IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    On the all-time Dodger leader list, Offerman leads A-Gon in HR, 8-3.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    Many have favorably compared Red Sox SS Julio Iglesias to HOF Ozzie Smith, like Iggy, Smith was a weak hitting prospect.  In 1979 he began the season 0-32, and reached the zenith of batting success on August 25th, when he went three for nine in a nineteen inning marathon against the Pirates, and finished the day batting a Mendoza like .218.

    In 1981, he was traded to the Cardinals for All Star SS Garry Templeton, who was younger, and was coming off hitting .322, .280, and .314 in the previous three seasons. Templeton not only was getting on base a lot more than Ozzie, (averaging 197 hits) but also was leading the league in triples collecting 50 of his career 106 total in the same time period.

     Ozzie became a fielding legend in St. Louis and his game winning HR in the '85 NLCS is remembered as much as him helping the Cardinals win a World Series in his first seaon with the Red-birds. Templeton despite having a 16 year career and collecting over 2000 hits, is remembered (if at all), as being the guy traded for a future HOF'er.

    Which brings me to IGGY and our own version of Garry Templeton, Stephen Drew. Except, as Lloyd Bensen would say, Senator, your no Garry Templeton. Heck, he's not even JD Drew. Yet the Sox are willing to make the same mistake the Padres made over 30 years ago. Except the Padres at least at that time got the younger and better player. The Sox are trading Iggy for an older and dubiously better player. Look, it doesn't matter ten cents if the Sox are paying Drew $9M, their SS average salary is stilll $5.5M, regardless of who plays there the most. You might as well play the best player.

     

     



    Well, I guess I can't say, "you're no Kevin Youkilus," because you do seem to have that same irrational streak in you.

    Where have you read anything about trading Iglesias?  Given ST and the first four games of the season, it seems pretty obvious Stephen Drew is the most likely guy to get traded, especially when the Sox spent $10M on Iglesias before he got into a single MLB game. 

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:

    In response to youkillus' comment:

     

    Many have favorably compared Red Sox SS Julio Iglesias to HOF Ozzie Smith, like Iggy, Smith was a weak hitting prospect.  In 1979 he began the season 0-32, and reached the zenith of batting success on August 25th, when he went three for nine in a nineteen inning marathon against the Pirates, and finished the day batting a Mendoza like .218.

    In 1981, he was traded to the Cardinals for All Star SS Garry Templeton, who was younger, and was coming off hitting .322, .280, and .314 in the previous three seasons. Templeton not only was getting on base a lot more than Ozzie, (averaging 197 hits) but also was leading the league in triples collecting 50 of his career 106 total in the same time period.

     Ozzie became a fielding legend in St. Louis and his game winning HR in the '85 NLCS is remembered as much as him helping the Cardinals win a World Series in his first seaon with the Red-birds. Templeton despite having a 16 year career and collecting over 2000 hits, is remembered (if at all), as being the guy traded for a future HOF'er.

    Which brings me to IGGY and our own version of Garry Templeton, Stephen Drew. Except, as Lloyd Bensen would say, Senator, your no Garry Templeton. Heck, he's not even JD Drew. Yet the Sox are willing to make the same mistake the Padres made over 30 years ago. Except the Padres at least at that time got the younger and better player. The Sox are trading Iggy for an older and dubiously better player. Look, it doesn't matter ten cents if the Sox are paying Drew $9M, their SS average salary is stilll $5.5M, regardless of who plays there the most. You might as well play the best player.

     

     

     



    Templeton was not blocking Ozzie Smith, so this analogy doesn't fit.  I guess it's this year's version of your Adrian Gonzalez morphing into Jose Offerman spiel.

     

    Drew, at most, is a one year rental that got bopped on the head and hasn't even had an opportunity yet to prove himself.  A win/win would be if the both Drew and Iggy play well and the Red Sox trade Drew for a prospect or an upgrade at another position.  

    You're a finance guy, right?  You do understand the idea of leverage, don't you?



    It doesn't work on a second level either.  Templeton was a much better player earlier in his career than Ozzie.

    By 1979, Templeton was a two-time AS, while Ozzie's OPS was .573.

    Unless Youkils is saying that we need to give Drew one more year while Iglesias develops.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:

     

    Maybe Drew Bledsoe/Tom Brady would be a little more analogous, although Bledsoe was one the better quarterbacks, but still not elite, and Drew is more in the middle of the pack.  In addition, IGGY has played in 3 1/3 games this season and a little lame duck time last year, compared to Ozzie Smith's 18 year career.  I was glad that Bledsoe was still around to fill in for Brady in the AFC Championship game when Brady went down.  

     




    I just wanted to throw out a different way of thinking about it. It's not a real trade, since they control both players. When you have to choose, which one would you take? Drew or Iggy? Ozzie or Garry?

     




    right now? Drew. Later this year/ next year? Iggy....I dont care about the other guys right now.

    Although Iggy has looked better and his avg would make it look like hes dominating, he hasnt hit the ball out of the infield. He will be the ft SS soon enough. Drew will have his job back Monday.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    southpaw777, make that Wednesday. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to youkillus' comment:

     

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:

     

    Maybe Drew Bledsoe/Tom Brady would be a little more analogous, although Bledsoe was one the better quarterbacks, but still not elite, and Drew is more in the middle of the pack.  In addition, IGGY has played in 3 1/3 games this season and a little lame duck time last year, compared to Ozzie Smith's 18 year career.  I was glad that Bledsoe was still around to fill in for Brady in the AFC Championship game when Brady went down.  

     




    I just wanted to throw out a different way of thinking about it. It's not a real trade, since they control both players. When you have to choose, which one would you take? Drew or Iggy? Ozzie or Garry?

     

     




    right now? Drew. Later this year/ next year? Iggy....I dont care about the other guys right now.

     

    Although Iggy has looked better and his avg would make it look like hes dominating, he hasnt hit the ball out of the infield. He will be the ft SS soon enough. Drew will have his job back Monday.



    If he gets a bunt single every game, I'm fine with that.

    It has never been about Iggy's hitting with me. This guys is a defensive whiz and should be out there everyday. Any hitting he gives us would be a bonus. The fact that he can sacrifice bunt better than any Sox player in recent memory, helps as well. When he does get on base, he is fast and has good instincts.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    My basic point remains:  Iglesias has progressed to the point he is the best SS the Sox have; however, for now the Sox own Drew and I have no problem with their starting him in the near term. I prefer Iglesias for lots of reasons, but can live with Drew for now. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    It doesn't work on a second level either.  Templeton was a much better player earlier in his career than Ozzie.

     

    By 1979, Templeton was a two-time AS, while Ozzie's OPS was .573.

    Unless Youkils is saying that we need to give Drew one more year while Iglesias develops.

     

    He's not saying that. His message is clear.

    When Ozzie was traded he already had 2 Gold Gloves and had just made the allstar team.

    The deal was a great deal for StL, but only if you can see that defense at the SS position is more valuable than almost any offense from that position can give you.

    Ozzie won 11 straight GGs after the deal. He was under a .700 OPS for the first 3 years there, but still finished in the top 21 MVP voting 2 times.

    Templeton actually ended up with a .632 OPS with SD after the trade. Ozzie had a .694 OPS with the Cards. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    My basic point remains:  Iglesias has progressed to the point he is the best SS the Sox have; however, for now the Sox own Drew and I have no problem with their starting him in the near term. I prefer Iglesias for lots of reasons, but can live with Drew for now. 



    This is the mentality that keeps us losing. Play the worse player, because he is getting paid more, and the GM needs to save face.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    My basic point remains:  Iglesias has progressed to the point he is the best SS the Sox have; however, for now the Sox own Drew and I have no problem with their starting him in the near term. I prefer Iglesias for lots of reasons, but can live with Drew for now. 

     



    This is the mentality that keeps us losing. Play the worse player, because he is getting paid more, and the GM needs to save face.

     



    except Drew > Iggy still. Maybe if Iggy keep up the good swinging in the next 400ish ABs we can revisit. Drew wasn't brought in to replace Iggy, he was brought in to give Iggy more time to develop his bat. His injury doesn't change that.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    My basic point remains:  Iglesias has progressed to the point he is the best SS the Sox have; however, for now the Sox own Drew and I have no problem with their starting him in the near term. I prefer Iglesias for lots of reasons, but can live with Drew for now. 

     



    This is the mentality that keeps us losing. Play the worse player, because he is getting paid more, and the GM needs to save face.

     

     



    except Drew > Iggy still. Maybe if Iggy keep up the good swinging in the next 400ish ABs we can revisit. Drew wasn't brought in to replace Iggy, he was brought in to give Iggy more time to develop his bat. His injury doesn't change that.

     



    I understand why they signed Drew. They think a SS needs to have an OPS above .650 to be a plus.

    I strongly disagree with this position and will go to my grave believing that fielding at the SS position is way way way more important than a .730 to .780 OPS.

    Maybe you can "revisit" after 400 ABs, but to me, I don't care if he hits .220 the next 1,000 ABs: he's my guy for our SS position.

     

    Iggy>Drew

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    My basic point remains:  Iglesias has progressed to the point he is the best SS the Sox have; however, for now the Sox own Drew and I have no problem with their starting him in the near term. I prefer Iglesias for lots of reasons, but can live with Drew for now. 

     



    This is the mentality that keeps us losing. Play the worse player, because he is getting paid more, and the GM needs to save face.

     

     



    except Drew > Iggy still. Maybe if Iggy keep up the good swinging in the next 400ish ABs we can revisit. Drew wasn't brought in to replace Iggy, he was brought in to give Iggy more time to develop his bat. His injury doesn't change that.

     



    Sure, and that's been my point all along.  There is an assumption that, because Iggy has 4 IF hits, he is suddenly a decent offensive player.  A month ago, the forum couldn't wait to get rid of him.

    FWIW, I always said I beleived that Iggy would develop into a good player.   But the idea that a guy with a career .533 OPS is better than a guy with a career .762, seems a little far-fetched.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    My basic point remains:  Iglesias has progressed to the point he is the best SS the Sox have; however, for now the Sox own Drew and I have no problem with their starting him in the near term. I prefer Iglesias for lots of reasons, but can live with Drew for now. 

     



    This is the mentality that keeps us losing. Play the worse player, because he is getting paid more, and the GM needs to save face.

     

     



    except Drew > Iggy still. Maybe if Iggy keep up the good swinging in the next 400ish ABs we can revisit. Drew wasn't brought in to replace Iggy, he was brought in to give Iggy more time to develop his bat. His injury doesn't change that.

     

     



    I understand why they signed Drew. They think a SS needs to have an OPS above .650 to be a plus.

     

    I strongly disagree with this position and will go to my grave believing that fielding at the SS position is way way way more important than a .730 to .780 OPS.

    Maybe you can "revisit" after 400 ABs, but to me, I don't care if he hits .220 the next 1,000 ABs: he's my guy for our SS position.

     

    Iggy>Drew



    OMG we disagreed. that must mean i am your foil. Or rather, YOU are MY foil Cool

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimedfred. Show jimedfred's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    What seemingly everyone is missing here is WHY Templeton was traded at all , if  you can believe Whitey Herzog's account. GT was indeed an All Star player, pretty darn good defense, great speed, gap power with mucho doubles & triples , 300 + B.A.. He'd even had 100 or more hits from BOTH sides of the plate in a season, unlke many switchhitters who favor one side.

    Templeton's problem was St.Louis fan perception of him as a loafer who didn't care about winnng. Templeton had the ability to play very well, but made defense LOOK easy, almost appearing nonchalant at times. Similiarly he was a great hitter, worked counts, selective before swinging, but St.L fans wanted appearance of tryng / swinging harder and probably more home runs. Racism also probably involved, as per Herzog's account.

    It culminated one day GT was loudly booed on field,, responded by giving fans the finger, and Whitey had to go drag him off the diamond. Trade was immediate, and Ozzie Smth did mature into an adequate offensive player later. But at time most fans felt Padres got better of the deal.

    I see no parallels with Iglesias / Drew situation beyond Iggy's glove skills. Drew, although quite productive in Az. prior to njury, was no Templeton.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimedfred. Show jimedfred's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    Of course, after trade GT lost bat speed, struggled at plate and became a shadow of former self. Cocaine may have also been nvolved, although Dick Williams, notoriously anti-drug , DID continue to play Templeton.

    I don't fault Ben C. for acquiring Drew to serve as one year fill-in until either Iggy develops his hitting or possibility of Bogaerts readiness emerges. After Drew comes back , if he plays well we can trade him in late June or so and give the job back to Iglesias.

    But given Iggy's play so far, I think Drew has to demonstrate signiicant offense to keep the job.As Moonslav says, Mark Belanger proved worthy of ML position for years.

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    My basic point remains:  Iglesias has progressed to the point he is the best SS the Sox have; however, for now the Sox own Drew and I have no problem with their starting him in the near term. I prefer Iglesias for lots of reasons, but can live with Drew for now. 

     



    This is the mentality that keeps us losing. Play the worse player, because he is getting paid more, and the GM needs to save face.

     

     



    except Drew > Iggy still. Maybe if Iggy keep up the good swinging in the next 400ish ABs we can revisit. Drew wasn't brought in to replace Iggy, he was brought in to give Iggy more time to develop his bat. His injury doesn't change that.

     

     



    I understand why they signed Drew. They think a SS needs to have an OPS above .650 to be a plus.

     

    I strongly disagree with this position and will go to my grave believing that fielding at the SS position is way way way more important than a .730 to .780 OPS.

    Maybe you can "revisit" after 400 ABs, but to me, I don't care if he hits .220 the next 1,000 ABs: he's my guy for our SS position.

     

    Iggy>Drew




    LOL, I like you have been beating the IGGy drum for more than a year! I still go back to the great Orioles teams with the great Mark Belanger. If they send them down I hope the fans in Boston skin this management! DEFENSE at SS the bat is only a plus, oh ya Iggy is currently leading the team and I believe baseball in average (Small Sample, who cares). I think Drew needs a setback!

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    My basic point remains:  Iglesias has progressed to the point he is the best SS the Sox have; however, for now the Sox own Drew and I have no problem with their starting him in the near term. I prefer Iglesias for lots of reasons, but can live with Drew for now. 

     



    This is the mentality that keeps us losing. Play the worse player, because he is getting paid more, and the GM needs to save face.

     



    It's not about the GM saving face.  It's about the organization recovering the most from both their shorter term investment in Drew and their longer term investment in Iggy. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    six games no errors! 4-2 record pitching looks great and the fielding makes it look better!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportsbozo1. Show sportsbozo1's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    I doubt very seriously that the debate will end anytime soon. The original arguement was that Iggy couldn't hit,well that arguement for the time being is caput! There is no comparing the two defensively because though there is a small sample size on Igggy he is a superior SS. If Drew doesn't hit lights out he can't be the every day SS in Boston and for the most part he can thank is sister Nancy for his ill fated position,and then the first thing he does is claim a concussion before the season even starts,he pulls a Nancy I've got a bloody hangnail....Sorry no empathy for another Drew...

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to sportsbozo1's comment:

    I doubt very seriously that the debate will end anytime soon. The original arguement was that Iggy couldn't hit,well that arguement for the time being is caput! There is no comparing the two defensively because though there is a small sample size on Igggy he is a superior SS. If Drew doesn't hit lights out he can't be the every day SS in Boston and for the most part he can thank is sister Nancy for his ill fated position,and then the first thing he does is claim a concussion before the season even starts,he pulls a Nancy I've got a bloody hangnail....Sorry no empathy for another Drew...



    Not for nothing, but claiming someone is pretending to have a concussion, after he took a fastball to the head, is beyond bizarre.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    Sure, and that's been my point all along.  There is an assumption that, because Iggy has 4 IF hits, he is suddenly a decent offensive player.  A month ago, the forum couldn't wait to get rid of him.

     

    Many of us on this forum wanted Iggy a month ago, a year ago, and even 2 years ago. BTW, Iggy's ST offensive stats were not great, but he hit the ball hard. Now, he's bunting and legging out hits. Nothing has changed in my eyes concerning Igg's offense. It's his defense that makes him the right choice as our FT SS.

     

    FWIW, I always said I beleived that Iggy would develop into a good player.   But the idea that a guy with a career .533 OPS is better than a guy with a career .762, seems a little far-fetched.

    You don't take the career OPS of a developing player and act like that is where he is at now, or at least I don't.  And, Drew has only hit for a .762 OPS or better in 2 of the last 6 years, so I'm not sure I'd project .762 for 2013.

    I am pretty certain that Dr.w would have at least 100 points over Iggy if they both played 150 games and were 100% healthy all year (maybe that's a big if), but I'll still take Iggy.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to jimedfred's comment:

    What seemingly everyone is missing here is WHY Templeton was traded at all , if  you can believe Whitey Herzog's account. GT was indeed an All Star player, pretty darn good defense, great speed, gap power with mucho doubles & triples , 300 + B.A.. He'd even had 100 or more hits from BOTH sides of the plate in a season, unlke many switchhitters who favor one side.

    Templeton's problem was St.Louis fan perception of him as a loafer who didn't care about winnng. Templeton had the ability to play very well, but made defense LOOK easy, almost appearing nonchalant at times. Similiarly he was a great hitter, worked counts, selective before swinging, but St.L fans wanted appearance of tryng / swinging harder and probably more home runs. Racism also probably involved, as per Herzog's account.

    It culminated one day GT was loudly booed on field,, responded by giving fans the finger, and Whitey had to go drag him off the diamond. Trade was immediate, and Ozzie Smth did mature into an adequate offensive player later. But at time most fans felt Padres got better of the deal.

    I see no parallels with Iglesias / Drew situation beyond Iggy's glove skills. Drew, although quite productive in Az. prior to njury, was no Templeton.



    Great post, jim.

    I do think many overvalued Gary's offense, although it was a different era.

    He had some very good BAs, lots of triples and SBs, but his OBP and OPS were no better than Drew's.

    OBP/OPS in first 6 years...

    Garry's        Stephen's

    314/.675  357/874

    336/786   313/683

    303/680  333/836

    331/790  320/748

    342/759  352/810

    315/709  309/657

    They look pretty simlar to me.

    Drew career: .265/.328/.433/.762 (3417 PAs)

    Garry w/STL: .305/.325/.418/.743 (2990 PAs)

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: IGGY traded for Garry Templeton

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    My basic point remains:  Iglesias has progressed to the point he is the best SS the Sox have; however, for now the Sox own Drew and I have no problem with their starting him in the near term. I prefer Iglesias for lots of reasons, but can live with Drew for now. 

     



    This is the mentality that keeps us losing. Play the worse player, because he is getting paid more, and the GM needs to save face.

     

     



    except Drew > Iggy still. Maybe if Iggy keep up the good swinging in the next 400ish ABs we can revisit. Drew wasn't brought in to replace Iggy, he was brought in to give Iggy more time to develop his bat. His injury doesn't change that.

     

     



    I understand why they signed Drew. They think a SS needs to have an OPS above .650 to be a plus.

     

    I strongly disagree with this position and will go to my grave believing that fielding at the SS position is way way way more important than a .730 to .780 OPS.

    Maybe you can "revisit" after 400 ABs, but to me, I don't care if he hits .220 the next 1,000 ABs: he's my guy for our SS position.

     

    Iggy>Drew

     



    OMG we disagreed. that must mean i am your foil. Or rather, YOU are MY foil Cool

     

    Foil smoil, you must be me, because we are always here at the same time.




     

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