Is it either or time?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Is it either or time?

    This team was on the playoff bubble before the Bailey news. Before the Beckett news. Before the decision to send Iggy and Lava down. 

    I'm not writing this team off, even with the new injuries and what I percieve to be poor 25 man roster choices, but I have to ask my self this question:

    Should we make a deal that puts us back into the race and maybe sacrifices some of our future, stay status quo and pray for some miracles, or just shoot for 2013 and be sellers this July?

    Is it too late to pull off a a major deal like this one with the White Sox?

      Trade: 
    Jarrod Saltalamacchia (Blocking Lava.)
    Michael Bowden (No options.)
    Lars Anderson  (Blocked by AGon.)
    Will Middlebrooks (Cecchini  & Bogaerts are better.)
    Anthony Ranaudo (Could end up haunting us.)
    Alex Wilson (He's 25.)

      For: 
    Gavin Floyd: 12:$7M, 13:$9.5M club option ($3.9M on cap in '12)
    Matt Thorton: 12:$5.5M, 13:$5.5M, 14:$6M club option ($1M buyout)
    Jesse Crain: 12:$4.5M, 13:$4.5M ($4.33M on cap '12 & '13)

    White Sox save:
    2012: $17M, 2013: $19.5M, 2014: $6M, TOTAL: $42.5M.

    The 2012 Sox New Roster:
    C:   Lava Shopp
    1B: AGon Papi (DH)
    2B: Pedey
    3B: Youk Punto
    SS: Iggy  Aviles
    LF: Crawford DMac
    CF: Ellsbury
    RF: Ross  Sweeney
    S1: Beckett
    S2: Lester
    S3: Buchholtz
    S4: Floyd
    S5: Doubront (Dice-K)
    S6: Cook
    CL: Bard/Thorton (Bailey)
    R2: Thorton/Bard
    R3: Crain
    R4: Melancon
    R5: Aceves
    R6: Morales
    Tazawa, Padilla, Miller and others

    -OR-

    Pack it in and...
    Deal: Youk, Salty or almost anyone else that won't be around in 2013 or 2014.

    I'm not for the second option, but I really am not liking the stand pat option either tonight.


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In short you are saying the Red Sox will not make the play-offs. Can I quote you ont this?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    Youk is far more valuable as a member of the RS than as trade bait,  given his injury struggles and now his age. I'm not saying he doesn't have a 140G/.300/.400/30/110/GG in him, but his trade value won't reflect that.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    wrong. Any team in the world would over-pay for a healthy Youk this July, as he can play 1B and 3B. Any team in the world.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliamsjr. Show hankwilliamsjr's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    Salty has an option, so he is not blocking "Levern". Terrible trade idea for expensive old dumpster trash.

    Red Sox are better off signing a veteran like Oswalt to a one year deal with incentives, and looking to Crawford's return as the opportunity to summer unload Ellsbury and blocked prospects (they are obvious so don't blow off your stooge head) for the young RH OF'er superstar bat that the Red Sox are missing. DiceK will return in time to deepen starting staff, and the starters make the pen, not the pen makes the starters.

    Continue to develop the youth, and blow up "InEpstein's" only deep in the summer if the Red Sox are clearly not championship contenders with any value based moves.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]In short you are saying the Red Sox will not make the play-offs. Can I quote you ont this?
    Posted by EnchiladaT[/QUOTE]

    I had us making the playoffs by about 1-2 games before the bailey injury. I never said we "will not make the playoffs", but at this point in time, I wouldn't bet on it. 

    (BTW, I'm not a bettor.)

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is it either or time? : I had us making the playoffs by about 1-2 games before the bailey injury. I never said we "will not make the playoffs", but at this point in time, I wouldn't bet on it.  (BTW, I'm not a bettor.)
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    It's a long season.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]wrong. Any team in the world would over-pay for a healthy Youk this July, as he can play 1B and 3B. Any team in the world.
    Posted by EnchiladaT[/QUOTE]

    Not wrong, just your opinion. I could, however, see him command a heftier price to TB or SF; 2 teams (who've won recently) who are on the cusp this yr and who are light in the hitting dep't. Even Pha is a possibility if Utley doesn't come around (Polanco would move back to 2nd) and/or Howard (plug-in at 1st)
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from iamme17. Show iamme17's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]wrong. Any team in the world would over-pay for a healthy Youk this July, as he can play 1B and 3B. Any team in the world.
    Posted by EnchiladaT[/QUOTE] Half the teams wouldn't pick up youk's 12 million contract for any reason and the few teams that need some offense wouldn't offer much at all in return.Look at what Quenton cost the padres,2 "prospects" that weren't in san diego's top 15 farm list 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    No need to worry about for a Yankee fan. How about a list and rundown of the current Yankee team injuries. We are extremely interested here. Waiting with baited breath.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    As usual, a provocative and well thought out discussion initiated by Moon. I think anyone thinking we had a chance before the Bailey announcement, has very good reason to be concerned now. Our already suspect bullpen is officially in shambles. If Bard goes back, as I expect, our starters are thinner than ever. Combine this with Crawford's injury and the health questions surrounding Youk, Buch, and now "ever the diva" Beckett, and it just looks like it's all held together by rubber bands and wishful thinking. And we haven't even played an inning yet! I gave us a 15-20% chance before Bailey, but it's now a 15-20% chance.

    P.S.
        Anyone else think Beckett is trying to avoid opening up against Detroit's fearsom line-up? Don't worry, he'll eventually find a doc willing to advise him to rest for a couple of weeks. Could the 3rd one be a charm? Stay tuned!





    In Response to Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]This team was on the playoff bubble before the Bailey news. Before the Beckett news. Before the decision to send Iggy and Lava down.  I'm not writing this team off, even with the new injuries and what I percieve to be poor 25 man roster choices, but I have to ask my self this question: Should we make a deal that puts us back into the race and maybe sacrifices some of our future, stay status quo and pray for some miracles, or just shoot for 2013 and be sellers this July? Is it too late to pull off a a major deal like this one with the White Sox?   Trade:  Jarrod Saltalamacchia (Blocking Lava.) Michael Bowden (No options.) Lars Anderson  (Blocked by AGon.) Will Middlebrooks (Cecchini  & Bogaerts are better.) Anthony Ranaudo (Could end up haunting us.) Alex Wilson (He's 25.)   For:  Gavin Floyd:  12 :$7M,  13 :$9.5M club option ($3.9M on cap in '12) Matt Thorton:  12 :$5.5M,  13 :$5.5M,  14 :$6M club option ($1M buyout) Jesse Crain:  12 :$4.5M,  13 :$4.5M ($4.33M on cap '12 & '13) White Sox save: 2012: $17M, 2013: $19.5M, 2014: $6M, TOTAL: $42.5M. The 2012 Sox New Roster: C:   Lava Shopp 1B: AGon Papi (DH) 2B: Pedey 3B: Youk Punto SS: Iggy  Aviles LF: Crawford DMac CF: Ellsbury RF: Ross  Sweeney S1: Beckett S2: Lester S3: Buchholtz S4: Floyd S5: Doubront (Dice-K) S6: Cook CL: Bard/Thorton (Bailey) R2: Thorton/Bard R3: Crain R4: Melancon R5: Aceves R6: Morales Tazawa, Padilla, Miller and others -OR- Pack it in and... Deal: Youk, Salty or almost anyone else that won't be around in 2013 or 2014. I'm not for the second option, but I really am not liking the stand pat option either tonight.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?


    Moon,

       It's a long season.  Let's wait and see what our needxs really end up being.  I know what appears to be the needs, but let's give it a little time to flesh out and see what they actually are.



     



     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from teilhardian. Show teilhardian's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    Good post moon..I definitely think the Red Sox need to make a deal for a starter or more bullpen help...They have a tough opening schedule for the first 3 weeks until they meet the Twinkies on April 23 right after the Yankees series....If they can play .500 ball until then, get a re-energized Crawford back a few weeks later, and somehow find some decent pitching help by that time, their outlook would be a bit brighter...
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]As usual, a provocative and well thought out discussion initiated by Moon. I think anyone thinking we had a chance before the Bailey announcement, has very good reason to be concerned now. Our already suspect bullpen is officially in shambles. If Bard goes back, as I expect, our starters are thinner than ever. Combine this with Crawford's injury and the health questions surrounding Youk, Buch, and now "ever the diva" Beckett, and it just looks like it's all held together by rubber bands and wishful thinking. And we haven't even played an inning yet! I gave us a 15-20% chance before Bailey, but it's now a 15-20% chance. P.S.     Anyone else think Beckett is trying to avoid opening up against Detroit's fearsom line-up? Don't worry, he'll eventually find a doc willing to advise him to rest for a couple of weeks. Could the 3rd one be a charm? Stay tuned! In Response to Is it either or time? :
    Posted by Teakus[/QUOTE]
    Have you checked to see how Beckett fared against the Yankees' "fearsome lineup" in 2011? A lack of guts has never been one of his problems.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    This 2012 Detroit team is going to absolutely devastate pitching staff's, making even the greatest pitchers of our age loathe to face them. I predict 110-115 wins, and great emotional trauma upon the psyches of AL pitchers daring to oppose them. I'm telling you, they're gonna be a freaking handful this season!





    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is it either or time? : Have you checked to see how Beckett fared against the Yankees' "fearsome lineup" in 2011? A lack of guts has never been one of his problems.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is it either or time? : Have you checked to see how Beckett fared against the Yankees' "fearsome lineup" in 2011? A lack of guts has never been one of his problems.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    I wonder if there is a way to hypnotyze Beckett so he believes he is always throwing against the Jangees....
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimedfred. Show jimedfred's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    Teakus : Could you be overthinking this ? Any major league starter who truly is afraid to face any lineup has no business being in the game.
    Even when the 2007 Red Sox lineup featured Ortiz and Manny back to back ( remember what they did to Angels in playoffs ? ) I don't believe any pitchers were afraid to pitch to them.
    And Cabrera / Fielder have a long ways to go to seem more daunting than Papi/Manny circa 2007. Part of just BEING a ML player is having preternatural self-confidence. As Crash Davis told Nuke LaLoosh, play the game with arrogance.

    Did you EVER play ANY sports at competitive levels ? Ever succeed at anything ?

    And Moonslav.....I'm almost ashamed of you. Previously a rational voice of relative objectivity , if a trifle optimistic, yet now in a panic ? Either make a poor trade out of desperation or blow up the team and build for 2013 ?

    Gee, I don't know, maybe we might, like......play a real game or two first ?

    See if Melancon or Aceves can close in Boston's bright lights, or even move Bard to closer and deploy Cook as starter until Dice-K replaces him or Felix ?
    Overreaction and panic are not what is needed, calm and clear-eyed realism is.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]Teakus : Could you be overthinking this ? Any major league starter who truly is afraid to face any lineup has no business being in the game. Even when the 2007 Red Sox lineup featured Ortiz and Manny back to back ( remember what they did to Angels in playoffs ? ) I don't believe any pitchers were afraid to pitch to them. And Cabrera / Fielder have a long ways to go to seem more daunting than Papi/Manny circa 2007. Part of just BEING a ML player is having preternatural self-confidence. As Crash Davis told Nuke LaLoosh, play the game with arrogance. Did you EVER play ANY sports at competitive levels ? Ever succeed at anything ? And Moonslav.....I'm almost ashamed of you. Previously a rational voice of relative objectivity , if a trifle optimistic, yet now in a panic ? Either make a poor trade out of desperation or blow up the team and build for 2013 ? Gee, I don't know, maybe we might, like......play a real game or two first ? See if Melancon or Aceves can close in Boston's bright lights, or even move Bard to closer and deploy Cook as starter until Dice-K replaces him or Felix ? Overreaction and panic are not what is needed, calm and clear-eyed realism is.
    Posted by jimedfred[/QUOTE]carnie endorses this post.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]This 2012 Detroit team is going to absolutely devastate pitching staff's, making even the greatest pitchers of our age loathe to face them. I predict 110-115 wins, and great emotional trauma upon the psyches of AL pitchers daring to oppose them. I'm telling you, they're gonna be a freaking handful this season! In Response to Re: Is it either or time? :
    Posted by Teakus[/QUOTE]
    Your comments demonstrate only that you know nothing about the inner lives of professional pitchers, especially those at the ML level.  Do you really think they quake in their boots at the mere thought of facing power hitters? These pitchers didn't get to the majors without being competitive. Most of them have a lot of pride -- if not arrogance. 
    This attitude forms early in pitchers who are successful at any level beyond high school  -- in college, in the minors, certainly in the majors. It goes with the position, which, arguably is the most pressure filled in team sports. If you don't think you can get anybody out, check the Ford dealership to see if they need a salesman -- or a janitor.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is it either or time? : I had us making the playoffs by about 1-2 games before the bailey injury. I never said we "will not make the playoffs", but at this point in time, I wouldn't bet on it.  (BTW, I'm not a bettor.)
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Question...Is Bailey's injury of the season ended variety? Secondly, with the number of arms we have on the roster does his loss really hurt us to the extent that we're now a second divivsion team. Lastly if Melancon or Acevers can't hold down the spot couldn't we simply just take the prospects that you've highlighted above and go out and get another arm of which their are many candidates...

    2013 Free Agent Relief Pitchers....
    David Aardsma
    Jeremy Accardo
    Mike Adams
    Grant Balfour *
    Matt Belisle
    Rafael Betancourt *
    Taylor Buchholz
    Sean Burnett *
    D.J. Carrasco
    Randy Choate
    Jose Contreras *
    Pedro Feliciano *
    Brian Fuentes *
    Sean Green
    Kevin Gregg *
    J.P. Howell
    Hong-Chih Kuo
    Casey Janssen
    Bobby Jenks
    Brandon League
    Matt Lindstrom *
    Mark Lowe
    Brandon Lyon
    Shawn Marshall
    Dustin McGowan
    Peter Moylan
    Pat Neshek
    Will Ohman
    Juan Carlos Oviedo (aka Leo Nunez)

    Tony Pena
    Joel Peralta
    J.J. Putz *
    Ramon Ramirez
    Mariano Rivera
    Joakim Soria *
    Huston Street *
    Hisanori Takahashi
    Robinson Tejeda
    Carlos Villanueva
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    In Response to Re: Is it either or time?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is it either or time? : Your comments demonstrate only that you know nothing about the inner lives of professional pitchers, especially those at the ML level.  Do you really think they quake in their boots at the mere thought of facing power hitters? These pitchers didn't get to the majors without being competitive. Most of them have a lot of pride -- if not arrogance.  This attitude forms early in pitchers who are successful at any level beyond high school  -- in college, in the minors, certainly in the majors. It goes with the position, which, arguably is the most pressure filled in team sports. If you don't think you can get anybody out, check the Ford dealership to see if they need a salesman -- or a janitor.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    I played competitive sports my entire life and always played to win. Today at 50 something, I still play to win the game! Whether it's scrabble or horse in the back yard with my 14 year old. I find it funny when some among us question a professional athletes desire to win and even more so when they question their courage. Though I might question Beckett's work ethic, trust me there's no stage to big for him and no lineup that he quakes in boot's, when his name is listed as the probable starter...In fact it's quite the opposite with him, I'd say he tends to be over confident and get in trouble when he tries to throw it by guys and loses command...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    The Bailey for Reddick trade is looking more and more foolish. We did get Sweeney in the deal though but if you thought about it, now it's a Reddick for Sweeney, at least until the AS break, and even then we won't know if Bailey can pitch.

    And, of course Ben decides to make Bard a starter which, IMO, will ruin him. He should be making that transition slowly, as in spot starting instead of being thrust right into the rotation.
    Then, sending Lavarnway down along with now Ciriaco, is also a bone-head move.
    All indications are that Ben doesn't have a clue on how to win a championship.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    Nobody's suggesting Beckett's "quaking in his boots". I'm simply suggesting that he was medically cleared by 2 separate docs....and is going to a 3rd now. One get's the distinct impression that he'd rather miss his 1st start, and considering the potency of Detroits line-up, I think concern for his stats could be the reason why. If a starting pitcher could remove his 5 worst performances of the year, it can drastically improve his stats for the year. I'm pointing out that Detroit's offense is likely one some pitchers would love to avoid. We shall see, but my guess is he misses his 1st start.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    Aaah I could almost agree with that Teakus. This is a pitcher that when his team needed him missed two starts with a tummy flue.... I won't say he is doing this intentionally but I won't argue against you either.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Is it either or time?

    Moon, 

       It's a long season.  Let's wait and see what our needxs really end up being.  I know what appears to be the needs, but let's give it a little time to flesh out and see what they actually are.

    I thought about not posting this thread while in a down state of mind. I feel better today and am trying to stay optimistic.

    I will thouroughly enjoy watching this year's team. There is a lot to be excited about and a lot of subplots and situations to stayed closely tuned to. I can't believe we are one day away! Although it's been over 80 and 90 degrees for weeks down here in Sugar Land, it's not spring until they yell, "Play ball!".
     
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