom's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Ben Cheringtom's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Elsbury's stock is high?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

     

    Here is what I actually wrote:  whose value is probably higher now than at the end of this year.

    No, his stock is not especially high, but by the end of the year it will IMO be even lower. He should be traded as part of a package to get some good young pitching prospects.

    [/QUOTE]


     

     

     

    and on another thread you want the farm restocked

    hypocrite.

    Your drivel here is worse than it is on other boards.

    [/QUOTE]

    You are having trouble reading English again. My opinion is consistent. You should try acting like an adult and leave the personal stuff out of your posts.

    [/QUOTE]


     

     

    guess talksox does not ring a bell?

    [/QUOTE]


    I am not going to discuss TalkSox with you or anyone else here. Its irrelevant

    [/QUOTE]


     

     

    not any more than you are,

    [/QUOTE]

    You have earned a spot on my manual ignore list because of your incessant personal drivel. I am not interested in that sort of thing, but by all means, keep making a fool of yourself here.

     
  8. This post has been removed.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't agree with your "best plan" for several reasons:

    • I don't think it's realistic to expect a billion dollar corporation to throw in the towel on a season; 

       Newsflash: they already have, but did enough to convince many of you otherwise. We are pretenders and nothing more. Also, my plan did make us better in 2013, in fact, I think even better than what we have now.

    • I don't think it's necessary, either;  we disagree on the upside of this team.  I think my upside (86-90 wins) could make the playoffs, and if Buch and Lester return to form this team could win it all.  Not will, not a high probability, but could.  And I think to achieve that without sacrificing picks/prospects would be a great achievement; 

      My top plan did not invole signing any FAs that cost us a pick. It did involve a trade of some prospects to get J Upton or B Anderson, but by trading away Ellsbury, Breslow and Salty, some of those prospects would have been replaced. 

    • Younger FAs?  How many <30 FAs are there?  Ever?  The oldest positional player signed (3 years), Victorino, will probably be one of the fittest and fastest guys on the team.  Napoli - assuming he's signed - would be a 33-year old first baseman when his contract runs out.  The rest are 1-2 year contracts.  That's just not a lot of risk, IMO;

       Yes, there were younger FAs than the ones we signed. Victorino may already be in the midst of a decline, and while he is very fit, his type of profile do not normally age well.

      It's not about risk. I understand the advantage of short contracts. My point was that Dempster and Napoli do nothing to help us in 2014 or 2015, except to get out of the way for our prospects. To me, that is a lame argument.

    • Finally, trade whom, exactly, for "players near their prime and under team control for 3+ years".  Players like that command top, healthy talent with some control themselves.  All we have that would bring in "players near their prime and under team control for 3+ years" are Pedroia, Lester and Buchholz.  I would not trade them now...they can contribute for us for a few more years.  Ells?  I agree with your judgement about trading now cum-pick (assuming another team assumes they will make a qualifying offer, of course) but the Sox think they have a chance bettered with him.  And I agree.

     I gave several very specific examples of who to trade for B Anderson, Upton, and even Myers or Stanton when I heard they were trade bait. I realize it cost us prospects, but the guys we would have gotten would have helped us much more in 2013 than anyone we got, but more importantly, they'd be in the peak of their prime by 2015 (except maybe Myers might still be pre-prime).

    Simply put, the plan should have been to...

    1) Build up the farm by trading players who will not be here in 2014 and maybe some by 2015 (Elssbury, Breslow, Salty, Bailey, Miller...)

    2) Keep all draft picks by not signing big-named FAs, but if we were going to spend this many millions on a weak FA class, at least sign a guy like Hamilton or A Sanchez who, although hamilton will be past prime for his last years, will still be highly prodiuctive in 2015 and beyond. (perhaps worth losing a pick over).

    3) Sign younger FAs that may be gambles, but who will be in their primes by 2014 and 2015. (I suggested McCarthy at $25M/3 and A Pagan at $41M/4, but also think $82M/5 for A Sanchez would have been a move that was better than what we did.)

    4) Sign some 1 year players like Uehara, and maybe a couple 2 year deals like D Ross & Gomez.

     

    Fans would be just as happy.

    We'd be better than we are for 2013.

    We'd be much better going into 2014 and beyond.

    [/QUOTE]

    Who cares what Dempster won't do for us in 2015?  His contract expires after 2014 and his salary can be reinvested that winter.  Why is it so unreasonable to think Napoli will produce as a 33-year old 1B in 2015?

    You throw out phrases like "lame argument" yet claim that "Ellsbury, Breslow, Salty, Bailey, Miller" have significant trade value.  Three of them have one year of control left (two of whom definitely will not get a QO), two of them had terrible, injury-ruined seasons in 2012, one of them has been rubbish his entire career then had a few decent months out of the bullpen.  If you think you can trade the likes of them to the 1940s St. Louis Browns for Junior Stevens & Ellis Kinder or the 1930s Philadelphia Athletics for Jimmy Foxx & Lefty Grove by all means put in a call to Ben Cherrington.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't agree with your "best plan" for several reasons:

    • I don't think it's realistic to expect a billion dollar corporation to throw in the towel on a season; 

       Newsflash: they already have, but did enough to convince many of you otherwise. We are pretenders and nothing more. Also, my plan did make us better in 2013, in fact, I think even better than what we have now.

    • I don't think it's necessary, either;  we disagree on the upside of this team.  I think my upside (86-90 wins) could make the playoffs, and if Buch and Lester return to form this team could win it all.  Not will, not a high probability, but could.  And I think to achieve that without sacrificing picks/prospects would be a great achievement; 

      My top plan did not invole signing any FAs that cost us a pick. It did involve a trade of some prospects to get J Upton or B Anderson, but by trading away Ellsbury, Breslow and Salty, some of those prospects would have been replaced. 

    • Younger FAs?  How many <30 FAs are there?  Ever?  The oldest positional player signed (3 years), Victorino, will probably be one of the fittest and fastest guys on the team.  Napoli - assuming he's signed - would be a 33-year old first baseman when his contract runs out.  The rest are 1-2 year contracts.  That's just not a lot of risk, IMO;

       Yes, there were younger FAs than the ones we signed. Victorino may already be in the midst of a decline, and while he is very fit, his type of profile do not normally age well.

      It's not about risk. I understand the advantage of short contracts. My point was that Dempster and Napoli do nothing to help us in 2014 or 2015, except to get out of the way for our prospects. To me, that is a lame argument.

    • Finally, trade whom, exactly, for "players near their prime and under team control for 3+ years".  Players like that command top, healthy talent with some control themselves.  All we have that would bring in "players near their prime and under team control for 3+ years" are Pedroia, Lester and Buchholz.  I would not trade them now...they can contribute for us for a few more years.  Ells?  I agree with your judgement about trading now cum-pick (assuming another team assumes they will make a qualifying offer, of course) but the Sox think they have a chance bettered with him.  And I agree.

     I gave several very specific examples of who to trade for B Anderson, Upton, and even Myers or Stanton when I heard they were trade bait. I realize it cost us prospects, but the guys we would have gotten would have helped us much more in 2013 than anyone we got, but more importantly, they'd be in the peak of their prime by 2015 (except maybe Myers might still be pre-prime).

    Simply put, the plan should have been to...

    1) Build up the farm by trading players who will not be here in 2014 and maybe some by 2015 (Elssbury, Breslow, Salty, Bailey, Miller...)

    2) Keep all draft picks by not signing big-named FAs, but if we were going to spend this many millions on a weak FA class, at least sign a guy like Hamilton or A Sanchez who, although hamilton will be past prime for his last years, will still be highly prodiuctive in 2015 and beyond. (perhaps worth losing a pick over).

    3) Sign younger FAs that may be gambles, but who will be in their primes by 2014 and 2015. (I suggested McCarthy at $25M/3 and A Pagan at $41M/4, but also think $82M/5 for A Sanchez would have been a move that was better than what we did.)

    4) Sign some 1 year players like Uehara, and maybe a couple 2 year deals like D Ross & Gomez.

     

    Fans would be just as happy.

    We'd be better than we are for 2013.

    We'd be much better going into 2014 and beyond.

    [/QUOTE]

    Who cares what Dempster won't do for us in 2015?  His contract expires after 2014 and his salary can be reinvested that winter.  Why is it so unreasonable to think Napoli will produce as a 33-year old 1B in 2015?

    You throw out phrases like "lame argument" yet claim that "Ellsbury, Breslow, Salty, Bailey, Miller" have significant trade value.  Three of them have one year of control left (two of whom definitely will not get a QO), two of them had terrible, injury-ruined seasons in 2012, one of them has been rubbish his entire career then had a few decent months out of the bullpen.  If you think you can trade the likes of them to the 1940s St. Louis Browns for Junior Stevens & Ellis Kinder or the 1930s Philadelphia Athletics for Jimmy Foxx & Lefty Grove by all means put in a call to Ben Cherrington.

    [/QUOTE]

    Hey sonic....quit making sense. Moon's has officially joined the doom and bloomers club. Lost on him is that this club is much improved over last year and positioned to add impact players as early as this seasons trade deadline. Sorry Moon I have great respect for your knowledge of the game. however your post on almost every thread has been critical and written from a half empty perspective....lighten up and try to find some positives in what Ben's trying to accomplish...

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Ben Cheringtom's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    So, Ben is successful because all the players he signed are not good enough or not signed to a long enough term to keep back any prospects.

    Think about what you are saying.

    The guys we signed did not make us serious contenders in 2013 and have "no impact" on us being any better in 2014 and beyond. What is good about this plan?

    (Other than anything we may get by trading them.)

    [/QUOTE]

    The players signed all have the potential to be above average players next year.  They aren't all-stars but they are solid players who will supplement the guys who are capable of being all-stars like Lester, Buchholz, Ortiz, Pedroia.  It's been said many times, you don't need a team full of all-stars to contend for a title. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Victorino and Dempster? Above average players? The odds of that happening are pretty slim. I would rather have seen some of our minor leaguers come up and play and stay away from their absurd contracts. They bring little to the long term plan.

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Long term?

    They signed long term deals?

    Seriouslly. Head back to that echo chamber you usually post in.

    [/QUOTE]

    He didn't say we signed them longterm. He said their signings did nothing for our longterm plan (the truth).

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    In response to Ben Cheringtom's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    So, Ben is successful because all the players he signed are not good enough or not signed to a long enough term to keep back any prospects.

    Think about what you are saying.

    The guys we signed did not make us serious contenders in 2013 and have "no impact" on us being any better in 2014 and beyond. What is good about this plan?

    (Other than anything we may get by trading them.)

    [/QUOTE]

    The players signed all have the potential to be above average players next year.  They aren't all-stars but they are solid players who will supplement the guys who are capable of being all-stars like Lester, Buchholz, Ortiz, Pedroia.  It's been said many times, you don't need a team full of all-stars to contend for a title. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Victorino and Dempster? Above average players? The odds of that happening are pretty slim. I would rather have seen some of our minor leaguers come up and play and stay away from their absurd contracts. They bring little to the long term plan.

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Long term?

    They signed long term deals?

    Seriouslly. Head back to that echo chamber you usually post in.

    [/QUOTE]

    He didn't say we signed them longterm. He said their signings did nothing for our longterm plan (the truth).

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: If 2013 proves to be a failure......

    Who cares what Dempster won't do for us in 2015?  His contract expires after 2014 and his salary can be reinvested that winter.  Why is it so unreasonable to think Napoli will produce as a 33-year old 1B in 2015?

     

    The Dempster money could have been spent on a player that would be here in 2015.

    The Naps money could have been spent on a player in his prime in 2015.

    Yes, Naps and Victorino could be slightly helpful in 2015, but at $26M combined for that year? Come on! You and I both know we could do better for our future than those 2.

     

    You throw out phrases like "lame argument" yet claim that "Ellsbury, Breslow, Salty, Bailey, Miller" have significant trade value.  Three of them have one year of control left (two of whom definitely will not get a QO), two of them had terrible, injury-ruined seasons in 2012, one of them has been rubbish his entire career then had a few decent months out of the bullpen.  If you think you can trade the likes of them to the 1940s St. Louis Browns for Junior Stevens & Ellis Kinder or the 1930s Philadelphia Athletics for Jimmy Foxx & Lefty Grove by all means put in a call to Ben Cherrington.

    I ahve seen what 2 monht rental players get at the July deadline. I am certain Ellsbury and his attached draft pick would bring back significant prospects. Breslow, Salty and the 2 year controlled players bailey and Miller could bring us moderate to good prospects. Would all these prospects replace what we would have given up for B Anderson or Upton? I'd say no, but they'd lessen the impact on our farm, and we'd have a player entering his prime with us for 3 years.

    [/QUOTE]

    Hey sonic....quit making sense. Moon's has officially joined the doom and bloomers club. Lost on him is that this club is much improved over last year and positioned to add impact players as early as this seasons trade deadline. Sorry Moon I have great respect for your knowledge of the game. however your post on almost every thread has been critical and written from a half empty perspective....lighten up and try to find some positives in what Ben's trying to accomplish...

    I started a "positive thread", but I'm sorry if reality is getting in the way for you. Of course we will be better in 2013. I have never said or implied otherwise.

    I have been critical but optimistic in the past, but last winter I said no more. I knew we needed another ace-type SP and probably a 3/4 slot RH'd batter to have a legitimate chance at a ring. I gave up the wishful thinking that Beckett, Lester, and Buch would all do something they'd never done before: all stay healthy and pitch well for the same season. I heard the same criticism from posters last spring.

    Now, we don't even have Beckett for his odd year greatness, and you expect me to be more cheery than last winter? You are looking at an empty glass and calling it half full. I am looking at a quarter full glass and calling it a quarter full glass.

     

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