If Bobby gets Fired

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    I understand the idea that it was time for Francona to move on after last season.  That said, I honestly believe that had Francona returned, the returning players would have realized the error of their ways after September, and they would have tried really hard to atone for their taking advantage of Francona and for their embarrassing collapse.

    Going to the opposite extreme in Valentine was never a good idea.  I hope Lucchino has the guts to admit his mistake and fire Valentine at the end of the season, if not sooner.  IMO, Lucchino is the main reason why Valentine has not already been fired.



    I don't know if Tito could've contended this year with the injuries, but his worse season, missing tons of players, was 86 wins, and not shooting for a top-5 pick.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    In response to royf19z comment:

    roy, I was at the Sox-Angels finale on Thursday. This is exactly how many things BV did that game...he posted the lineup, he had Jerry Royster hand the lineup card to the umpz...He then sat on the front railing for all 9 inningz. He had no one warm up and let Lester throw a complete game (Lester had already dug hiz (can't use the word here) after 3 inningz of terrible location). He had 2 opportunitiez to use a pinch hitter, the biggest in the 9th with Mauro Gomez on the bench after a 3-single game. He still did nothing. His contribution to the game that night as a manager was that my elementary school age child could have managed the team that night the same way. Make no changes and just stayed sedintary there. If that's what people want to defend or say "to be fair" which seemz to be the constant preface to anything BV, then continue. This guy has been mailing it in now since the Blockbuster. Now, he's not even trying at all. He is content to see this team lose az many games az possible in Sept. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    In response to royf19z comment:

    roy, I was at the Sox-Angels finale on Thursday. This is exactly how many things BV did that game...he posted the lineup, he had Jerry Royster hand the lineup card to the umpz...He then sat on the front railing for all 9 inningz. He had no one warm up and let Lester throw a complete game (Lester had already dug hiz (can't use the word here) after 3 inningz of terrible location). He had 2 opportunitiez to use a pinch hitter, the biggest in the 9th with Mauro Gomez on the bench after a 3-single game. He still did nothing. His contribution to the game that night as a manager was that my elementary school age child could have managed the team that night the same way. Make no changes and just stayed sedintary there. If that's what people want to defend or say "to be fair" which seemz to be the constant preface to anything BV, then continue. This guy has been mailing it in now since the Blockbuster. Now, he's not even trying at all. He is content to see this team lose az many games az possible in Sept. 



    Settle down Danny. I wasn't commenting good or bad about what Bobby V. is doing now. I was just pointing out the fact that the Sox are missing a couple of key hitters in the lineup who could be helping, regardless of what Bobby V. is doing or not doing.

    And there's nothing wrong with "being fair" in a critique. More people should try it. I've already said he should go. I felt he was wrong at the time but was willing to give him a chance, but he's done nothing this year that has impressed me. But at the same time, there's nothing wrong with pointing out the challenges that any manager would have had this season.

    I know you don't like him, and that's fine. We're in agreement that he needs to go. But you'd add the credibility to your case if you would at least acknowledge that his managing isn't the only reason for this season's record, nor the main reason. He can be the wrong person for the job and there can be other reasons for this disaster too. The too aren't mutally exclusive.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    But see I don't agree with that. I do think he helped create a very poor environment (much worse than Tito's demise) and I think he daily added to the mess. His presence became almost like Us v. Them instead of the manager takes responsibility for not motivating or creating a place for the players to thrive. Of course, the pitching has been brutal all year, but the Sox answer was fire the pitching coach--at least Doubront and Buchholz did well with McClure. BV is the one who doesn't talk to coaches, medical staff or even the players as we can tell from CC and a few others. 17 guys wanted him out--as best as I can tell that story is true. Hard to gain a positive clubhouse or dugout when you have guys who have zero respect for the manager. None. Francona may have been disrespected in a different way, but BV was flat out, openly, criticized and publicly shown disrespect. Other fans are the ones running Fire BV threads. I stopped doing it after the AGOn TRADE because it's clear the FO gave up too. Now BV  has mailed it in and others are attacking him. I'm just posting things that I've noticed about BV in his job as manager. He is as JoeBreidy has said--probably the worst manager in baseball. He's taken that title to a new level in my opinion.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    The reason I'm mad is that it was clear as day 4 months ago that he was a terrible, terrible fit, and too many people, media included at the time, were givinng him a free pass. I think that's what bothers me. That he got to outlast 4 or 5 all-star players who I enjoyed rooting for and instead got stuck with Pawston. Cherington/LL also take a lot of my wrath, but they won't get fired anytime soon.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    I just wish we could have seen maybe a different manager replace BV. And seen what would have happened BEFORE they blew up the team. Instead 3 Votes of Confidence, then the Blockbuster salary dump.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    To me, now we will never know if maybe, just maybe it was what manager you put in charge of that group that might have snapped them out of the doldrums. Going polar opposite from Tito was wrong from the beginning--but that's how the Players Are Evil became a regular thing in this forum and in the media too. A Duck Boat parade by fans on the day of the Blockbuster. I was sickened by it.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    But see I don't agree with that. I do think he helped create a very poor environment (much worse than Tito's demise) and I think he daily added to the mess. His presence became almost like Us v. Them instead of the manager takes responsibility for not motivating or creating a place for the players to thrive. Of course, the pitching has been brutal all year, but the Sox answer was fire the pitching coach--at least Doubront and Buchholz did well with McClure. BV is the one who doesn't talk to coaches, medical staff or even the players as we can tell from CC and a few others. 17 guys wanted him out--as best as I can tell that story is true. Hard to gain a positive clubhouse or dugout when you have guys who have zero respect for the manager. None. Francona may have been disrespected in a different way, but BV was flat out, openly, criticized and publicly shown disrespect. Other fans are the ones running Fire BV threads. I stopped doing it after the AGOn TRADE because it's clear the FO gave up too. Now BV  has mailed it in and others are attacking him. I'm just posting things that I've noticed about BV in his job as manager. He is as JoeBreidy has said--probably the worst manager in baseball. He's taken that title to a new level in my opinion.



    I am amazed that people ever thought he was a good fit in the fitst place.  He is snarky.  He is abrasive.  This column actually states that Valentine is the most abrasive manager ever.  

    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120901/OPINION03/209010393/Commentary-Bobby-Valentine-has-Red-Sox-spinning-their-wheels-mud?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CSports%7Cs

    He is and was a huge mistake.

    None of that means that this season is his fault.  It does mean that he is bad at his job.



     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    Very good post, snake. And unlike what pumpsie thinks, I really did give BV a chance. I had no idea he would be that bad, but he was. And he is. And 10 years removed from MLB made him a fossil to the kids. It's just sad out there. I feel like guys who are there now will be permanently ruined because they found out what it means to be led by a non-leader, a passive aggressive idiot whose latest line was embarrassing Aceves in a quote about Pedroia being a baseball player and Alfredo being Alfredo...it was classless by BV. But we know that is his M.O.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    Very good post, snake. And unlike what pumpsie thinks, I really did give BV a chance. I had no idea he would be that bad, but he was. And he is. And 10 years removed from MLB made him a fossil to the kids. It's just sad out there. I feel like guys who are there now will be permanently ruined because they found out what it means to be led by a non-leader, a passive aggressive idiot whose latest line was embarrassing Aceves in a quote about Pedroia being a baseball player and Alfredo being Alfredo...it was classless by BV. But we know that is his M.O.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    Good post, Roy. I, as Joe Breidy said in another thread,  saw how BV handled the media and players, while managing the Mets in NY. While I thought from the beginning he was the wrong man for the job, hoped I was wrong and went into it with an open mind. I think basically he's in over his head in Boston and has let it get the best of him. He looks as worn out and ready for the season to end, as the rest of us. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    In response to dannycater comment:

    But see I don't agree with that. I do think he helped create a very poor environment (much worse than Tito's demise) and I think he daily added to the mess. His presence became almost like Us v. Them instead of the manager takes responsibility for not motivating or creating a place for the players to thrive. Of course, the pitching has been brutal all year, but the Sox answer was fire the pitching coach--at least Doubront and Buchholz did well with McClure. BV is the one who doesn't talk to coaches, medical staff or even the players as we can tell from CC and a few others. 17 guys wanted him out--as best as I can tell that story is true. Hard to gain a positive clubhouse or dugout when you have guys who have zero respect for the manager. None. Francona may have been disrespected in a different way, but BV was flat out, openly, criticized and publicly shown disrespect. Other fans are the ones running Fire BV threads. I stopped doing it after the AGOn TRADE because it's clear the FO gave up too. Now BV  has mailed it in and others are attacking him. I'm just posting things that I've noticed about BV in his job as manager. He is as JoeBreidy has said--probably the worst manager in baseball. He's taken that title to a new level in my opinion.



    I agree with that (in bold). Where have I ever said otherwise. (In fact the entire post).

    But that has nothing to do with the fact that the Sox never had their entire lineup in a game this season (before the trade). It has nothing to do with Bailey getting hurt, which forced Aceves into the closing role. It has nothing to do with Lester's performance, nor IMO Beckett's. I agree with Lou Merloni that Beckett has health issues. Beckett was decent before the DL but since the DL he's really struggled. I think he still has shoulder issues.

    If the Sox had the right manager, I think the record (before the trade) might have been a bit better. But not significantly because of the issues that are out of the manager's control.

    By the same token, if the Sox had better health and at least Lester pitching as expected -- with everything else including Bailey's injury -- the record would have been better regardless of Bobby V. managing.

    There are two things at work here. A manager controls only so much. A different manager no doubt would have helped the season, but there still were considerable issues that are out of a manager's control.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    For some reason, this program for the board does not like the the letter sssss by itself.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from michaelsjr. Show michaelsjr's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    Hard for me to understand why so many BV haters here.  Nobody knows what he could have done if he'd been allowed his own coaching staff and didnt have almost every regular starter on DL ice for most of the year.  Everybody wants to act like somehow he should have made magic with bench players and dreadful pitching...that it proves he's not a "good fit".  There were hundreds of posts on the forum last year about wanting Tito gone.  Now folks actually want him rehired as if he could have had a winning season this year.  He couldn't get a healthy team to hold a sure-bet lead for post-season last year.  But you think he would have made it to post season with this injured and sullen team?  They were sullen last year and BV was no where close to the clubhouse.

    Getting paid millions doesn't mean you can put personal vendettas ahead of the team.  They may very well fire BV, but if I were the owner I'd get rid of the players who insist on carrying grudges because they are putting themselves ahead of the team and will not be consistent winners.   I'd tell them to grow up or get lost.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    In response to michaelsjr's comment:

    Hard for me to understand why so many BV haters here.  Nobody knows what he could have done if he'd been allowed his own coaching staff and didnt have almost every regular starter on DL ice for most of the year.  Everybody wants to act like somehow he should have made magic with bench players and dreadful pitching...that it proves he's not a "good fit".  There were hundreds of posts on the forum last year about wanting Tito gone.  Now folks actually want him rehired as if he could have had a winning season this year.  He couldn't get a healthy team to hold a sure-bet lead for post-season last year.  But you think he would have made it to post season with this injured and sullen team?  They were sullen last year and BV was no where close to the clubhouse.

    Getting paid millions doesn't mean you can put personal vendettas ahead of the team.  They may very well fire BV, but if I were the owner I'd get rid of the players who insist on carrying grudges because they are putting themselves ahead of the team and will not be consistent winners.   I'd tell them to grow up or get lost.


    Your remarks come close to expressing my own sentiments.
    The Sox came to ST a team demoralized of its own doing. BV was supposed to perk them up and straighten them out. For one thing, that's not how human psychology works -- and definitely not how sports works, based on my own experience as player, coach, and observer. For another even more important thing, BV did not have (ahem ) the full cooperation of all the players from the start. A few said they liked the way he as running thinks. Youk said that "we're going over stuff we'd probably forgotten. Beckett liked how BV was conditioning the pitchers. Regular reports described the routines as crisp and efficient. Sounds to me as though after reaching out to many of the players with personal visits, BV was trying to whip them into shape. After the historic tank job in 2011, BV should have been authorized to use real whips -- or rusty chains. But that club had "loser" inscribed on its hearts. And for good reason. That does not go away quickly or easily.
    Then there was all the stuff about dissing and calling out and gaffes, right up to the current flap about Aceves, that model of emotional stability. The truth is that most of this stuff has been run-of-the-mill in professional baseball. and more incendiary in any number of cases, and to say it was blown out of proportion by press and some fans is an understatement.
    People ( like Kimmi ) are still talking about the "clubhouse" and "lack of respect." I have twice before on this board challenged people to provide CONCRETE indisputable evidence to support such serious allegations. Once again, to them. What do you know about the clubhouse, and how have you come to know it, specifically?  Feel free to cite the players. They are on the record, more than once. Which players do not respect BV? How, specifically, do you know this? I mean really know it. ( "Gee, Petey took a picture of BV sleeping." "Aceves showed him up." Aceves! Please. ) Unless you can back up what you say with compelling evidence, perhaps you should stop saying it, especially in asides or in raw declarative assertions as if ex cathedra. 
    This team was a psychological train wreck coming into the season, and has been a physical train wreck ever since. Several key players underperformed, including the two top pitchers on the staff.
    BV has even been blamed for that. "A better manager would have...." Etc. Much more likely, IMO, is that they were still under the miasma as a carry over from 2011.  All of that was their responsibility. They got their talisman manager canned. Now they may make it two in a row. 
    Managers are not psychotherapists or brain surgeons. And they cannot make grown men ( or semi-grown ) cooperate. For goodness, college coaches cannot always make nineteen-year-olds cooperate. I've seen it. 
    IMO, by and large BV has been a good tactical manager. Some of the second-guessing has been so out there that it suggests strongly a virulent personal animus that renders judgment null and void. ( Snakeoil, honest guy that he is, said, "I just don't like the guy." ) By and large BV has done an excellent job with the bullpen. 
    Overall, IMO, he's been more sinned against than sinning. 
    The Boston Red Sox are a bad baseball team at the moment. Anyone who really believes that another manager ( Terry? Yikes ) would have done better, even a little better, with this collection, including the ones now departed, is dreaming. 
    In the immortal words of a ten-year-old fan ( a nice little pitcher I'm working with ), "The Sox suck."  
    And Bobby did it to them. 
    But, but maybe down the road things will pick up. Pedey is showing signs that he may be growing up. And for the record, I agree with Moon that Gonzalez was a cry baby. Whatever else Beckett was, he was not a cry baby. He had a good last start in LA. I hope he has many more. Even if he slips, the fans won't boo him as he leaves the mound and the press won't rip him, as Ryan and Finn, the resident snark, mistaken for wit,  at the Glove, did on Globe 10.0.
    Let's hear evidence from the peanut gallery.  At least something that might barely pass muster as evidence. On SPECIFIC points. "Well, you can tell that X doesn't like Bobby. He never sits near him in the dugout." "Did you see Lester's face when Bobby took him out?" Uh, uh. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    In response to J-BAY's comment:

    Good post, Roy. I, as Joe Breidy said in another thread,  saw how BV handled the media and players, while managing the Mets in NY. While I thought from the beginning he was the wrong man for the job, hoped I was wrong and went into it with an open mind. I think basically he's in over his head in Boston and has let it get the best of him. He looks as worn out and ready for the season to end, as the rest of us. 



    Same here.  I wasn't a WMB or Ciriaco fan, but really hoped they would succeed.  Same with BV.  I didn't think he'd be successful based on everyone I knew about him, but I was predicting we'd make the playoffs until just a few week ago.  But he's been far worse in every respect than I possible imagined.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    And a Big One. BV is accused of being confrontational, but when he walks away from a confrontation with a player whose trolley may be down, he's called a wimp.
    That says a lot right there.
    Make up your minds.
    I'm still up for the beer, Danny, if you are. We can tell lies about our pitching exploits. My discourse, as Boom will tell you, will be all lies. All of it. Not just the part about losing a no-hitter when....
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    Note that I did not say that BV should not be let go -- if only for his own good. Frankly, I have no idea what should be done about or with or to this team. The mess has reached that point.
    But I doubt that the players, if consulted, will urge management to fire BV, if they have any sense, even that of self-protection. Talk about laughing-stock. On top of the history-making collapse last season, this bunch may be on the verge of deep-sixing a second manager, perhaps before the end of the season. "Yeah, I remember those Sox teams in 2011 and 2012. They were manager killers. What a bunch that was."  Try that on for a stigma.  Make no mistake. If and when the dust finally clears on all of this, soon or down the road, these Sox clubs will be remembered for their homicidal acumen as a result of their butchery on the field -- and goodness knows what off the field. 
    That has long been the lingering reputation of the Cleveland team that did in Oscar Vitt. 
    Best the players say, "It's our fault. We'll try to play better."
    Then if the brass thinks it's time for the axe to fall on BV, let it fall. But if the invisible hand of justice is in the vicinity, it will nudge the axe just enough to take some flesh from the guys wielding it.  They put this team together, then tried belatedly to clean up their own mess, financial and otherwise. But too late. 
    Seattle has some nice expensive digs -- with comfy beds. If BV is killed off, I hope the executioners at least have enough conscience to prevent sweet sleep from coming quickly. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    Since the Red Sox traded Shoppach they are 5-14, and have allowed 126 runs - 6.63 per game.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    I posted that on this thread by mistake and I can't delete it.  This new format is terrible so far.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired



    I'd rather see Charlie Sheen run the team than Valentine.   LOL
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    roy, I do think you make excellent points (always have). Everything is 20-20 hindsight now in terms of the team and it's record/performance. It's likely they will finish some 20 games below .500. One thing that is interesting is I wonder if BV is actually mad at the FO right now, not because of the stringing him along as he wonders if 2013 is going to happen, but it goes back to the Blockbuster. I think BV's biggest supporters, and I might be totally off here, but it makes sense (ex brought up how Beckett was supportive) included Beckett and AGON, two veteran players. Not that AGON was BV's biggest fan, but that he seemed to be OK with him. The media seemed to be AGON and Beckett's big enemies or reasons causing one to want to be traded (AGON did) and the other just bewildered by everything. They seemed to at least in some small way have BV's back. Pedroia too, if you believe his quotes, which I do. Manager and players are family, and the media is like the old aunt who must constantly bring up old garbage or old wounds....BV is not a good manager (anymore), but the organization helped set him up, as it did by setting up a potentially poor season by not fixing the starting pitching staff. Now they have some 20 positions to fill or fix by next season. It's just a disaster. I think BV should finish out the year now, but I'm worried the young players are progressively getting worse by the game. Not BV's fault, but it's another indictment on the FO and the scouting staff that has given the team way too many clunkers over the years. Gee, now I almost feel sorry for BV...but I can't because he keeps talking. He needs to shut up the last month of the year, then leave gracefully.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    In last post, I meant to say that BV probably felt very hurt that in one interview he was defending AGON as there's no chance he is going to be gone, and then the trade happens without any consultation or prior notice to BV. His small boat of supporters got smaller on the day of the trade. It also exposed BV a bit. So I think BV thinks he is in Living Hell and that his behavior now is like a guy who knows he will be gone at end of season. It's sad.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    Charlie wouldn't know who the players were...wait a second, I don't even know who the players are and I've been watching the team all year!! 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: If Bobby gets Fired

    I'm going to assume that the reports that the Valentine hire was strictly a Lucchino decision are accurate.  Lucchino is the guy who deserves the blame for this fiasco.  There was plenty of evidence that Valentine would be a poor choice.  Start with the fact that he hasn't managed an MLB team in 10 years and look at what he was walking into, and where...this was a crazy choice.  
     
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