is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

  1. This post has been removed.

     
  2. This post has been removed.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    No, it's too late because he's too old to ask for a raise. Don't get all wound up about this old man, after two games. Let's see how those old legs do in the 2nd half and the next 26 million dollars on his overpriced contract.



    32 is old?

     
  4. This post has been removed.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    andy pettite is old.....mariano rivera is old..... ShaVic? not old

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    No, it's too late because he's too old to ask for a raise. Don't get all wound up about this old man, after two games. Let's see how those old legs do in the 2nd half and the next 26 million dollars on his overpriced contract.

     



    32 is old?

     





    I think it all depends on the player.  Sometimes the only difference between a HOF player and a guy who has just a good career is how they hold up.

    Anyone remember the "who's better" debate of the 90's; Nomar, Jeter, or AROD?  I used to always talk about how much better Nomar was then those guys, and while it might not have been so clear cut you could make the argument that he could.  What happened is Nomar while staying productive slowed down and had a hard time staying healthy around 30 meanwhile Jeter kept on chugging along for the next 30 years.

    I look at a guy like Victorino, and while he's no Jeter he has had some pretty darn good years.  Now he could have just had a bad year last year, and may bounce back and be great for another 3-5,6 years who knows....or last year could have been the beginning of the decline for him.  Reality is there is just no way of knowing, only time will tell.

    Personally I feel if he still has some juice left in him the 3/39 contract is going to make Ben C. look brilliant, and if Victorino continues to slid it will make him look horrible.  

    I remain optimistic for Shane, however I'm a realist and am aware that he could be of little value to us out there this year.

    So far so good.....let's hope he keeps it up. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to BostonProSportsLover's comment:

    first, like many here thought it was a real reach to pay him 13m for 3 years. but i absolutely love watching this multi-tool gritty guy. a true dirt dog. playing great in right, he's a battler at the plate and on the bases, and  lasering everything incl taking out kuroda. u never know what will happen over the course of the season but this guy is a culture changer, means more to us than just his performance on it. fact that we get both is just amazing. got a steal last night, hitting at .364. most of all he's helped to stabilize the bottom of the order. he is what he is. with him, jbj and iggy, we may have the best the bottom orders in baseball. that was the key to the glory years. he's like bill mueller with more potential pop. yep u want your rightfielder ideally to hit higher but we have other guys to do that. this team for now has no dead weight. a potential murderous row from 1-9!



    Its too late for Victorino to ask for a raise, seeing as though he signed a contract.

     
  8. This post has been removed.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    No, it's too late because he's too old to ask for a raise. Don't get all wound up about this old man, after two games. Let's see how those old legs do in the 2nd half and the next 26 million dollars on his overpriced contract.

     



    32 is old?

     

     





     

    I think it all depends on the player.  Sometimes the only difference between a HOF player and a guy who has just a good career is how they hold up.

    Anyone remember the "who's better" debate of the 90's; Nomar, Jeter, or AROD?  I used to always talk about how much better Nomar was then those guys, and while it might not have been so clear cut you could make the argument that he could.  What happened is Nomar while staying productive slowed down and had a hard time staying healthy around 30 meanwhile Jeter kept on chugging along for the next 30 years.

    I look at a guy like Victorino, and while he's no Jeter he has had some pretty darn good years.  Now he could have just had a bad year last year, and may bounce back and be great for another 3-5,6 years who knows....or last year could have been the beginning of the decline for him.  Reality is there is just no way of knowing, only time will tell.

    Personally I feel if he still has some juice left in him the 3/39 contract is going to make Ben C. look brilliant, and if Victorino continues to slid it will make him look horrible.  

    I remain optimistic for Shane, however I'm a realist and am aware that he could be of little value to us out there this year.

    So far so good.....let's hope he keeps it up. 

     




    Nomar was on roids which broke his body down.(just my opinion)

     

    As far as Vic. I liked the signing but not the price tag. But so far hes showed his worth. I dont see a guy like Vic breaking down before 35, so Im really not worried. Vic had almost 40 sb last year so thats a good sign hes still in fine shape. He had a down year in 2012 and had an AS year in 2011. If someone doesnt like the price, that fine. Thats on the Sox. No one here should hate on a solid ballplayer and clubhouse presence because of that.

     
  10. This post has been removed.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    No, it's too late because he's too old to ask for a raise. Don't get all wound up about this old man, after two games. Let's see how those old legs do in the 2nd half and the next 26 million dollars on his overpriced contract.

     



    32 is old?

     

     





     

    I think it all depends on the player.  Sometimes the only difference between a HOF player and a guy who has just a good career is how they hold up.

    Anyone remember the "who's better" debate of the 90's; Nomar, Jeter, or AROD?  I used to always talk about how much better Nomar was then those guys, and while it might not have been so clear cut you could make the argument that he could.  What happened is Nomar while staying productive slowed down and had a hard time staying healthy around 30 meanwhile Jeter kept on chugging along for the next 30 years.

    I look at a guy like Victorino, and while he's no Jeter he has had some pretty darn good years.  Now he could have just had a bad year last year, and may bounce back and be great for another 3-5,6 years who knows....or last year could have been the beginning of the decline for him.  Reality is there is just no way of knowing, only time will tell.

    Personally I feel if he still has some juice left in him the 3/39 contract is going to make Ben C. look brilliant, and if Victorino continues to slid it will make him look horrible.  

    I remain optimistic for Shane, however I'm a realist and am aware that he could be of little value to us out there this year.

    So far so good.....let's hope he keeps it up. 

     




    Nomar was on roids which broke his body down.(just my opinion)

     

    As far as Vic. I liked the signing but not the price tag. But so far hes showed his worth. I dont see a guy like Vic breaking down before 35, so Im really not worried. Vic had almost 40 sb last year so thats a good sign hes still in fine shape. He had a down year in 2012 and had an AS year in 2011. If someone doesnt like the price, that fine. Thats on the Sox. No one here should hate on a solid ballplayer and clubhouse presence because of that.



    I know Nomar was on Roids, that was just an example.  The idea being a player can slow down at any age around 30 on.....some stay productive till they are 40.  I mean if Pujols stays productive he will be a hands down HOF, or he can fall apart in a year or two and be the next AROD (worse) we just can't tell.  I think I'm learning towards Victorino being a very productive player who will give us good service time....but only time will tell. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from xXR3S1NXx. Show xXR3S1NXx's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    I wouldn't have stated "Shane in RF" if I "hated on" this overpriced old man. The value mistake was made, but, with Bradley, it does give the Red Sox a strong defensive and punch and judy OF for this season. Nothing can be done about the wasted opportunity to get J. Upton or long term young slugging corner OF'er instead of spending 39 million for a player in decline.

    This season, if they keep the current OF, they will at least get good defense in the OF to help the pitching staff. The 23 million is already spent, and I do not see the point in putting Shane or Ellsbury on the trade market as their trade market will be way too low.

    In 2014, Bradley should be in CF, Shane should platoon with Gomes and the Red Sox need to promote the best young corner OF'er option they have.

    Ellsbury trade currrency sell high chance is gone, and the best move now is to take the draft compensation and move on to the future, which isn't Ellsbury at 15M plus year for his thirties.



    Softy still with a stiffy for the upton brothers. LOL

     
  13. This post has been removed.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    What is this "Upton brothers" nosnesne. I said to avoid BJ Upton, like the plague.

    Update on J. Upton: Homered in Game 1 win

                                  Homered in Game 2 win

    Bradley Cf years to come

    J. Upton LF years to come

    R Johnson 2013/Nava (2014 Brentz or Bogaerts or best farm corner OF prospect)

     

    Total cost 18M




    The Sox can still go after Upton in 2015 when he will be a FA and in the prime of his career. You still have hope.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    I wouldn't have stated "Shane in RF" if I "hated on" this overpriced old man. The value mistake was made, but, with Bradley, it does give the Red Sox a strong defensive and punch and judy OF for this season. Nothing can be done about the wasted opportunity to get J. Upton or long term young slugging corner OF'er instead of spending 39 million for a player in decline.

    This season, if they keep the current OF, they will at least get good defense in the OF to help the pitching staff. The 23 million is already spent, and I do not see the point in putting Shane or Ellsbury on the trade market as their trade market will be way too low.

    In 2014, Bradley should be in CF, Shane should platoon with Gomes and the Red Sox need to promote the best young corner OF'er option they have.

    Ellsbury trade currrency sell high chance is gone, and the best move now is to take the draft compensation and move on to the future, which isn't Ellsbury at 15M plus year for his thirties.



    This is fair.  I dont have anything against Shane Victorino...He seems like a true / old school ballplayer.  Good defensively, good baserunning instincts, hard worker....My issue is that it appears that we paid full price for a player who should have been available at a buy-low price.  I dont mind, at all, the Red Sox targeting players who are bounce back candidates (J.Upton is a bounce back candidate as well); however, you dont pay full price.  Otherwise, you are not buying low!  

    It seems to me like Atlanta was able to get Justin Upton at a buy low price; however, we paid full price for Shane.  But its a sunk cost now, so Im going to root for Shane.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    What is this "Upton brothers" nosnesne. I said to avoid BJ Upton, like the plague.

    Update on J. Upton: Homered in Game 1 win

                                  Homered in Game 2 win

    Bradley Cf years to come

    J. Upton LF years to come

    R Johnson 2013/Nava (2014 Brentz or Bogaerts or best farm corner OF prospect)

     

    Total cost 18M

     




    The Sox can still go after Upton in 2015 when he will be a FA and in the prime of his career. You still have hope.

     



    I like this post (assuming that you are serious and not being sarcastic).  The Red Sox have a market that is similar to NY and therefore should be willing to outspend teams when the player warrants the investment.

    That is the beauty of having guys like Jackie Bradley and Inglesias....Its not so Henry can count his beans.    Its so we can allocate those dollars to fill other needs.  If Upton is a free agent in 2015, and has multiple .300/30 HR seasons under his belt, and we have an opening at the position....We should absolutely flex our ability to spend and win the bidding war.

    Some players warrant it.  

    However, this doesnt change the fact that its rare for a 23 year old player w/ 30 HR pop to become available.  And its especially rare for a 23 yr old player w/ 30 HR pop to be available for a package that includes one solid (but very replacable) player (Prado) and a couple of mid-level farm hands.

    Opportunity was blown.  If nothing else, we should have drove up the price.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from taz1956. Show taz1956's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    I wouldn't have stated "Shane in RF" if I "hated on" this overpriced old man. The value mistake was made, but, with Bradley, it does give the Red Sox a strong defensive and punch and judy OF for this season. Nothing can be done about the wasted opportunity to get J. Upton or long term young slugging corner OF'er instead of spending 39 million for a player in decline.

    This season, if they keep the current OF, they will at least get good defense in the OF to help the pitching staff. The 23 million is already spent, and I do not see the point in putting Shane or Ellsbury on the trade market as their trade market will be way too low.

    In 2014, Bradley should be in CF, Shane should platoon with Gomes and the Red Sox need to promote the best young corner OF'er option they have.

    Ellsbury trade currrency sell high chance is gone, and the best move now is to take the draft compensation and move on to the future, which isn't Ellsbury at 15M plus year for his thirties.

     



    This is fair.  I dont have anything against Shane Victorino...He seems like a true / old school ballplayer.  Good defensively, good baserunning instincts, hard worker....My issue is that it appears that we paid full price for a player who shouldhave been available at a buy-low price.  I dont mind, at all, the Red Sox targeting players who are bounce back candidates (J.Upton is a bounce back candidate as well); however, you dont pay full price.  Otherwise, you are not buying low!  

     

    It seems to me like Atlanta was able to get Justin Upton at a buy low price; however, we paid full price for Shane.  But its a sunk cost now, so Im going to root for Shane.


    Shane had a better offer from another team but chose the Red Sox. If he was lowballed like many here wanted chances are he goes elsewhere. This guy is a gamer and has tools to be one of the best right fielders in the game. Watch him play for a couple of months before passing judgement.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    What is this "Upton brothers" nosnesne. I said to avoid BJ Upton, like the plague.

    Update on J. Upton: Homered in Game 1 win

                                  Homered in Game 2 win

    Bradley Cf years to come

    J. Upton LF years to come

    R Johnson 2013/Nava (2014 Brentz or Bogaerts or best farm corner OF prospect)

     

    Total cost 18M

     




    The Sox can still go after Upton in 2015 when he will be a FA and in the prime of his career. You still have hope.

     

     



    I like this post (assuming that you are serious and not being sarcastic).  The Red Sox have a market that is similar to NY and therefore should be willing to outspend teams when the player warrants the investment.

     

    That is the beauty of having guys like Jackie Bradley and Inglesias....Its not so Henry can count his beans.    Its so we can allocate those dollars to fill other needs.  If Upton is a free agent in 2015, and has multiple .300/30 HR seasons under his belt, and we have an opening at the position....We should absolutely flex our ability to spend and win the bidding war.

    Some players warrant it.  

    However, this doesnt change the fact that its rare for a 23 year old player w/ 30 HR pop to become available.  And its especially rare for a 23 yr old player w/ 30 HR pop to be available for a package that includes one solid (but very replacable) player (Prado) and a couple of mid-level farm hands.

    Opportunity was blown.  If nothing else, we should have drove up the price.  



    Justin Upton said he wouldn't waive his "no trade" to come to Boston...How could they "blow" an opportunity that was never there?  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    What is this "Upton brothers" nosnesne. I said to avoid BJ Upton, like the plague.

    Update on J. Upton: Homered in Game 1 win

                                  Homered in Game 2 win

    Bradley Cf years to come

    J. Upton LF years to come

    R Johnson 2013/Nava (2014 Brentz or Bogaerts or best farm corner OF prospect)

     

    Total cost 18M

     




    The Sox can still go after Upton in 2015 when he will be a FA and in the prime of his career. You still have hope.

     

     



    I like this post (assuming that you are serious and not being sarcastic).  The Red Sox have a market that is similar to NY and therefore should be willing to outspend teams when the player warrants the investment.

     

    That is the beauty of having guys like Jackie Bradley and Inglesias....Its not so Henry can count his beans.    Its so we can allocate those dollars to fill other needs.  If Upton is a free agent in 2015, and has multiple .300/30 HR seasons under his belt, and we have an opening at the position....We should absolutely flex our ability to spend and win the bidding war.

    Some players warrant it.  

    However, this doesnt change the fact that its rare for a 23 year old player w/ 30 HR pop to become available.  And its especially rare for a 23 yr old player w/ 30 HR pop to be available for a package that includes one solid (but very replacable) player (Prado) and a couple of mid-level farm hands.

    Opportunity was blown.  If nothing else, we should have drove up the price.  




    I am serious. I would like to see if he can stay consistent over the next 3 years. if he does, I would pay a premium for his services in a 4-6 year deal. If they could get him for that many years.

     
  20. This post has been removed.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

     

    Victorino looks like,...............

     

     

     

     

    ................The Rock   LOL

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    The complainers are so tiresome I can barely respond anymore.  Did the Sox overpay for Victorino?  I couldn't possibly know, but based on newspaper reports, etc., it appears they did.  Perhaps it was a blunder.....perhaps the Sox valued certain things more than other teams so jumped to secure what they wanted....perhaps they had budget to spend so were a bit profligate.  But re Victorino's delivery in recent years?  He's been a stud.

    None of us are 100% confident of WAR/value calculations, but I think they are a useful tool.  They are a zero-net game so it's not as if every player's value is inflated (or deflated)...it's only a marginal argument about whether Fangraphs, B-R or both over- or under-value a certain skill.  So let's look at Victorino's Fangraphs recent value:

    • 2008:  $19.6m
    • 2009:  $15.2m
    • 2010:  $13.0m
    • 2011:  $25.4m
    • 2012:  $13.2m

    The guy has always been a big time fielder and baserunner, and has had some great batting seasons for a CF (not every CF is Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle).  There is every chance he'll earn/out-earn his salary for the next 3 years.....that doesn't mean it was ok to overpay, but we'll get value+ for our money.

    "Four hits good, two outs bad...baaa baaa baaa".

     

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    Other 2012 Fangraphs values, as benchmarks:

    • Jonny Gomes:  $8.9m
    • Dustin Pedroia:  $19.3m
    • Mike Trout:  $44.8m
    • Daniel Bard:  $-1.9m
    • Jarrod Saltalamacchia:  $8.3m

    Modern world-phobes b1tch and moan about every thing from penicillin, polio vaccine, TJ surgery, AIDS drugs and WAR...."why can't our learned political leaders have slaves and still be considered titans of freedom?  Why?"

    They are fueled on dogma the way a wayward teenager is on Angel Dust.  They are unable to separate the Absolute from the Relative.  And their Patron Stump is St. Bill of the Stillborn Brain.

     

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Tomhab. Show Tomhab's posts

    Re: is it too early for VICTORINO to ask for a raise?

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

     

    Victorino looks like,...............

     

     

     

     

    ................The Rock   LOL

     



    It's a Hawaii thing

     
  25. This post has been removed.

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share