Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    not so great that the other guys are acting like 3,4,& 5's
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    You can certainly make the case that Doubront and Bard have been our most consistent starters.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    It is great that the 2 youngsters seem to give us a much more firm back end ... Felix is the Duke, Daniel is writing new acts each time out.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    I'll wait until they each have had about 10 starts to come to any conclusion. What is possible is that both Bard and Doubront along with Lester, Beckett and Buccholz could give us 5 quality guys that will keep us in games and if that is the case...we will be in the mix all year...

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from isurfvb24. Show isurfvb24's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    after 19 games, yes, i would say the 4&5 starters are pitching way better than the 1-3 starters. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    Today and tomorrow are big games for Lester and Beckett. The Sox have won five straight on the road after a catastrophe at home. The dugout is alive. The Sox are looking more like a team than almost any time last season, even when they were winning. ( Youk called it a "bad vibe." ) The two young starters show great promise. A seven-game win streak at this juncture, all on the road, would be a great tonic for this club. 
    Lester and Beckett are well aware of all of this. Let's see them put it into their games. Ir's way too early to call this road trip a pivot point in the season, but for myriad reasons it's an important point.  
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    They are pitching rather well. Bard looks better than Buchholz.
    It may also have to do with the league not being familiar with them as they are with Beckett and Lester. Nonetheless, they still look real sharp and we need strong outings from them.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    They are definitely out pitching the three vets, but they can each probably go just 150 innings this year. The three vets seem to be stuck in September 2011. Right now Bobby V and Ben C are looking pretty smart.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    In response to "Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?": [QUOTE]They are definitely out pitching the three vets, but they can each probably go just 150 innings this year. The three vets seem to be stuck in September 2011. Right now Bobby V and Ben C are looking pretty smart. Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE] After getting shelled in Detroit in his first start, Beckett has had 3 consecutive good "quality" starts. How is he "stuck in September?"
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    In Response to Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?:
    [QUOTE]Doubront and Bard are developing into top of the rotation starters. Great news for the Sox. Go Sox!
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]Yes, and perhaps Lester too !!!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    They are certainly better so far this year. What is the point of numbering your starters 1 - 5 anyway ? What does that accomplish? You should expect quality performance from all of your starters. Every game has equal importance.
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    Lou Merloni was talking about Lester this morning, & echoed my exact feelings about him.

    The last several years, Lester falls apart over the slightest set back in a game.  Not getting close calls.  A walk.  a base hit.  Giving up a dinger.  No matter what the case, he is seemingly incapable of containing damage.  He talked about how when Lester is on, he has the goods to be one of the best in the game.  An elite pitcher!  I completely agree!!!  He has the goods to be one of the best. 

    THE BIG QUESTION, WHICH LOU & THE OTHERS DID NOT ADDRESS, IS WHY HAS HIS MENTAL GAME GONE TO SH I T?  Why does he consistently lose his temper & FALL APART???

    THE SECOND BIG QUESTION, IS WHY HAS THE ENTIRE PITCHING STAFF LOST THEIR ABILITY TO LIMIT DAMAGE?  WHY DO THEY ALL SEEM TO LACK MENTAL TOUGHNESS???  IT THIS SYSTEMIC????

    THE ANSWER!

    Yes!  It's systemic!  WHY???  The answer to me is very obvious.  It's all about Beckett & Lackey!  Two EXTREMELY NEGATIVE VETERANS!  Our young guns have only had these two to "look up to,"  and it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that their negativity has rubbed off on the entire pitching core!!! Not to mention, THE ENTIRE TEAM!  OK....  Schilling can really be obnoxious, but he absolutely was somebody a young impressionable pitcher could model their game after.  Mentally tough!  Serious!  Positive!  Mature!  Informed!  Thoughtful! 

    This team desperately needs a mature veteran pitcher!  A guy these young guns can look up to!  A guy with an unquestionably tough mental game, & a positive clubhouse maturity!!!

    I just hope & pray that Beckett & Lackey have not already ruined the careers of our two best young pitchers!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    I know Beckett is everyone's favorite whipping boy, but since the first start, Beckett has pitched as well as anyone, if not better. He's 2-1 with a 2.57 ERA, averaging 7.0 innings per start.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    In Response to Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?:
    [QUOTE]I know Beckett is everyone's favorite whipping boy, but since the first start, Beckett has pitched as well as anyone, if not better. He's 2-1 with a 2.57 ERA, averaging 7.0 innings per start.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]
    Right, and looked good doing it. People who are still on his case must not be paying attention.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    Yeah like his era last year in July, you know July when he missed 3 key starts because of injuries like "tummy flue"........ the team really missed those 5 inning starts.... well not the bullpen anyhow as they were relieved. For those paying attention.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    In Response to Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?:
    [QUOTE]I know Beckett is everyone's favorite whipping boy, but since the first start, Beckett has pitched as well as anyone, if not better. He's 2-1 with a 2.57 ERA, averaging 7.0 innings per start.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    It's not about how he looks on the mound!  When he's out there, I'm one of his biggest fans.  I love to see him actually pitch.  I love it when he's on!  I'm rooting for him to get it back when he starts to unravel.  It's not about his game on the mound.  Between the lines.......

    We all know this team, including the starting pitchers, have the goods to excel in MLB!  The question, before the last 5 games, is WHY ARE THEY ALL UNDERPERFORMING???  WHY?  One of my biggest questions has been, WHY does Lester seem to lose it on the mound?  Why does he seem to lose his composure so often?  Why does a guy with his talent so consistently lose his temper, and completely fall apart on the mound???

    I'm not questioning whether or not Beckett has the goods to succeed.  We all know he does.  I was talking Cy Young contender for the bulk of last season, pre September!  He's looking good his last few starts!  I LOVE IT!

    THE PROBLEM.......  We know this team has an "attitude problem!"  We all know it!  The question on the table has been, what is the root of this clubhouse / attitude problem?

    I've been singing this song since the day Lackey came to camp 2 springs ago.  The Red Sox paraded Lackey, Beckett, & Lester around, calling them the 3 horsemen.  I've hated Lackey way before he came to Boston.  Since the day he came here, this TEAM has been is serious trouble!  Beckett's attitude has gone completely south, & his game has suffered when it counts.  LACKEY has always sucked, and his attitude has been A MAJOR LEAGUE VIRAL PROBLEM!!!!  Beckett & Lackey together are a CLUBHOUSE KILLER!!!!!!!!  Lester's attitude has manifestly s h i t the bed, & I blame the "Texas Tough Guy" for it.  Thank God Lackey is gone, & I pray he NEVER touches a Red Sox uniform again.  Beckett, & his dog sh i t attitude has poisoned Lester! Lester has admitted looking up to Beckett, & it shows!  To Lester's credit, he has admitted falling off the rails with his fellow "HORSEMEN."

    It actually pains me to think about dealing Beckett, but it may be the key to getting this TEAM BACK!  I hate the thought of getting rid of a few more guys, i.e. Youk, but we very well may have to do it. 

    So........  Let's not try to muddy the water with, "these critics just aren't watching the games.  How could anybody WATCHING the games continue to bash Beckett????"    It has nothing to do with how they are actually doing between the lines, at any particular time period!!!!  We all know he's been looking a lot better lately!  We all know Beckett is more than capable of pitching a very good game!  It's about the attitude, & HOW THAT ATTITUDE EFFECTS HIS FELLOW PITCHERS & THE REST OF THE TEAM!

    Sure!  We've got it rolling against s h i t teams in the AL central, but what happens when this team hits another skid???  Is Beckett gonna be the guy picking up & carrying his young teammates, or will he be the guy who is want to b i t ch about everything behind the scenes?? 

    Do you think he is a guy who can pick his fellow pitchers, & teammates up????
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    In Response to Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz? : Right, and looked good doing it. People who are still on his case must not be paying attention.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Love both of you, but it's not about his game!
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    Why did the OP give Jon Lester a pass? Beckett has become such a whipping boy but if we look hard at things:

    Who was worse last September? Lester.

    Who has a 1.50 WHIP right now versus a 1.17 WHIP? Lester.

    Now I am not big on bagging on either guy mind you but I think Lester was an active participant in the chicken and beer club last year, was a bigger problem in the stretch last year and while I am sure he will turn it around he is currently struggling more than Beckett.

    I have never quite gotten the vitrol towards Beckett on the board, which has gone on for a few years. The guy nevers makes excuses, when he sux, he says he sux (even if it is that he is playing hurt).

    He has been the opposite of John Lackey in this regard (though in hindsight anyone who wants to admit it can see that Lackey pitched hurt for two years here and made every excuse in the world except ever saying he was hurt.)

    On the flip side of the OP, it is a happy situation that Douby seems to fulfilling the promise the RS saw in him so far this year and that Bard is making the adjustments to be a starter. It appears that the RS may well have made a good call with Bard (I'd love to eat crow on this one).

    Hopefully Buch gets a little better every start and the RS in that case could well have enough in their starting 5 to contend over the long season. Whether it is a post season rotation is yet to be seen. And the bullpen is as shaky as any this side of Anaheim.

    But coming to too many conclusions based on April sample sets is seldom a great idea.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    What might be happening is that the rotation is starting to live up to its promise. Lester was great his first two starts, so maybe the last two were blip and he regains his form. Beckett, Bard and Doubront have been very good for a number of starts now. So if Buchholz's troubles are nothing more than a slow start after coming back from injury and he pitches at least like last year (3.48 ERA) before getting hurt, who knows, maybe the starting rotation will be one of the best.

    That would be such an irony. the first two weeks, everyone was calling the pitching, starters and relievers, yet over time the starters might actually become a huge strength.

    Not there yet but there are a lot of good signs.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    In Response to Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?:
    [QUOTE]Why did the OP give Jon Lester a pass? Beckett has become such a whipping boy but if we look hard at things: Who was worse last September? Lester. Who has a 1.50 WHIP right now versus a 1.17 WHIP? Lester. Now I am not big on bagging on either guy mind you but I think Lester was an active participant in the chicken and beer club last year, was a bigger problem in the stretch last year and while I am sure he will turn it around he is currently struggling more than Beckett. I have never quite gotten the vitrol towards Beckett on the board, which has gone on for a few years. The guy nevers makes excuses, when he sux, he says he sux (even if it is that he is playing hurt). He has been the opposite of John Lackey in this regard (though in hindsight anyone who wants to admit it can see that Lackey pitched hurt for two years here and made every excuse in the world except ever saying he was hurt.) On the flip side of the OP, it is a happy situation that Douby seems to fulfilling the promise the RS saw in him so far this year and that Bard is making the adjustments to be a starter. It appears that the RS may well have made a good call with Bard (I'd love to eat crow on this one). Hopefully Buch gets a little better every start and the RS in that case could well have enough in their starting 5 to contend over the long season. Whether it is a post season rotation is yet to be seen. And the bullpen is as shaky as any this side of Anaheim. But coming to too many conclusions based on April sample sets is seldom a great idea.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]
    He was NOT playing hurt last September. He said he wasn't. No one in the organization said he was. Do you know better?

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?

    In Response to Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is it possible that our 4th and 5th starters are better than Beckett and Buchholz? : He was NOT playing hurt last September. He said he wasn't. No one in the organization said he was. Do you know better?
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]He always says he isn't, yet we find out that thumb has been bothering him for two years. All I know is he hurt himself in Toronto, missed two starts and then pitched badly. Like I said, Beckett always just steps up and says he sux when he sux and that he has to do better. This isn't the first time we have had this disagreement and it won't be the last. 

    Lackey swore he was OK all last year and need TJ at the end of the year.

    IMHO 90% of the time when pitchers are under performing their statisical norms they physically aren't right. They don't lose pitches like someone would misplace keys.
     

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