1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I am not a big fan of Babip. There are a lot of things that it does not take into consideration.  But if you look at it, I don't think there is an extraordinary difference between his Babip and his B.A.  Watching him , you can see how quickly he gets out of the box and gets to first. He gets infield hits that others don't. He sprays the ball around.  Guys like Napoli and Salty actually have higher Babips than Iglesias, and much larger differentials in the Babip and B.A. The difference is the strikeouts. Iglesias puts the ball in play and has more speed. It seems to me that one can always find some stat, traditional or metric , if they are looking to prove a point. The bottom line is that Iglesias is batting .330 after 237 plate appearances this year.  That is quite a " lucky " streak.   As for defense, he is as good as it gets.    That is quite a young ballplayer that we gave up. 

    Stabbed by Foulke

     



    You're being swayed too much by the gaudiness of his BA.  Even if he could maintain an average like that, which he can't, he's a slap hitter with no power.  Iggy has one home run and has not had an extra-base hit in over 20 games.   

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Perhaps you are being swayed by the specific 20 game sample size.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    We have two prospects who are 3B, one of which will most likely be our future 3B-Middlebrooks and Cecchini. We do not need another 3B prospect.

    Middlebrooks may nver make it back to a FT role.

    Cecchini may never make it.

    We need a 1Bman after 2013.

    We need a DH after 2014.

    Middlebrooks, Cecchini and Bogaerts, if they make it to the bigs and do well,  can be moved the 1B.

     There is a good chance that either WMB or Cecchini will be our eventual 3B. I would bet on that before I would bet that Iggy would hit well enough to be our full time SS despite his defensive prowess.

    I agree. When we have a GM who does not value SS defense as much as offense, it's a pretty good bet Cecchini, Middlebrooks or someone else would be playing 3B with Boggy at SS rather than have Iggy as our longterm SS. I am not arguing about what Ben thinks. We agree. Why would I bet?

    Yes, after 2014 we will need a new DH. I would propose that this position be rotated among players who need an occasional day off. There is no easy solution to replacing Papi's production-and it has nothing to do with this trade.

    I agree. 

     

    We needed pitching, and had to give someone of value up to obtain it. Iglesias was traded when his value was high and we got an experienced decent SP back in return-and that allows Workman to bolster the pen.

    We do not know if Iggy's value was "high" or not. It may have been higher before last year, it may be higher in years to come, but it was certainly higher than it was after 2012.

    Nope. Its all guesswork. My guess is that we sold high on Iggy.

    You think other GMs don't know about BAbip? Detroit knew what they were getting. They did not trade for Iggy based on this year's offensive stats. That's not a guess. 

    The stock being highest or not is.

     

    Iggy had a WAR during his stay here of 1.8. If you believe in WAR, thats the level of a reserve player which, IMO, is what Iggy will turn out to be. I wish him the best of luck but this was a decent and reasonable trade for us.

    Iggy played about half a season. If you double 1.8 to give him a full season, he'd have a WAR or 3.6. That would have made him the 7th best SS in MLB last year and 9th in 2011. Am I missing your point, or did you misread WAR in the context of the SS position and sample size?

    Maybe I am misunderstanding WAR. I think it means that right now he has the value of a replacement player and that unless his performance improves he will remain at or below 1.8, his current level. He has, in fact, already started to return to earth. In the last month here he was at .205/.464. That simply is not good enough. He is probably better than that, but he will never be an offensive force IMO. I prefer a SS who can both play defense and who is not an automatic out.

    Yes, you are misunderstanding War in more ways than one.

    WAR accumulates the more games you play. There really shoud be a WAR per 150 games stat as well.

    Even if WAR did not accumulate, a 1.8 WAR would be the 10th best in MLb this year. Hardly "replacement value".

     

    Sox4ever

     




     

    [/QUOTE]


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Sorry if I am being overly dramatic, but I feel some of the reason our pitching has looked better is a result of our improved defense up the middle. Iggy's play at 3B was remarkable as well.



    Now you're really not being objective.  Iggy's UZR/150 at 3B was -33.1.

     

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    Im still happy with the move. And no, the pressure is not on Peavy now because Iggy got a hit.



    Sure it is.  If Peavy does not live up to your predictions and Iggy keeps playing the infield well and hits as well as any other 9th man in the batting order, then the deal was a bad one.

    [/QUOTE]

    It'll be a while before we can judge that.  Starting a thread because Iggy had an RBI in his first game is just silly.

    Of course we all know if Peavy has a bad outing today you'll start another one about that.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonBruinss. Show BostonBruinss's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    Oh god, people are sooooooo pathetic. I can't believe all these posts over 1 RBI.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

     

    I wonder if the Sox offered Drew first up. Let us face it, Drew is more the equivalent to Peavey in terms of age, contract, and ability. Of course the Sox probably did offer Drew and the Tigers immediately passed.

     




    Hey ol man, as you know I live in Michigan and still love my Sox. All my customers -baseball friends have been calling me and emailing me laughing all the way to the bank. Detroit is smart enough to realize that they dont need him to hit any home runs. They wanted his glove. Maybe he only hits .230 for his career, who cares? How much confidence does he give his pitchers? How many runs does he save? The amazing thing to me is we keep saying we need better pitching, better defense makes better pitchers. This new era of stat craziness is out of control. can't anyone judge a player by watching him and throw some stats out the window?

     

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Time for several posters to start minimizing Iggy's skillset and value.

    Just watch...

    Sox4ever

     




    They are doing it already. Calling him lucky

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Yeah, that NEVER came up before the trade.

     

    http://www.boston.com/community/forums/sports/red-sox/on-the-front-burner/iglesias-and-his-bat/100/6697390

     

    Fans who did not realize Iglesias was lucky were in denial.  I liked Iglesias, but there is no denying he was sold high...

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    Detroit City are going to love IGGY.... Can you imagine watching his glove in the W S & playoffs !!!

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    Iggy drives in a run to help the Tigers to a 2-1 win.

     

    Pressure is now on for Peavy.



    Iggy getting a hit was good for him and the Tigers but he is no longer a Red Sox player so fans should just get over it.  Again, a lot of fans and the teammates will miss his great defense but watching Jon struggle again last night once again proved our need for SP.

     

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to notin's comment:

     

     

    Fans who did not realize Iglesias was lucky were in denial.  I liked Iglesias, but there is no denying he was sold high...

     

     

    If there's one thing you can say about us Sox fans it's that we support our team.   A month ago Iggy was the cornerstone of our defense for years to come and we'd live with any BA above .225.  Now because he's gone he can't hit and we were lucky to get a #3 or #4 pitcher for him.

    I'm not at all buying into this business of his being "sold high".  Too many people are suddenly assuming that Iggy's "norm" is what he was hitting during his last two weeks in Boston - which is probably not true.  Just as his .500 BA wasn't sustainable neither is his performance over his past two weeks.  The truth lies somewhere in between.  The .500 was based on a small sample size just as was the past two weeks.  It's called an AVERAGE.

    Only history is going to determine whether we "sold high" or "sold low".  If Peavy leads the Sox to the WS this year the argument can be made that it was a good trade and we "sold high".  If Peavy doesn't take the Sox to the WS this year (or at least even get to the WS) an equal argument can be made that we got snookered out of a GG SS because we were impatient and we "sold low".  

    Even if the Sox win the WS the deciding long-term factor in this trade is going to be Bogarts.  In the long run, if he's as good as we hope he's going to be AND we end up with a 3B with skills equal to Bogarts this will have been a good trade.  If not, it won't. 

    My bigger concern is for the future.  I was prepared to write the 2013 season off as the bridge year and I was fine with that because I could see the other end of the bridge.  It had a GG SS and a veteran 2B as the anchors to the IF.  Now all this team has is the 2B and a promising prospect, and prospects scare me, especially those who've never had a ML at-bat.  I remember Andy Marte - that great 3B who was going to rewrite the record books. 

    I still feel the way I felt a couple of days ago - that I'd like to have seen this guy play at the ML level before we traded away the guy he's going to replace.  Right now it appears that we've given him the SS position and told him that it's his to lose. 

    Maybe it's me, but that seems shortsighted.   

     

    Edit:  Oops.  Sorry.  I guess this should have gone in the, "Sorry, but I (still) don't like it" thread. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to S5's comment:

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

     

    Fans who did not realize Iglesias was lucky were in denial.  I liked Iglesias, but there is no denying he was sold high...

     

     

    If there's one thing you can say about us Sox fans it's that we support our team.   A month ago Iggy was the cornerstone of our defense for years to come and we'd live with any BA above .225.  Now because he's gone he can't hit and we were lucky to get a #3 or #4 pitcher for him.

    I'm not at all buying into this business of his being "sold high".  Too many people are suddenly assuming that Iggy's "norm" is what he was hitting during his last two weeks in Boston - which is probably not true.  Just as his .500 BA wasn't sustainable neither is his performance over his past two weeks.  The truth lies somewhere in between.  The .500 was based on a small sample size just as was the past two weeks.  It's called an AVERAGE.

    Only history is going to determine whether we "sold high" or "sold low".  If Peavy leads the Sox to the WS this year the argument can be made that it was a good trade and we "sold high".  If Peavy doesn't take the Sox to the WS this year (or at least even get to the WS) an equal argument can be made that we got snookered out of a GG SS because we were impatient and we "sold low".  

    Even if the Sox win the WS the deciding long-term factor in this trade is going to be Bogarts.  In the long run, if he's as good as we hope he's going to be AND we end up with a 3B with skills equal to Bogarts this will have been a good trade.  If not, it won't. 

    My bigger concern is for the future.  I was prepared to write the 2013 season off as the bridge year and I was fine with that because I could see the other end of the bridge.  It had a GG SS and a veteran 2B as the anchors to the IF.  Now all this team has is the 2B and a promising prospect, and prospects scare me, especially those who've never had a ML at-bat.  I remember Andy Marte - that great 3B who was going to rewrite the record books. 

    I still feel the way I felt a couple of days ago - that I'd like to have seen this guy play at the ML level before we traded away the guy he's going to replace.  Right now it appears that we've given him the SS position and told him that it's his to lose. 

    Maybe it's me, but that seems shortsighted.   

     



    Keep telling yourself Peavy is a #3 or 4 starter.  The guy has consistently done more throughout his career than any pitcher on our staff.  If "BIG IF" Clay could stay in the rotation at some point for a full season, Clay is better at this point. 

     

    As far as Iggy, I'm not sure who would be happy with a 225 BA and great defense for the next 10 years out of our SS but I certainlt wouldn't and obviously our FO felt the same.  In all fairness to Iggy I think he could be a 260 or higher hitter at some point like Ozzie Smith.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to S5's comment:

     

    My bigger concern is for the future.  I was prepared to write the 2013 season off as the bridge year and I was fine with that because I could see the other end of the bridge.  It had a GG SS and a veteran 2B as the anchors to the IF.  Now all this team has is the 2B and a promising prospect, and prospects scare me, especially those who've never had a ML at-bat.  I remember Andy Marte - that great 3B who was going to rewrite the record books. 



    If prospects scare you, you should be glad that we traded Iggy and kept Drew, who is virtually the same age as Pedroia.

    Iggy is a proven quantity on defense, but he is only a prospect on offense.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Why not just re-sign Drew?  The guy has been awesome with the bat lately and only has 3 errors.  Pretty damn good shortstop as far as I can see.

    (Waits for the negative spin against Drew.)

    Interesting idea...   There are a lot of variables in play, but that would give us some veteran presence on the left side of the IF while some of the young guys continue their development.

    Perhaps they'll make Drew a qualifying offer.  If he accepts, they might be overpaying, but only for one year.  That gives the Sox another year to sort out the left side of the IF without blocking anyone for the long term.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    I love Jose Iglesias and have since Theo signed him as an international FA. He is potentially the best defensive SS in the major leagues. If he can somehow manage to be a consistent .250 - .260 hitter with an OBP north of .300 he will be a very valuable player for the Tigers. That being said, I think Ben made a good move here, especially if Peavy is healthy for the stretch run and the playoffs. My reasoning is as follows, first you can never have too much pitching, especially quality starters. Not only is Peavy a quality starter, but by all accounts he is a leader in the clubhouse for the rotation; something the Sox have been lacking for a while  now. Second, the Sox really were selling high on Iglesias. Finally, as much as I like Jose, he wasn't the future at SS for the Sox. The guy who that title belongs to is currently posting an OPS of .867 in Pawtucket as a 20 year old, and we could easily see him at third in Boston before the year is over. Some guy named Xander...

    Mandolin player and reluctant admirer of the New York Yankees

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to moonslav59's comment:


    I like Peavy, but agree on Iggy.

    The fact is, I doubt Iggy would have started next year, even if we did not trade him. I do not think Ben values SS defense as much as some of us. I'm not trying to act smarter than Ben or put him down in anyway, but I hate to see the best fielding SS in MLB traded away with 4+ years of team control in our hands.

    Sorry if I am being overly dramatic, but I feel some of the reason our pitching has looked better is a result of our improved defense up the middle. Iggy's play at 3B was remarkable as well.

    Nice to see Holt make a good play at 3B tonight. Tough loss.



    I don't think it's as simple as Ben not valueing SS defense as much as others.  I have no way of knowing, but I would venture to say that he knows the value of strong defense at the SS position.  I very much value SS defense over offense.  I also very much value cost controlled players.  Even with that, I think this was a good trade.

    It's not even as simple as saying that Bogaerts will be an overall better SS than Iggy.  

    Does the move benefit the team overall, in both the short and long terms?   When you consider all the factors, I believe it does.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

     

    My bigger concern is for the future.  I was prepared to write the 2013 season off as the bridge year and I was fine with that because I could see the other end of the bridge.  It had a GG SS and a veteran 2B as the anchors to the IF.  Now all this team has is the 2B and a promising prospect, and prospects scare me, especially those who've never had a ML at-bat.  I remember Andy Marte - that great 3B who was going to rewrite the record books. 



    If prospects scare you, you should be glad that we traded Iggy and kept Drew, who is virtually the same age as Pedroia.

    Iggy is a proven quantity on defense, but he is only a prospect on offense.




    Drew, Holt and Bogy will give us adequate defense without the flash.  At age Bogy 20 has already surpassed anything Iggy accomplished offensively in the minors which usually points towards someone special.  Offensively I see Iggy being another Ozzie Smith where Bogy could be the Red Sox version of Manny Machado.

     

     

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Sorry if I am being overly dramatic, but I feel some of the reason our pitching has looked better is a result of our improved defense up the middle. Iggy's play at 3B was remarkable as well.

     



    Now you're really not being objective.  Iggy's UZR/150 at 3B was -33.1.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I hadn't looked that up, since Iggy has played less than 300 innings at 3rd. That number surprises me. Although UZR/150 is supposed to only be used in sample sizes larger than 2 years to be definitive, I stand corrected. Plus, I have been known to use UZR/150 to make points myself in somewhat small sample sizes as well (usually with a sample size warning attached however).

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    It is all about perceptions and first impressions. Whatever Iggy's stats were with the Red Sox..he is a young and incredibly well-liked player. We Red Sox fans tend to get attached to our young and upcoming players.

    I didn't like this trade..but I understood it based on the needs of each position. We needed pitching and I guess that's the bottom line.

    Back to perceptions and first impressions....Iggy made a good first impression in Detroit. I feel like there is a decent amount of pressure on Peavy to make a good first impression in Boston. If Peavy comes out and pitches badly..it does add fuel to the trade discussion and there will be no shortage of people second guessing the trade ( including myself!) ....just the nature of being a baseball fan :-)

     

    **********************************************************************

    " My response  in order of your questions/concerns: I don't know who that poster is but I find them somewhat creepy.Yes..and if the well wishes are sincere..then thank you. I didn't see that post. It's difficult to really "know" anything without trust..more importantly it doesn't matter to me. I hope you are well too, I mean that sincerely...and as to your final question...I believe very strongly in a bit of advice given by Vito Corleone....."

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Im still happy with the move. And no, the pressure is not on Peavy now because Iggy got a hit.

     



    Sure it is.  If Peavy does not live up to your predictions and Iggy keeps playing the infield well and hits as well as any other 9th man in the batting order, then the deal was a bad one.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    It'll be a while before we can judge that.  Starting a thread because Iggy had an RBI in his first game is just silly.

    Of course we all know if Peavy has a bad outing today you'll start another one about that.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm surprised nobody mentioned the RBI hit was a blooper ("lucky").

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You're being swayed too much by the gaudiness of his BA.  Even if he could maintain an average like that, which he can't, he's a slap hitter with no power.  Iggy has one home run and has not had an extra-base hit in over 20 games.   



    Perhaps you are being swayed by the specific 20 game sample size.

    [/QUOTE]

    Iggy's ISO in the majors is .075 .   In terms of power, he is awful.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Iggy Produces right away

    Does the move benefit the team overall, in both the short and long terms?   When you consider all the factors, I believe it does.

    Short term: probably yes, if Peavy remains healthy for 1.3 years.

    Long term: certainly not, unless after 2014 we get a comp pick for Peaavy that is better than Iggy. How can a player signed just to the end of 2014 be a longterm benefit?

    Iggy was under team control for 4.3 years. Montas is a good prospect as well although at a low level right now.

    This trade did not benefit our team beyond 2014. If Iggy does not become a full time starter by 2015, then the trade may not have hurt longterm, but it certainly cannot "benefit" long term.

    Sox4ever

     
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