IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to Hammah29r2's comment:

     

    In response to seannybboi's comment:

     

     

     

    I hear a lot of rumors from here and there that Sox might be seriously interestsed in Lee if he ever becomes available.  He definitely will command lots of money and young talent to get.  We are not even sure Ben would pull the trigger.  However, Lee will be the best upgrade to the Sox if we are going to play in October.  What would be logical proposal to the Phillies to trade for Lee?  Your thoughts?

    I think it's going to be either lots of money and #4-10 prospects or least money and top prospects.  I don't think Ben will give up both money and team's top asset.  Lee's earning $25M for next two yrs and has $27.5M vesting option for 2016.  I know he's 34 but he's still one of the best in the league.  Sox won't have problem money wise to pay Lee's significant portion of the salary.  I think Sox can play around internally and not sign big FA next season.  

     

     


    pretty tough call man. on the other hand, what about paps?  but to answer your question, probably the state of rhode island.Wink

     

     

     



    They can have that as long we can hold on to the coastline south of North Kingston and Bristol and maybe the East Side of Providence.  Block Island is clearly not negotiable.

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    There's a difference between A guy in double with good numbers who is 21 and a guy in double A who has good numbers and is 28 years old. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

    There's a difference between A guy in double with good numbers who is 21 and a guy in double A who has good numbers and is 28 years old. 

     



    Yeah, it would take a lot to get Lee out of Philly.  They have a mega TV deal hanging in the balance, so they aren't going into rebuild mode, and similar to Boston last year, they have enough core talent to compete next year if they add the "right" pieces.  So far they've said Lee is unavailable and my guess is he won't go anywhere unless they are blown away.  

     

    Papelbon, on the other hand, will likely be moved.  The fans in Philly can't stand him and he's overpriced, but he's blown 4 out of his last 5 save opportunities.  Someone like Detroit will likely bite, though.  

     

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    These trade threads are good for something .... laughs. The RS may very well get Lee, or others on the block, but not for what you see here. And with the additional WC, which allows more teams to think they have a chance, it's a seller's market

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?


    I think the Sox should definitely be talking to the Phils about Lee....The Phils need to move the $$$, becuase they know they have to start thinking about rebuilding and they had so depleted their Minor League Orgs, that some of that rebuilding will have to come though signing Free agents, otherwise it is gong to take awhile.....I have stated before, if the Sox were wiling to take the $$$(and because of the Dodger trade we can afford to)....they should take their Top 8 prospects off the table and offer the Phillies any 1 of the next top 5(9-15 and 2 more from the organziation below that. Using SOXPROSPECTS.COM, tha would be a choice of one, between, Owens, Swihart, Brentz, Workman, Marrero, Britton or Wilson and then the 2 more lower guys.....considering the Sox current depth, their is no one in that list that hurts them too bad and is more than the Phillies are going to get from any other team who would take the Money also.  Lee may be expensive, but adding him to the rotation, and putting Doubront in the Pen, makes the Sox the favorite to come out of the AL.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to tomnev's comment:

     


    I think the Sox should definitely be talking to the Phils about Lee....The Phils need to move the $$$, becuase they know they have to start thinking about rebuilding and they had so depleted their Minor League Orgs, that some of that rebuilding will have to come though signing Free agents, otherwise it is gong to take awhile.....I have stated before, if the Sox were wiling to take the $$$(and because of the Dodger trade we can afford to)....they should take their Top 8 prospects off the table and offer the Phillies any 1 of the next top 5(9-15 and 2 more from the organziation below that. Using SOXPROSPECTS.COM, tha would be a choice of one, between, Owens, Swihart, Brentz, Workman, Marrero, Britton or Wilson and then the 2 more lower guys.....considering the Sox current depth, their is no one in that list that hurts them too bad and is more than the Phillies are going to get from any other team who would take the Money also.  Lee may be expensive, but adding him to the rotation, and putting Doubront in the Pen, makes the Sox the favorite to come out of the AL.

     



    Actually, the Phillies DON'T need to move Lee and there is no way they will rebuild with a mega TV deal hanging in the balance.  There is talent to build around and money is no object with the TV deal.  It is going to take something in the neighborhood of two top pitching prospects and an MLB ready position player to land Lee.  Philly holds all the cards here and they'll gladly keep Lee.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to tomnev's comment:


    I think the Sox should definitely be talking to the Phils about Lee....The Phils need to move the $$$, becuase they know they have to start thinking about rebuilding and they had so depleted their Minor League Orgs, that some of that rebuilding will have to come though signing Free agents, otherwise it is gong to take awhile.....I have stated before, if the Sox were wiling to take the $$$(and because of the Dodger trade we can afford to)....they should take their Top 8 prospects off the table and offer the Phillies any 1 of the next top 5(9-15 and 2 more from the organziation below that. Using SOXPROSPECTS.COM, tha would be a choice of one, between, Owens, Swihart, Brentz, Workman, Marrero, Britton or Wilson and then the 2 more lower guys.....considering the Sox current depth, their is no one in that list that hurts them too bad and is more than the Phillies are going to get from any other team who would take the Money also.  Lee may be expensive, but adding him to the rotation, and putting Doubront in the Pen, makes the Sox the favorite to come out of the AL.



    If the Sox take their top 8 prospects off the table...the Philly's walk away from that table.  If we want to have a serious conversation about what it would take to get Cliff Lee we have to be honest and realize we would be giving up guys we DON'T want to give up.  WHy Philly would love to get rid of the money, they don't have too....and somene else will give up the prospects and take the money. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    The reality is Prospects pan out something like 30% of the time...and these are top prospects.

    The phillies are going to want to get back a pitcher who could possibly replace Cliff Lee which would equal 3 top pitching prospects.  Now they may take less than that....but that is their opening offer.  I can see them budging but they won't budge much.  You will HAVE to give up at least one top pitching prospect maybe coupled with a few lower level guys who are further away but have the same ceilings.  I could see a:

    Matt Barnes/Anthony Raunado/simon mercedes/Cody Kukuk.  Maybe that gets him.....I wouldn't personally trade those guys for Cliff Lee.  5 Years Ago I would make that trade in a heart beat.  Maybe you think that sounds crazy...well I agree...but if you want to have a non crazy discussion of the talent we have to give up to get Cliff Lee that's where it begins. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to tomnev's comment:


    I think the Sox should definitely be talking to the Phils about Lee....The Phils need to move the $$$, becuase they know they have to start thinking about rebuilding and they had so depleted their Minor League Orgs, that some of that rebuilding will have to come though signing Free agents, otherwise it is gong to take awhile.....I have stated before, if the Sox were wiling to take the $$$(and because of the Dodger trade we can afford to)....they should take their Top 8 prospects off the table and offer the Phillies any 1 of the next top 5(9-15 and 2 more from the organziation below that. Using SOXPROSPECTS.COM, tha would be a choice of one, between, Owens, Swihart, Brentz, Workman, Marrero, Britton or Wilson and then the 2 more lower guys.....considering the Sox current depth, their is no one in that list that hurts them too bad and is more than the Phillies are going to get from any other team who would take the Money also.  Lee may be expensive, but adding him to the rotation, and putting Doubront in the Pen, makes the Sox the favorite to come out of the AL.



    Why would you put Doubront in the pen????  The guy has been our second best starter since the beginning of June....throws a lot of pitches but he has a around a 2.75 ERA in the last month.  I wouldn't be rushing him to the pen.  Remember....Lester too threw a TON of pitches when he became a fulltime starter and RARELY got out of the 6th.  The Sox stuck with him and he's been pretty good since......stick with Doubront....he'll be fine. 

    After the AS break we'll have Buch back and Lester who is VERY NOTORIOUS for not so good first halves will be itching to prove himself.  We need BP help...not starter help.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    I don't know if the Sox would be willing to take on that big a contract. If they did , it should not cost top prospects also. Maybe some of the marginal guys like Jacobs , Vitek and Vinicio. Maybe even Marrero , who was a number one pick , but does not seem to have a future in Boston. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    I don't know if the Sox would be willing to take on that big a contract. If they did , it should not cost top prospects also. Maybe some of the marginal guys like Jacobs , Vitek and Vinicio. Maybe even Marrero , who was a number one pick , but does not seem to have a future in Boston. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.



    I agree, but I'm also a guy that doesn't like to buy high and the reality is at the trading deadline sellers ALWAYS get the better deal in the long run.  Well they don't always get the better deal but they usually do.  Normally for a pitcher who is an ace and a Cy Young candidate you pretty much have to trade the farm.  Which means your top prospect plus 2-4 other top prospects depending on how strong the system is.  Just because he commands a large salary doesn't mean we can throw fringe prospects who will at best end up bullpen and role players at them.  We are still going to have to give up top prospects except now the asking price will likely be 1-2 top guys.  1 would be more than enough to center a trade around if he's a blue chipper.....but Ben C would be chased out of town if he traded Xander Bogaerts (at least I hope he would be)  We don't have a blue chip pitching prospect but we have several guys who are close to that.  We likely have to give up two of those guys.  I don't like that because I can see us having a dominant cost controlled rotation for years to come a few years from now.......but if we want to talk about what it would actually take to land Cliff Lee and NOT what we would like it to take Cliff Lee we have to be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that at least 1 of our top pitchers would have to be included. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    This whole thing about the money is dependant on what other teams would be willing to pay / trade for Lee, and the the extent to which the Phils just want a salary dump.

    So here's the question: Who would be bidding against us THIS YEAR. It isn't NYY, since they seem solidly stuck under the salary cap.

    There are only so many teams that can carry his kind of money.

    The Dodgers have already shot their wad.

    We are not competing against ourselves. It's just a small number of other teams and the Phils own desire to dump salary.

    At the very least, we should bid enough to give the winning team a hangover.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I don't know if the Sox would be willing to take on that big a contract. If they did , it should not cost top prospects also. Maybe some of the marginal guys like Jacobs , Vitek and Vinicio. Maybe even Marrero , who was a number one pick , but does not seem to have a future in Boston. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     



    I agree, but I'm also a guy that doesn't like to buy high and the reality is at the trading deadline sellers ALWAYS get the better deal in the long run.  Well they don't always get the better deal but they usually do.  Normally for a pitcher who is an ace and a Cy Young candidate you pretty much have to trade the farm.  Which means your top prospect plus 2-4 other top prospects depending on how strong the system is.  Just because he commands a large salary doesn't mean we can throw fringe prospects who will at best end up bullpen and role players at them.  We are still going to have to give up top prospects except now the asking price will likely be 1-2 top guys.  1 would be more than enough to center a trade around if he's a blue chipper.....but Ben C would be chased out of town if he traded Xander Bogaerts (at least I hope he would be)  We don't have a blue chip pitching prospect but we have several guys who are close to that.  We likely have to give up two of those guys.  I don't like that because I can see us having a dominant cost controlled rotation for years to come a few years from now.......but if we want to talk about what it would actually take to land Cliff Lee and NOT what we would like it to take Cliff Lee we have to be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that at least 1 of our top pitchers would have to be included. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I don't think that's necessarily true - if the Phillies want to dump Lee and his contract, they are looking at the same handful of teams that wanted him for $25M / year to begin with.  The Sox don't even have to dip into their top 10 to trump the likes of Justin Grimm and Manny Banuelos.

    If we were to add Lee to the rotation, there would no longer be room for Felix Doubront - we can't have Fenway as our home park and have three lefties in the rotation.  Doubront is cost-controlled for the next five years, and doing a solid job in the AL East.   It's more than the Rangers or Yankees could offer.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to lasitter's comment:

    This whole thing about the money is dependant on what other teams would be willing to pay / trade for Lee, and the the extent to which the Phils just want a salary dump.

    So here's the question: Who would be bidding against us THIS YEAR. It isn't NYY, since they seem solidly stuck under the salary cap.

    There are only so many teams that can carry his kind of money.

    The Dodgers have already shot their wad.

    We are not competing against ourselves. It's just a small number of other teams and the Phils own desire to dump salary.

    At the very least, we should bid enough to give the winning team a hangover.



    This is a great thread, but many seem to be missing the point that the Phillies don't WANT to move Lee, and more importantly, they don't NEED to move Lee.  They have a mega TV contract in the works which will give them all the financial flexibility in the world (Think Dodgers lite), yet they have to try to put a competitive team on the field as well.  They are not moving Lee unless they are blown away by a desperate team.  Lee's "salary" means nothing to them, but his "star power" when securing the TV contract does.  He's not going anywhere in any kind of "salary dump" for marginal prospects...

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    Lester & Middlebrooks for Lee & Young, and Phillies pick up Young's salary to keep us from going over.

    1-Once you have Lee, you don't care about Lester.

    2-WMB may not live up to expectations, and if he does, he might to have to switch positions.

    3-We really should have 3B covered with Bogaerts and Cecchini, so even if WMB fulfills his potential, the downside isn't bad.

    4-Lee is expensive, but assuming we see JBJ, Iggy, and Boegarts next year, we won't have a unmanageable payroll.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Lester & Middlebrooks for Lee & Young, and Phillies pick up Young's salary to keep us from going over.

    1-Once you have Lee, you don't care about Lester.

    2-WMB may not live up to expectations, and if he does, he might to have to switch positions.

    3-We really should have 3B covered with Bogaerts and Cecchini, so even if WMB fulfills his potential, the downside isn't bad.

    4-Lee is expensive, but assuming we see JBJ, Iggy, and Boegarts next year, we won't have a unmanageable payroll.


    The Rangers already are paying $10 million of the $16 million owed on the final year of Michael Young's contract, but the scuffling Jon Lester and Will Middlebrooks might not be all that attractive to the Phillies.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to hill55's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    [QUOTE]Lester & Middlebrooks for Lee & Young, and Phillies pick up Young's salary to keep us from going over.

     

    1-Once you have Lee, you don't care about Lester.

    2-WMB may not live up to expectations, and if he does, he might to have to switch positions.

    3-We really should have 3B covered with Bogaerts and Cecchini, so even if WMB fulfills his potential, the downside isn't bad.

    4-Lee is expensive, but assuming we see JBJ, Iggy, and Boegarts next year, we won't have a unmanageable payroll.


    The Rangers already are paying $10 million of the $16 million owed on the final year of Michael Young's contract, but the scuffling Jon Lester and Will Middlebrooks might not be all that attractive to the Phillies.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'd rate it high on the gamble side.  If Philly gets the 2013 WMB and the lester from the last 5 games, they made a bad trade.  If they get the 2013 WMB and the Lester from the first half of the season, they have a great trade.

    And some of this will be PR.  You trade Lee for say a #20 prospect, you just announced you bagged the season and maybe 2014.  But maybe you can sell Lester as Lee-light, WMB as the answer to the revolving door at 3B, and another $11M you can spend in 2014.

    We're not trying to make the decision easy for Philly.  We're trying to make the decision plausible.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    Middlebrooks drove in 8 runs for Pawtucket today.  4 HRs in his last three games - I don't think it will be long before we see him again.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to slomag's comment:

    Middlebrooks drove in 8 runs for Pawtucket today.  4 HRs in his last three games - I don't think it will be long before we see him again.




    They should bring him up now. Put Drew on the D.L. , then look to trade him.  Bradley is about ready to come back also. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to hill55's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    Lester & Middlebrooks for Lee & Young, and Phillies pick up Young's salary to keep us from going over.

     

     

    1-Once you have Lee, you don't care about Lester.

    2-WMB may not live up to expectations, and if he does, he might to have to switch positions.

    3-We really should have 3B covered with Bogaerts and Cecchini, so even if WMB fulfills his potential, the downside isn't bad.

    4-Lee is expensive, but assuming we see JBJ, Iggy, and Boegarts next year, we won't have a unmanageable payroll.

     


    The Rangers already are paying $10 million of the $16 million owed on the final year of Michael Young's contract, but the scuffling Jon Lester and Will Middlebrooks might not be all that attractive to the Phillies.

     

     

     



    No "source" for you, Hill, but Middlebrooks would be VERY attractive to the Phillies Front Office.  He is one heck of a lot more regarded as a kid with a good attitude and "once a decade" power hitter than he is on this board...

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    No "source" for you, Hill, but Middlebrooks would be VERY attractive to the Phillies Front Office.  He is one heck of a lot more regarded as a kid with a good attitude and "once a decade" power hitter than he is on this board...


    We can all hope that Will Middlebrooks someday lives up to his early hype, but 5+ seasons of minor league stats suggest that Middlebrooks has some serious flaws.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    In response to hill55's comment:

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    [QUOTE]No "source" for you, Hill, but Middlebrooks would be VERY attractive to the Phillies Front Office.  He is one heck of a lot more regarded as a kid with a good attitude and "once a decade" power hitter than he is on this board...



    We can all hope that Will Middlebrooks someday lives up to his early hype, but 5+ seasons of minor league stats suggest that Middlebrooks has some serious flaws.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    He's still just 24 years old and he has a passion for the game.  He was coming into his sophomore year with a lot of hype after missing significant time do to a wrist injury.  I'm going to go with quotes like "the ball just sounds different coming off his bat" and "he's a natural leader" before I start looking at his "WAR" minor league stats.  We'll see I guess...

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from patrickford. Show patrickford's posts

    Re: IF the Phillies make Cliff Lee available, what would be the cost to land him?

    Middlebrooks has correctable learning process deficiencies, rather than skill set deficiencies. 

    I also think his wrist injury possibly played a much larger role in his struggles than may have been understood. 

     
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