IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucbom. Show lucbom's posts

    IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    Is Farrell a Francona clone when it comes to having a "blind eye" when his closer is not pitching as effectively as one whould like to see a closer pitch.  First, IMO it appears that Farrell is an upgrade over Francona, but last night when Hamraham (AKA Hanrahan) was doing his immatation of Paps closing a game, the one where Paps would get 1, 2, or 3 runners on base before Paps would maybe close a game and get a save, Farrell and his pitching coach Nieves seem to have a "blind eye" to Hamraham's melt down and went way to long, way to long before pulling Hamraham, which was after Hamraham gives up five (5) runs.  Most of the Red Sox Nation would agree that Farrell/Nieves should have pulled Hamraham way before the 3 run blast.  If this thought is appropriate, then let's hope that Farrell and Nieves will recognize a pitchers melt down long before its to late.  Its very early in the season and it was only one loss even if it was to a division team, so its GO SOX!  Lets rebound on Thursday for our third consecutive series sweep of the young season.   Smile

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    No,  he's  not a  clone, he's like every other manager who  sticks with his closer.

     

     
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    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

      Cloining human is illegal in the States.

     
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    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    Hahaha.  Farrell is not a Francona clone.  But there are many poster clones who will arm-chair hindsight pick apart pitching moves the same stupid way every time.  

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucbom. Show lucbom's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    In response to mryazz's comment:

    In response to lucbom's comment:

     

    Is Farrell a Francona clone when it comes to having a "blind eye" when his closer is not pitching as effectively as one whould like to see a closer pitch.  First, IMO it appears that Farrell is an upgrade over Francona, but last night when Hamraham (AKA Hanrahan) was doing his immatation of Paps closing a game, the one where Paps would get 1, 2, or 3 runners on base before Paps would maybe close a game and get a save, Farrell and his pitching coach Nieves seem to have a "blind eye" to Hamraham's melt down and went way to long, way to long before pulling Hamraham, which was after Hamraham gives up five (5) runs.  Most of the Red Sox Nation would agree that Farrell/Nieves should have pulled Hamraham way before the 3 run blast.  If this thought is appropriate, then let's hope that Farrell and Nieves will recognize a pitchers melt down long before its to late.  Its very early in the season and it was only one loss even if it was to a division team, so its GO SOX!  Lets rebound on Thursday for our third consecutive series sweep of the young season.   Smile

     



    hindsight is golden; so is silence.

     

          Your right  "mryazz", but should'nt a Manager and/or a Pitching Coach have a sense of when a pitcher has it or not, and not after the damage has been done.  I think its called foresight which is also golden, a real gift for a Manager and a teams success.  GO SOX!  Smile


     

     

     

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    In response to lucbom's comment:

    In response to mryazz's comment:

     

    In response to lucbom's comment:

     

    Is Farrell a Francona clone when it comes to having a "blind eye" when his closer is not pitching as effectively as one whould like to see a closer pitch.  First, IMO it appears that Farrell is an upgrade over Francona, but last night when Hamraham (AKA Hanrahan) was doing his immatation of Paps closing a game, the one where Paps would get 1, 2, or 3 runners on base before Paps would maybe close a game and get a save, Farrell and his pitching coach Nieves seem to have a "blind eye" to Hamraham's melt down and went way to long, way to long before pulling Hamraham, which was after Hamraham gives up five (5) runs.  Most of the Red Sox Nation would agree that Farrell/Nieves should have pulled Hamraham way before the 3 run blast.  If this thought is appropriate, then let's hope that Farrell and Nieves will recognize a pitchers melt down long before its to late.  Its very early in the season and it was only one loss even if it was to a division team, so its GO SOX!  Lets rebound on Thursday for our third consecutive series sweep of the young season.   Smile

     



    hindsight is golden; so is silence.

     

     

          Your right  "mryazz", but should'nt a Manager and/or a Pitching Coach have a sense of when a pitcher has it or not, and not after the damage has been done.  I think its called foresight which is also golden, a real gift for a Manager and a teams success.  GO SOX!  Smile


     

     

     

     



    And who says Farrrell doesn't have that foresight? No manager is going to make the right move all the time, especially when it comes to removing a pitcher. For every time fans are yelling at the TV for the manager to remove the pitcher and then the pitcher gives up a big hit, there are 20 times when they do the same and the pitcher gets out of the inning.

    And contrary to the belief of many fans, a crystal ball does not come with the manager's job. 

     
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    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    i hope so. Francona is undefeated in the WS with 2 rings.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    In response to mef429's comment:

    i hope so. Francona is undefeated in the WS with 2 rings.



    I was thinking the same thing.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    i hope so. Francona is undefeated in the WS with 2 rings.


     



    I was thinking the same thing.

     

    Francona was a dullard who happened upon a great situation in Boston. When he had a normal amount of talent in Philly his W-L record stunk. He made the same stupid mistakes over and over again, overprotected his players through his "good old boy network" and showed all the tactical creativity of drywall. So far Farrell has at least shown that he has something besides a vacumn between his ears.

     

     




     

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    All managers are "clones" to some degree.

    The concept of a closer goes against the "team" concept. You put all your eggs in one basket when you use one man as a closer. No that I believe in the "closer by commitee" concept completely, but when you have a pitcher who is getting guys out ( in this case Bailey) and that pitcher is fresh and capable of sealing the deal....why pull his @ss out of the game and chance another guy blowing it?....stay with the guy until he falters.

    Today's concept on how to use bullpens is completely flawed and needs to be fixed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ANONMD08. Show ANONMD08's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    If Hanrahan got them out 1,2,3 we wouldn't be having this conversation. This is sports. It happens everywhere. I've seen Mariano Rivera blow saves. IT HAPPENS. It's only one game. Just move on to the next.

     
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    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    His set up men did there job, I don't blame this on Farrell. As far as I'm concerned he made the right moves.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    Hey lucbom, did Hanrahan not have 'it' or did he get squeezed??

    If Ball 3 or Ball 4 were called strikes, like they appeared to be in the Amica pitch zone, then Hanrahan would have had 'IT' and would have notched the expected save.

    Plus, closers are just that...CLOSERS...they're job is to get the save...if things happen and they blow it, then thats baseball.

    So you're the manager...when do you pull him last night:

    • After Davis HR?
    • After getting two quick outs?
    • After giving up the lazy single to Flaherty?
    • After Casilla SB?
    • After walking Reimhold?
    • After getting squeezed and walking McLouth?
    • After the wild pitch?

    The next pitch was a 3-run HR and game over...so when do you pull him??

    Also before you answer, also answer what the impact would be on that player going forward, from a confidence perspective. Because pulling him anytime before the 3-run HR would also dictate removal of him as closer, since you just blew the players confidence to get the job done.

    Also keep in mind, you don't have the luxury of second guessing when you are making on the field manager decisions.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    In response to Soxdog67's comment:

    Hey lucbom, did Hanrahan not have 'it' or did he get squeezed??

    If Ball 3 or Ball 4 were called strikes, like they appeared to be in the Amica pitch zone, then Hanrahan would have had 'IT' and would have notched the expected save.

    Plus, closers are just that...CLOSERS...they're job is to get the save...if things happen and they blow it, then thats baseball.

    So you're the manager...when do you pull him last night:

    • After Davis HR?
    • After getting two quick outs?
    • After giving up the lazy single to Flaherty?
    • After Casilla SB?
    • After walking Reimhold?
    • After getting squeezed and walking McLouth?
    • After the wild pitch?

    The next pitch was a 3-run HR and game over...so when do you pull him??

    Also before you answer, also answer what the impact would be on that player going forward, from a confidence perspective. Because pulling him anytime before the 3-run HR would also dictate removal of him as closer, since you just blew the players confidence to get the job done.

    Also keep in mind, you don't have the luxury of second guessing when you are making on the field manager decisions.




    Answer: you don't pull him. You stick with him unless this becomes a pattern of failure. This is not going to happen often, hopefully, and if it does, Bailey is waiting in the wings to close.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    i hope so. Francona is undefeated in the WS with 2 rings.


     



    I was thinking the same thing.

     

    Francona was a dullard who happened upon a great situation in Boston. When he had a normal amount of talent in Philly his W-L record stunk. He made the same stupid mistakes over and over again, overprotected his players through his "good old boy network" and showed all the tactical creativity of drywall. So far Farrell has at least shown that he has something besides a vacumn between his ears.

     

     




     

     



    Normal amount of talent? Are you serious. The rest of your post has no credibility.

     

    Can you even name the players on those teams. The Phillies did not have "normal amount of talent." 

    The pitching staff his last year was garbage. Their relievers had ERAs of 5.86 (closer), 4.34, 4.40, 6.55, 4.13. Even taking into consideration that ERAs don't have a lot of value for reliever, that's horrible.

    The starters -- Randy Wolf (only double-digit winner but a 4.36 ERA), Robert Person, Schilling (just 16 starts), Andy Ashby, Bruce Chen, Paul Byrd (6.51 ERA).

    And there were maybe four decent guys in the lineup -- Rolen and Bobby Abreua the best. The other two catcher Mike Liebethal just 108 games, however, and maybe Pat Burrell. If those last two are your third- and fourth-best players in the lineup, you have issues.

    No bench and the rest was garbage.

    Their lineup in 1999 was better and they won 77 games. The pitching -- GARBAGE. Here are the ERAs of the starters -- 4.60, 3.54 (Schilling), 5.63, 4.27, 5.55 and 5.12. And again -- no bullpen. Wayne Gomes was the closer. WAYNE FREAKIN' GOMES. The team's ERA was 4.92, whick scked even for the steroid era (fourth from the bottom).

    That the 1999 team won 77 games with that pitching staff was actually a great accomplishment.

    So calling his Phillies' teams as normal amount of talent negates anything you say afterward. You could say the sky is blue and it would be meaningless.

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    In response to royf19's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    i hope so. Francona is undefeated in the WS with 2 rings.


     



    I was thinking the same thing.

     

    Francona was a dullard who happened upon a great situation in Boston. When he had a normal amount of talent in Philly his W-L record stunk. He made the same stupid mistakes over and over again, overprotected his players through his "good old boy network" and showed all the tactical creativity of drywall. So far Farrell has at least shown that he has something besides a vacumn between his ears.

     

     




     

     



    Normal amount of talent? Are you serious. The rest of your post has no credibility.

     

    Can you even name the players on those teams. The Phillies did not have "normal amount of talent." 

    The pitching staff his last year was garbage. Their relievers had ERAs of 5.86 (closer), 4.34, 4.40, 6.55, 4.13. Even taking into consideration that ERAs don't have a lot of value for reliever, that's horrible.

    The starters -- Randy Wolf (only double-digit winner but a 4.36 ERA), Robert Person, Schilling (just 16 starts), Andy Ashby, Bruce Chen, Paul Byrd (6.51 ERA).

    And there were maybe four decent guys in the lineup -- Rolen and Bobby Abreua the best. The other two catcher Mike Liebethal just 108 games, however, and maybe Pat Burrell. If those last two are your third- and fourth-best players in the lineup, you have issues.

    No bench and the rest was garbage.

    Their lineup in 1999 was better and they won 77 games. The pitching -- GARBAGE. Here are the ERAs of the starters -- 4.60, 3.54 (Schilling), 5.63, 4.27, 5.55 and 5.12. And again -- no bullpen. Wayne Gomes was the closer. WAYNE FREAKIN' GOMES. The team's ERA was 4.92, whick scked even for the steroid era (fourth from the bottom).

    That the 1999 team won 77 games with that pitching staff was actually a great accomplishment.

    So calling his Phillies' teams as normal amount of talent negates anything you say afterward. You could say the sky is blue and it would be meaningless.



    Francona was in Boston during the decline in pitching talent that started in 2008. His pitching staff, you claim, stunk for him in Philly too. Coincidence? Probably not. While he was here Francona consistently made the mistake of leaving a tiring pitcher in the game too long, until the other team had basically salted the game away. He never learned from those mistakes, not even at the very end here. I do not have ill will towards him wherever his future takes him, but I do not miss him here.

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanCap. Show SanCap's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    In response to mryazz's comment:

     

    as far as i'm concerned he did get the save. he was squeezed on two pitches that were strikes.

    unfortunately, that's part of baseball and it sux.

     

     



    Yes, he got strike 3 and strike 4.  Maybe that would have been time to make a move, but watching the game, I didn't expect to see Farrell take him out there at the time.  I expected he'd get the next guy.

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    i hope so. Francona is undefeated in the WS with 2 rings.


     



    I was thinking the same thing.

     

    Francona was a dullard who happened upon a great situation in Boston. When he had a normal amount of talent in Philly his W-L record stunk. He made the same stupid mistakes over and over again, overprotected his players through his "good old boy network" and showed all the tactical creativity of drywall. So far Farrell has at least shown that he has something besides a vacumn between his ears.

     

     




     

     



    Normal amount of talent? Are you serious. The rest of your post has no credibility.

     

    Can you even name the players on those teams. The Phillies did not have "normal amount of talent." 

    The pitching staff his last year was garbage. Their relievers had ERAs of 5.86 (closer), 4.34, 4.40, 6.55, 4.13. Even taking into consideration that ERAs don't have a lot of value for reliever, that's horrible.

    The starters -- Randy Wolf (only double-digit winner but a 4.36 ERA), Robert Person, Schilling (just 16 starts), Andy Ashby, Bruce Chen, Paul Byrd (6.51 ERA).

    And there were maybe four decent guys in the lineup -- Rolen and Bobby Abreua the best. The other two catcher Mike Liebethal just 108 games, however, and maybe Pat Burrell. If those last two are your third- and fourth-best players in the lineup, you have issues.

    No bench and the rest was garbage.

    Their lineup in 1999 was better and they won 77 games. The pitching -- GARBAGE. Here are the ERAs of the starters -- 4.60, 3.54 (Schilling), 5.63, 4.27, 5.55 and 5.12. And again -- no bullpen. Wayne Gomes was the closer. WAYNE FREAKIN' GOMES. The team's ERA was 4.92, whick scked even for the steroid era (fourth from the bottom).

    That the 1999 team won 77 games with that pitching staff was actually a great accomplishment.

    So calling his Phillies' teams as normal amount of talent negates anything you say afterward. You could say the sky is blue and it would be meaningless.

     



    Francona was in Boston during the decline in pitching talent that started in 2008. His pitching staff, you claim, stunk for him in Philly too. Coincidence? Probably not. While he was here Francona consistently made the mistake of leaving a tiring pitcher in the game too long, until the other team had basically salted the game away. He never learned from those mistakes, not even at the very end here. I do not have ill will towards him wherever his future takes him, but I do not miss him here.

     



    How is it Francona's fault that there was a decline in pitching talent or that he had garbage for pitching in Philadelphia.

    NEWS ITEM: This is not the Patriots where the coach/manager is also responsible for signing players. 

    The quality pitchers pitched well from 2008 to 2011, just like Schilling pitched well for him in Philly when he was healthy.

    The problem in Philly was they very few quality arms. The problem in Boston after 2008 was no depth so that when someone got hurt, especially in 2011. Nothing wrong with Beckett, Lester and Buchholz in 2011 when they were healthy. Name a manager who would have done anything with the garbage that came after those three. 

     And you're saying the decline "started in 2008." The Sox were tied for fourth in the AL in ERA in 2008. Wow, that's terrible.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Strike13. Show Strike13's posts

    Re: IS FARRELL A FRANCONA CLONE?

    I am just as disappointed as the rest of you that we couldn't hold our lead last night.  However, this is ONE game, at the beginning of the season.  No reason to point fingers at Farrell or Hanrahan where there has not been consistent suckage!

     
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