If it came down to it....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    If it came down to it....

    I would start Butler over Lavarnway, .

    If the Sox are left with the options of lavarnway or Butler starting in 2014, I would pick Butler. Coming off a solid year both offensively and defensively, Id feel more comfortable going with the 27yo better defender. Probably have a few people scratching their heads, but I just dont trust Lavarnways defense for 100 games.

    Butler is much better defensively than Lavarnway, calls a better game (from all reports), showed some offensive gains last year, has a 30%+ CS, has shown a good OBP for a catcher and added a little power last year with 15hr.

    Vasquez is the superior defender over both these guys, but not quite ready yet. Maybe by mid-season or after the ASB.

    No, Butler nothing special, but if the choice came down to those 2, Id take Butler.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would start Butler over Lavarnway, .

    If the Sox are left with the options of lavarnway or Butler starting in 2014, I would pick Butler. Coming off a solid year both offensively and defensively, Id feel more comfortable going with the 27yo better defender. Probably have a few people scratching their heads, but I just dont trust Lavarnways defense for 100 games.

    Butler is much better defensively than Lavarnway, calls a better game (from all reports), showed some offensive gains last year, has a 30%+ CS, has shown a good OBP for a catcher and added a little power last year with 15hr.

    Vasquez is the superior defender over both these guys, but not quite ready yet. Maybe by mid-season or after the ASB.

    No, Butler nothing special, but if the choice came down to those 2, Id take Butler.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think the Sox will use or trade for the best possible compliment to Ross.  A player who can hit righties pretty well would be my guess.  Butler and Lav may not fit the bill

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would start Butler over Lavarnway, .

    If the Sox are left with the options of lavarnway or Butler starting in 2014, I would pick Butler. Coming off a solid year both offensively and defensively, Id feel more comfortable going with the 27yo better defender. Probably have a few people scratching their heads, but I just dont trust Lavarnways defense for 100 games.

    Butler is much better defensively than Lavarnway, calls a better game (from all reports), showed some offensive gains last year, has a 30%+ CS, has shown a good OBP for a catcher and added a little power last year with 15hr.

    Vasquez is the superior defender over both these guys, but not quite ready yet. Maybe by mid-season or after the ASB.

    No, Butler nothing special, but if the choice came down to those 2, Id take Butler.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think the Sox will use or trade for the best possible compliment to Ross.  A player who can hit righties pretty well would be my guess.  Butler and Lav may not fit the bill

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree craze. I was just giving the scinario if those were my 2 choices.

    As you can tell, Im not a fan of lavarnway being a FT catcher. I do like him and wish he would shift to 1b. Since they dont see him as a long term option, why not make him more flexable.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from billge. Show billge's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    Lavarnway pushing 27 at start of next season.  How much better will he get as a catcher  If he is not in the majors full tjme this year, when?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    Lavarnway appears to be a great example of what the team thought was going to be a first string, right handed, power hitting catcher for 10-12 years who has just not been able to get over that last hurdle yet.

    He is exactly why the Sox should not hesitate to sign Saltalamacchia for three years right now.  The three guys in the minors who they "think" are going to be ready in 2016 might just fall into the same situation that Lavarnway has been in for the last two seasons.  There just is no guarantee that Vasquez or Swihart or Butler (appears to be a career back up catcher in training) will be ready to be the starting catcher in Boston in 2016.

    Saltalamacchia is not the best ever catcher, but I cannot see a guy like Hanigan and his Mendoza line batting average as the answer for the next two years either.

    I would think that if either of the two young guys is ready to be the back up after Ross leaves in 2014 it would show pretty good progress for either guy.  If one of both can push Saltalamacchia to a reserve roll or traded in 2016 all the better.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    I think we'll come up with a veteran catcher one way or another...with Bogaerts, Middlebrooks, and JBJ all potential starters on opening day, plus Butler or Lavarnway behind the plate, that'd be a lot of inexperience in the lineup. I like the youth movement we have brewing, but too much at one time might not be such a good thing for a team with its sights on repeating.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to charliedarling's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Lavarnway appears to be a great example of what the team thought was going to be a first string, right handed, power hitting catcher for 10-12 years who has just not been able to get over that last hurdle yet.

    He is exactly why the Sox should not hesitate to sign Saltalamacchia for three years right now.  The three guys in the minors who they "think" are going to be ready in 2016 might just fall into the same situation that Lavarnway has been in for the last two seasons.  There just is no guarantee that Vasquez or Swihart or Butler (appears to be a career back up catcher in training) will be ready to be the starting catcher in Boston in 2016.

    Saltalamacchia is not the best ever catcher, but I cannot see a guy like Hanigan and his Mendoza line batting average as the answer for the next two years either.

    I would think that if either of the two young guys is ready to be the back up after Ross leaves in 2014 it would show pretty good progress for either guy.  If one of both can push Saltalamacchia to a reserve roll or traded in 2016 all the better.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    We have been stringing Lav around waiting for Salty to develop which I believe has hurt Lav at the big league level.  Regardless, we are currently stuck with two RHH catchers if Salty leaves so something has to give. 

    One of our biggest problems which I know sounds crazy coming off a WS victory is our constant over hype of young talent.  It's great to have potential but I think its time to trade a few prospects we may never need for one big long term fixture in the middle of our lineup.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    The three guys in the minors who they "think" are going to be ready in 2016 might just fall into the same situation that Lavarnway has been in for the last two seasons.  There just is no guarantee that Vasquez or Swihart or Butler (appears to be a career back up catcher in training) will be ready to be the starting catcher in Boston in 2016.

    If that was the case, you might as well stop drafting catchers.  This is the same with JBJ, as it was before him with Iggy and Pedey.  When you have good prospects, you have to give them a shot.  Teams that continue to chase vets just get real old, real fast.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    Vasquez is literally better defensively than anything we have right now and better than a lot of catchers in MLB right now. His offense took a step in the right direction last year, as the team told him to concentrate on it more. He trains with the Molinas in the offseason, and is spoken of highly. You can question the offense if you want, but the defense is there.

    Still some minor tweaking, which is why he needs another year at AAA. But if need be, Id have no issue with him playing. I believe eventually he could be a solid all around catcher in MLB.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Vasquez is literally better defensively than anything we have right now and better than a lot of catchers in MLB right now. His offense took a step in the right direction last year, as the team told him to concentrate on it more. He trains with the Molinas in the offseason, and is spoken of highly. You can question the offense if you want, but the defense is there.

    Still some minor tweaking, which is why he needs another year at AAA. But if need be, Id have no issue with him playing. I believe eventually he could be a solid all around catcher in MLB.

    [/QUOTE]

    Vasquez and Bogy are my choices to stick at this point for C and 3B.  JBJ doesn't look like someone who will supply us with Jacoby type stats right away and we all pretty much know what to expect from Middy barring a huge step forward.  1B, SS and the OF are still our biggest concerns in my opinion long term. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Vasquez is literally better defensively than anything we have right now and better than a lot of catchers in MLB right now. His offense took a step in the right direction last year, as the team told him to concentrate on it more. He trains with the Molinas in the offseason, and is spoken of highly. You can question the offense if you want, but the defense is there.

    Still some minor tweaking, which is why he needs another year at AAA. But if need be, Id have no issue with him playing. I believe eventually he could be a solid all around catcher in MLB.

    [/QUOTE]

    Vasquez and Bogy are my choices to stick at this point for C and 3B.  JBJ doesn't look like someone who will supply us with Jacoby type stats right away and we all pretty much know what to expect from Middy barring a huge step forward.  1B, SS and the OF are still our biggest concerns in my opinion long term. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Id bet on Xander to stick at SS if I were you. At least for the forseeable future.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would start Butler over Lavarnway, .

    If the Sox are left with the options of lavarnway or Butler starting in 2014, I would pick Butler. Coming off a solid year both offensively and defensively, Id feel more comfortable going with the 27yo better defender. Probably have a few people scratching their heads, but I just dont trust Lavarnways defense for 100 games.

    Butler is much better defensively than Lavarnway, calls a better game (from all reports), showed some offensive gains last year, has a 30%+ CS, has shown a good OBP for a catcher and added a little power last year with 15hr.

    Vasquez is the superior defender over both these guys, but not quite ready yet. Maybe by mid-season or after the ASB.

    No, Butler nothing special, but if the choice came down to those 2, Id take Butler.

    [/QUOTE]

    Lavarnway has succeeded at every level of play where he has been given a fair shot at the job. I would take him over someone who has proven himself to be "nothing special" in a heartbeat.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would start Butler over Lavarnway, .

    If the Sox are left with the options of lavarnway or Butler starting in 2014, I would pick Butler. Coming off a solid year both offensively and defensively, Id feel more comfortable going with the 27yo better defender. Probably have a few people scratching their heads, but I just dont trust Lavarnways defense for 100 games.

    Butler is much better defensively than Lavarnway, calls a better game (from all reports), showed some offensive gains last year, has a 30%+ CS, has shown a good OBP for a catcher and added a little power last year with 15hr.

    Vasquez is the superior defender over both these guys, but not quite ready yet. Maybe by mid-season or after the ASB.

    No, Butler nothing special, but if the choice came down to those 2, Id take Butler.

    [/QUOTE]

    Lavarnway has succeeded at every level of play where he has been given a fair shot at the job. I would take him over someone who has proven himself to be "nothing special" in a heartbeat.

    [/QUOTE]


    If you cant see how bad defensively he is, then I dont know what to say. He is terrible at blocking balls and scouts question his game calling abilities too. if they dont see him as their future starter, Im sure there is a good reason. They chose to play Salty more when Ross went down instead of Lavarnway. I have a feeling they dont value his catching skills much at all...They obviously see him more than you or I. Im guessing they dont see enough to give him a shot. Give the kid a 1b mit already.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would start Butler over Lavarnway, .

    If the Sox are left with the options of lavarnway or Butler starting in 2014, I would pick Butler. Coming off a solid year both offensively and defensively, Id feel more comfortable going with the 27yo better defender. Probably have a few people scratching their heads, but I just dont trust Lavarnways defense for 100 games.

    Butler is much better defensively than Lavarnway, calls a better game (from all reports), showed some offensive gains last year, has a 30%+ CS, has shown a good OBP for a catcher and added a little power last year with 15hr.

    Vasquez is the superior defender over both these guys, but not quite ready yet. Maybe by mid-season or after the ASB.

    No, Butler nothing special, but if the choice came down to those 2, Id take Butler.



    Lavarnway has succeeded at every level of play where he has been given a fair shot at the job. I would take him over someone who has proven himself to be "nothing special" in a heartbeat.

    [/QUOTE]


    If you cant see how bad defensively he is, then I dont know what to say. He is terrible at blocking balls and scouts question his game calling abilities too. if they dont see him as their future starter, Im sure there is a good reason. They chose to play Salty more when Ross went down instead of Lavarnway. I have a feeling they dont value his catching skills much at all...They obviously see him more than you or I. Im guessing they dont see enough to give him a shot. Give the kid a 1b mit already.

    [/QUOTE]


    This probably should have happened some time ago if they didn't see him as a catcher. If he doesn't make the major league team 2014 would be his fourth season in Triple-A. If he's not going to play in MLB, it's time to try the 1B idea (because who else do we have? Shaw?) or trade him while he's got some kind of value.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would start Butler over Lavarnway, .

    If the Sox are left with the options of lavarnway or Butler starting in 2014, I would pick Butler. Coming off a solid year both offensively and defensively, Id feel more comfortable going with the 27yo better defender. Probably have a few people scratching their heads, but I just dont trust Lavarnways defense for 100 games.

    Butler is much better defensively than Lavarnway, calls a better game (from all reports), showed some offensive gains last year, has a 30%+ CS, has shown a good OBP for a catcher and added a little power last year with 15hr.

    Vasquez is the superior defender over both these guys, but not quite ready yet. Maybe by mid-season or after the ASB.

    No, Butler nothing special, but if the choice came down to those 2, Id take Butler.

    [/QUOTE]

    Lavarnway has succeeded at every level of play where he has been given a fair shot at the job. I would take him over someone who has proven himself to be "nothing special" in a heartbeat.

    [/QUOTE]


    If you cant see how bad defensively he is, then I dont know what to say. He is terrible at blocking balls and scouts question his game calling abilities too. if they dont see him as their future starter, Im sure there is a good reason. They chose to play Salty more when Ross went down instead of Lavarnway. I have a feeling they dont value his catching skills much at all...They obviously see him more than you or I. Im guessing they dont see enough to give him a shot. Give the kid a 1b mit already.

    [/QUOTE]

    I am not saying he is a defensive wizard behind the plate, but he is not as bad as you make him out to be. AND he can hit the baseball.
    He was the top defensive catcher in the International League in 2012 (http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/players/cards/87356). When the Sox first got Salty he was much worse defensively than Lavarnway is: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8879&position=C/DH and for Salty: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=5557&position=C.

    Lavarnway is still below average defensively. There are very few catchers who are above average defensively AND can hit the baseball. I have no problems giving him a shot at the job. He has earned that much.

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would start Butler over Lavarnway, .

    If the Sox are left with the options of lavarnway or Butler starting in 2014, I would pick Butler. Coming off a solid year both offensively and defensively, Id feel more comfortable going with the 27yo better defender. Probably have a few people scratching their heads, but I just dont trust Lavarnways defense for 100 games.

    Butler is much better defensively than Lavarnway, calls a better game (from all reports), showed some offensive gains last year, has a 30%+ CS, has shown a good OBP for a catcher and added a little power last year with 15hr.

    Vasquez is the superior defender over both these guys, but not quite ready yet. Maybe by mid-season or after the ASB.

    No, Butler nothing special, but if the choice came down to those 2, Id take Butler.

    [/QUOTE]

    Lavarnway has succeeded at every level of play where he has been given a fair shot at the job. I would take him over someone who has proven himself to be "nothing special" in a heartbeat.

    [/QUOTE]


    If you cant see how bad defensively he is, then I dont know what to say. He is terrible at blocking balls and scouts question his game calling abilities too. if they dont see him as their future starter, Im sure there is a good reason. They chose to play Salty more when Ross went down instead of Lavarnway. I have a feeling they dont value his catching skills much at all...They obviously see him more than you or I. Im guessing they dont see enough to give him a shot. Give the kid a 1b mit already.

    [/QUOTE]

    I am not saying he is a defensive wizard behind the plate, but he is not as bad as you make him out to be. AND he can hit the baseball.
    He was the top defensive catcher in the International League in 2012 (http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/players/cards/87356). When the Sox first got Salty he was much worse defensively than Lavarnway is: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8879&position=C/DH and for Salty: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=5557&position=C.

    Lavarnway is still below average defensively. There are very few catchers who are above average defensively AND can hit the baseball. I have no problems giving him a shot at the job. He has earned that much.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Listen PG, I like the kid. But he is NOT a FT catcher. The Sox dont see him as that. Hes not even the starter in AAA anymore, that belongs to Vasquez. If they believed in him they wouldnt have worked Salty to the bone when Ross went down and they would have named him the starter already.

    If he is just a stop gap (which he is) there is no use putting him in there and hoping he can figure it all out. We can get a better stop gap and at least guarentee solid defense. That award is voted on by players and coaches. The scouts still dont think hes a good catcher. hes a liability defensively right now and his offense has taken a hit the last couple years.

     I 100% disagree with starting him. The Sox obviously know more than any of us, and by their actions, they seem to think like I do. Hopefully they Give him a 1b mit. He wont be as worn down from catching and maybe he can get that high BA OBP and power back. THAT is his ticket because hes not a good defender. Plus we have no solid 1b prospect. Shaw? Meh...

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would start Butler over Lavarnway, .

    If the Sox are left with the options of lavarnway or Butler starting in 2014, I would pick Butler. Coming off a solid year both offensively and defensively, Id feel more comfortable going with the 27yo better defender. Probably have a few people scratching their heads, but I just dont trust Lavarnways defense for 100 games.

    Butler is much better defensively than Lavarnway, calls a better game (from all reports), showed some offensive gains last year, has a 30%+ CS, has shown a good OBP for a catcher and added a little power last year with 15hr.

    Vasquez is the superior defender over both these guys, but not quite ready yet. Maybe by mid-season or after the ASB.

    No, Butler nothing special, but if the choice came down to those 2, Id take Butler.

     



    Lavarnway has succeeded at every level of play where he has been given a fair shot at the job. I would take him over someone who has proven himself to be "nothing special" in a heartbeat.

     

     




    If you cant see how bad defensively he is, then I dont know what to say. He is terrible at blocking balls and scouts question his game calling abilities too. if they dont see him as their future starter, Im sure there is a good reason. They chose to play Salty more when Ross went down instead of Lavarnway. I have a feeling they dont value his catching skills much at all...They obviously see him more than you or I. Im guessing they dont see enough to give him a shot. Give the kid a 1b mit already.

     



    I am not saying he is a defensive wizard behind the plate, but he is not as bad as you make him out to be. AND he can hit the baseball.
    He was the top defensive catcher in the International League in 2012 (http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/players/cards/87356). When the Sox first got Salty he was much worse defensively than Lavarnway is: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8879&position=C/DH and for Salty: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=5557&position=C.

    Lavarnway is still below average defensively. There are very few catchers who are above average defensively AND can hit the baseball. I have no problems giving him a shot at the job. He has earned that much.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Listen PG, I like the kid. But he is NOT a FT catcher. The Sox dont see him as that. Hes not even the starter in AAA anymore, that belongs to Vasquez. If they believed in him they wouldnt have worked Salty to the bone when Ross went down and they would have named him the starter already.

    If he is just a stop gap (which he is) there is no use putting him in there and hoping he can figure it all out. We can get a better stop gap and at least guarentee solid defense. That award is voted on by players and coaches. The scouts still dont think hes a good catcher. hes a liability defensively right now and his offense has taken a hit the last couple years.

     I 100% disagree with starting him. The Sox obviously know more than any of us, and by their actions, they seem to think like I do. Hopefully they Give him a 1b mit. He wont be as worn down from catching and maybe he can get that high BA OBP and power back. THAT is his ticket because hes not a good defender. Plus we have no solid 1b prospect. Shaw? Meh...

    [/QUOTE]

    I think Salty and Lav could be considered equals defensively, especially consdering how much more time Salty has had to master the position.  I also think Lav has a better arm than Salty ever will.  Salty's benching in the WS was pretty degrading for any player so that should tell you how management really feels about his skill set. 

    Offensively? Lav has never had the opportunity that Salty was given so the jury is still out in my opinion but I do feel Lav could put up comparible, if not better numbers than Ross next season against lefties. 

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    I think the Sox will use or trade for the best possible compliment to Ross.  A player who can hit righties pretty well would be my guess.  Butler and Lav may not fit the bill...

    Since Ross hits lefties almost identically as righties, I do not think it matters what side our next catcher hits from.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    I think the Sox will use or trade for the best possible compliment to Ross.  A player who can hit righties pretty well would be my guess.  Butler and Lav may not fit the bill...

    Since Ross hits lefties almost identically as righties, I do not think it matters what side our next catcher hits from.

     



    Hey moon,

     

    Career and age wise Ross is at best a back up catcher but a decent one due to his decent game calling, arm and defense.  Salty's benching in favor of Ross really put Salty's true skill set into perspective for everyone.  I think Lav and Ross should in fact start the season, its only fair to Lav to get the same opportunity as Salty who was horrible when we handed over the position to him. 

    We have Swihart and Vasquez in the wings regardless and can always make a trade in the meantime if things don't work out.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    Heres a good read on our catching situation

    And Craze..Lavarnway is in now way as good as Salty defensively. Not even close. cs% is all he has on him.

    from Alex Speier...

    The Sox seem intent on having place-holders for Vazquez and/or Swihart as opposed to anyone who would impede their path to the majors, hence the reluctance to go beyond two years in contract offers for either Jarrod Saltalamacchia or Carlos Ruiz. While Lavarnway represents an option in theory, he has yet to command the trust of either the pitching staff or the coaching staff behind the plate, and given that the considerable power potential he showed in 2011 (32 homers in the minors, two in the big leagues) has vanished in the last two years, it seems unlikely that the Sox turn to him as their fronliner to work with Ross. Indeed, some evaluators believe Butler represents the better big league option right now after a year in which he had an impressive offensive and defensive showing as Pawtucket's everyday catcher while Lavarnway was in the big leagues.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Heres a good read on our catching situation

    And Craze..Lavarnway is in now way as good as Salty defensively. Not even close. cs% is all he has on him.

    from Alex Speier...

    The Sox seem intent on having place-holders for Vazquez and/or Swihart as opposed to anyone who would impede their path to the majors, hence the reluctance to go beyond two years in contract offers for either Jarrod Saltalamacchia or Carlos Ruiz. While Lavarnway represents an option in theory, he has yet to command the trust of either the pitching staff or the coaching staff behind the plate, and given that the considerable power potential he showed in 2011 (32 homers in the minors, two in the big leagues) has vanished in the last two years, it seems unlikely that the Sox turn to him as their fronliner to work with Ross. Indeed, some evaluators believe Butler represents the better big league option right now after a year in which he had an impressive offensive and defensive showing as Pawtucket's everyday catcher while Lavarnway was in the big leagues.

    [/QUOTE]

    Southpaw, as you said Lav proved to be pretty good offensively in the minors which more often than not eventually translates into a decent major league hitter as well.  There is only one fair way to deal with Lav after stringing him along while Salty improved. 

    Play him along side Ross or trade him in hopes he gets an opportunity elsewhere while he is still young enough.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
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    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
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    In response to southpaw777's comment:
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    I would start Butler over Lavarnway, .

    If the Sox are left with the options of lavarnway or Butler starting in 2014, I would pick Butler. Coming off a solid year both offensively and defensively, Id feel more comfortable going with the 27yo better defender. Probably have a few people scratching their heads, but I just dont trust Lavarnways defense for 100 games.

    Butler is much better defensively than Lavarnway, calls a better game (from all reports), showed some offensive gains last year, has a 30%+ CS, has shown a good OBP for a catcher and added a little power last year with 15hr.

    Vasquez is the superior defender over both these guys, but not quite ready yet. Maybe by mid-season or after the ASB.

    No, Butler nothing special, but if the choice came down to those 2, Id take Butler.

    [/QUOTE]

    Lavarnway has succeeded at every level of play where he has been given a fair shot at the job. I would take him over someone who has proven himself to be "nothing special" in a heartbeat.

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    If you cant see how bad defensively he is, then I dont know what to say. He is terrible at blocking balls and scouts question his game calling abilities too. if they dont see him as their future starter, Im sure there is a good reason. They chose to play Salty more when Ross went down instead of Lavarnway. I have a feeling they dont value his catching skills much at all...They obviously see him more than you or I. Im guessing they dont see enough to give him a shot. Give the kid a 1b mit already.

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    I am not saying he is a defensive wizard behind the plate, but he is not as bad as you make him out to be. AND he can hit the baseball.
    He was the top defensive catcher in the International League in 2012 (http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/players/cards/87356). When the Sox first got Salty he was much worse defensively than Lavarnway is: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8879&position=C/DH and for Salty: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=5557&position=C.

    Lavarnway is still below average defensively. There are very few catchers who are above average defensively AND can hit the baseball. I have no problems giving him a shot at the job. He has earned that much.

     

     

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    Listen PG, I like the kid. But he is NOT a FT catcher. The Sox dont see him as that. Hes not even the starter in AAA anymore, that belongs to Vasquez. If they believed in him they wouldnt have worked Salty to the bone when Ross went down and they would have named him the starter already.

    If he is just a stop gap (which he is) there is no use putting him in there and hoping he can figure it all out. We can get a better stop gap and at least guarentee solid defense. That award is voted on by players and coaches. The scouts still dont think hes a good catcher. hes a liability defensively right now and his offense has taken a hit the last couple years.

     I 100% disagree with starting him. The Sox obviously know more than any of us, and by their actions, they seem to think like I do. Hopefully they Give him a 1b mit. He wont be as worn down from catching and maybe he can get that high BA OBP and power back. THAT is his ticket because hes not a good defender. Plus we have no solid 1b prospect. Shaw? Meh...

    [/QUOTE]

    I have no problems with him switching positions. However, I am not ready to give up on him as a bona fide catcher. The Sox got Salty when he was MUCH worse defensively than Lavarnway is now and gave him a shot. He improved; Lavarnway can also improve. He would not be my top pick for catcher next year, but I would also not rule him out. Just because the Red Sox are unwilling to give him a chance to do the job and play him as the every day catcher does not mean that that is the right thing to do. I disagree with that tactic. I think he deserves a chance. If he fails, he fails. The point is that he has NEVER been given a chance with the ML club, and he deserves it.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
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    Heres a good read on our catching situation

    And Craze..Lavarnway is in now way as good as Salty defensively. Not even close. cs% is all he has on him.

    from Alex Speier...

    The Sox seem intent on having place-holders for Vazquez and/or Swihart as opposed to anyone who would impede their path to the majors, hence the reluctance to go beyond two years in contract offers for either Jarrod Saltalamacchia or Carlos Ruiz. While Lavarnway represents an option in theory, he has yet to command the trust of either the pitching staff or the coaching staff behind the plate, and given that the considerable power potential he showed in 2011 (32 homers in the minors, two in the big leagues) has vanished in the last two years, it seems unlikely that the Sox turn to him as their fronliner to work with Ross. Indeed, some evaluators believe Butler represents the better big league option right now after a year in which he had an impressive offensive and defensive showing as Pawtucket's everyday catcher while Lavarnway was in the big leagues.

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    Southpaw, as you said Lav proved to be pretty good offensively in the minors which more often than not eventually translates into a decent major league hitter as well.  There is only one fair way to deal with Lav after stringing him along while Salty improved. 

    Play him along side Ross or trade him in hopes he gets an opportunity elsewhere while he is still young enough.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Whoever said baseball is or should be "fair"? I agree with you that he deserves a shot at a regular catcher's job here or elsewhere, but baseball is littered with unfairness and impropriety. Ryan Lavarnway, defensive catcher of the year in the international league and owner of a career AAA OPS of .844 in 845 PAs, deserves a shot somewhere, preferably HERE.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Heres a good read on our catching situation

    And Craze..Lavarnway is in now way as good as Salty defensively. Not even close. cs% is all he has on him.

    from Alex Speier...

    The Sox seem intent on having place-holders for Vazquez and/or Swihart as opposed to anyone who would impede their path to the majors, hence the reluctance to go beyond two years in contract offers for either Jarrod Saltalamacchia or Carlos Ruiz. While Lavarnway represents an option in theory, he has yet to command the trust of either the pitching staff or the coaching staff behind the plate, and given that the considerable power potential he showed in 2011 (32 homers in the minors, two in the big leagues) has vanished in the last two years, it seems unlikely that the Sox turn to him as their fronliner to work with Ross. Indeed, some evaluators believe Butler represents the better big league option right now after a year in which he had an impressive offensive and defensive showing as Pawtucket's everyday catcher while Lavarnway was in the big leagues.



    Southpaw, as you said Lav proved to be pretty good offensively in the minors which more often than not eventually translates into a decent major league hitter as well.  There is only one fair way to deal with Lav after stringing him along while Salty improved. 

    Play him along side Ross or trade him in hopes he gets an opportunity elsewhere while he is still young enough.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Whoever said baseball is or should be "fair"? I agree with you that he deserves a shot at a regular catcher's job here or elsewhere, but baseball is littered with unfairness and impropriety. Ryan Lavarnway, defensive catcher of the year in the international league and owner of a career AAA OPS of .844 in 845 PAs, deserves a shot somewhere, preferably HERE.

    [/QUOTE]


    Players and coaches who only play against him a few times a year voted him for that award. Scouts who see him a lot more say otherwise, so the award doesnt mean that much. Only that he improved from terrible to below average. They dont have time for another project. Didnt you guys watch him play? Hes a passed ball machine. He tries to backhand everything and isnt quick enough, like Salty, to slide and block balls. His game calling and pitch framing has also been brough into question from scouts. they are not impressed with him. His offense has taken a big hit because of the demands for the position, which is expected.

    So, Do you keep a below average defensive catcher with ok offensive numbers, or do you put him in a place where you play to his strengths? Play him at 1b which isnt nearly as demanding as C, let him get that swing back and we should see the BA, OBP and HR totals jump. Atleast playing there gives him the best chance to play to his best atribute...His bat.

    Id rather set him up for success now. Hes NOT the catcher of the future, so it makes no sense to keep him there. Why trade him when he doesnt have much value? I would even feel more comfortable with him platooning at 1b with Carp/Nava than catching, then maybe taking over FT if it works out.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: If it came down to it....

    Players and coaches who only play against him a few times a year voted him for that award. Scouts who see him a lot more say otherwise, so the award doesnt mean that much. Only that he improved from terrible to below average. They dont have time for another project. Didnt you guys watch him play? Hes a passed ball machine. He tries to backhand everything and isnt quick enough, like Salty, to slide and block balls. His game calling and pitch framing has also been brough into question from scouts. they are not impressed with him. His offense has taken a big hit because of the demands for the position, which is expected.

    So, Do you keep a below average defensive catcher with ok offensive numbers, or do you put him in a place where you play to his strengths? Play him at 1b which isnt nearly as demanding as C, let him get that swing back and we should see the BA, OBP and HR totals jump. Atleast playing there gives him the best chance to play to his best atribute...His bat.

    Id rather set him up for success now. Hes NOT the catcher of the future, so it makes no sense to keep him there. Why trade him when he doesnt have much value? I would even feel more comfortable with him platooning at 1b with Carp/Nava than catching, then maybe taking over FT if it works out.

    As I said, I have no problem giving him a shot at 1B either. When Salty got here via trade with Texas he was much worse than Lavarnway, yet they gave him a chance. No one knows if Lavarnway can work out at catcher until he is given a fair shot. Significant improvement IS possible; and I do like his bat, despite an off year.

     

     
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