IS JETER NOW IN THE TOP 10 OF THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

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    IS JETER NOW IN THE TOP 10 OF THE 3000 HIT CLUB?


    I've been down on jete but think he's in the top 12 of the 28 guys with 3000 hits with the opportunity to land firmly in the top 5 when his career is done in the next few years. in no particular order, will put him ahead of: paul molitor, craig biggio, eddie murray, yaz (please dont shoot the messenger), cap anson (whoever he was), eddie collins, nap lajoie, lou brock,  george brett, paul waner, robin yount, dave winfield, palmeiro (juice or not), boggs, kaline and clemente (gone too soon). kinda surprised me he would be that high. but jete is and has the chance to go even higher by the time he calls it a career. in time, he should be higher than gwynn (no rings, low visibility city), ripken (how many rings?), honus wagner, tris speaker, rickey henderson (quit on many eams , too streaky, not enough rings), and stan musial. i dont see him ever eclipsing mays, aaron, pete rose (strictly on the field), or ty cobb (again, just on the field)... 
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    This was done yesterday, and while I'm a big Jeter fan, saying Jeter is better than some of these guys is absolutely ridiculous. For starters, if you don't know who Cap Anson is, you shouldn't conclude Jeter is better. (He isn't)

    Speaker, Musial, Collins, Lajoie, Brett, Clemente are not as good? OMG! Do you realize that  Musial is considered among the top 10 in history? And those others (less Brett) are in the top 20-30?

    Here's guessing you don't know much about them either. And, FWIW, I'd rather have all those guys than Rose, and I'm only talking on the field.

    You should know what you're talking about before you start a thread like this.
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    I heard Colin Cowherd talking about this subject yesterday morning. While I agreed with his overall point -- that Jeter is an all-time great who gets taken for granted because he doesn't create drama -- I nearly wrecked my car when he said he was better than Musial and Clemente.
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    They did this on NESN on 10.0 ... I was pissed when Ryan said Jeter was better than Yaz ... but after thinking it over, he is right.   And that says a lot about Jeter really.   Yaz hit when the pitchers ruled.   But Jeter is still the better player.  
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    This was done yesterday, and while I'm a big Jeter fan, saying Jeter is better than some of these guys is absolutely ridiculous. For starters, if you don't know who Cap Anson is, you shouldn't conclude Jeter is better. (He isn't) Speaker, Musial, Collins, Lajoie, Brett, Clemente are not as good? OMG! Do you realize that Speaker & Musial are considered among the top 10 in history? And those others (less Brett) are in the top 30? Here's guessing you don't know much about them either. And, FWIW, I'd rather have all those guys than Rose, and I'm only talking on the field. You should know what you're talking about before you start a thread like this.
    Posted by nhsteven
    sorry dude, i automatically put ASTERISKS to all guys playing when blacks, latinos and others were not allowed to even compete. sorry, its just me. so someone playing around 1897 or late 19th century simply doesnt get ahead of anyone doing it in the post-integration period. you have to be simply extraordinary to get in the conversation such as a ty cobb or babe ruth.  even those guys, in time will be phased out just like george mikan in basketball. not their fault but those are the breaks. i do know my stuff. i'm very aware of mr. musial. yes, derek jeter in time will be viewed as a TOP TEN player as well . those rings and playing in NY as the most high profile guy at the most high profile position at the most high profile time for the media as the CAPTAIN will give all the benefit of the doubt over any shortcomings he may have with others. 

    he may eclipse dimaggio and gehrig as well. babe ruth? no. yep, he's top 10 of all-time when he's done! istand corrcted, he may overtake rose in time. so just mays-aaron-ruth are indispensable and beyond his reach when its all said and done. jeter may be a TOP 5 player of all-time!
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    They interviewed the scout who signed him (Dick Groch). When the Yankees asked him in '92 if he thought Jeter was headed for Mich. St., his answer was "No; Cooperstown".
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    Read your history and learn about players from the past before you go ranking today's stars against all-time greats.

    In my estimation, Jeter ranks quite a bit lower than many of the players you say he is "ahead" of.

    I mean really, Stan Musial, Roberto Clemente, Eddie Murray and Tony Gwynn? Did you ever even see these guys play?

    I saw Gwynn and Murray. I've read many books on the history of the game and seen many highlights of Musial and Clemente.

    Jeter is good standing amongst the players of his own era, but when you say he's better than  or "ahead of" Stan "the Man" Musial , I question your knowledge of baseball history.

    And what makes you say Henderson "quit on many teams?" He is not known as the brightest bulb in the box, but I have never heard Rickey called a quitter.
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    Jeter is without a doubt in the bottom third, and in the lower portion of that.

    Consider:
    -He wasn't a great fielding shortstop (given his offense at the position, that's not a big deal, but SS doesn't really boost his case much given his defense)
    -He was never even the best SS in baseball any single year, much less among the best players in baseball any single year
    -On a quality basis, Jeter was never that great...he's more of a "compiler" who stayed healthy and was very consistent. That isn't a knock on him, and it's the reason he's a certain HOFer, but he's a lesser one because of it. Brighter stars who played less get the edge when it comes to greatness
    -His stats are very misleading, as he had about every statistical advantage a player could ask for. He played through the height of the steroid era, which boosted the stats of all hitters, he played on a team with a deep lineup (helping him face a lot more mediocre and/or tired pitching), and he played in a ballpark tailored for his swing

    And for all of you who place him among, for example, the players of the '80s, you have to remember that you judge players based on their peers, not their unadjusted statistics. To suggest that Jeter even matches George Brett, much less beats Brett, is absurd, as Brett was one of the shining stars of the '80s. Don't discount those players just because they played when hitting numbers were suppressed.

    I'd say Jeter beats Craig Biggio, Palmeiro (his stats are a steroid driven fraud) and perhaps Lou Brock, and he MIGHT be roughly on par (but not better than, and maybe worse than) Boggs, Yount, Murray, and Molitor. So at least 20 of the members of the 3000 hit club are clearly better than he was, and the total is probably higher.

    This isn't a knock on Jeter...the fact that a player who was very good, but not great, gets to be in this company at all is credit to his hard work. But he'll be a lesser level HOFer, and to suggest otherwise means you either haven't done your research or that you just blindly support Jeter.

    And if you think Derek Jeter is even close to Carl Yastrezemski, you don't belong in these discussions. Yaz was a top hitter in the league during the top pitching portion of the modern era, and you're going to pretend his numbers should be left as they are? Here's a simple stat that can't be denied: Jeter's career OPS+ (OPS adjusted for league average and ballpark factors) is 117, while Yaz's is 129. That makes Yaz 12% better compared to  Jeter than league average...that's huge! Jeter's best year was 153, followed by 132. Yaz had totals of 193, 177, 170, 156, 148, 140, 139, and 135. Four season's than Jeter's best, and eight that were better than Jeter's second best. And while Yaz didn't play SS (remember, though, that Jeter was never better than average at the position), he was an elite, seven-time Gold Glove OFer.

    Yaz basically hit like Jeter has throughout his career from age 31 onward (after a shoulder injury had sapped Yaz's power), all the way to age 43...so Jeter as a hitter was no better than aging Yaz. And before Yaz was hurt, for a six year period, he was arguably the single best player in baseball. No contest...
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    Jeter is without a doubt in the bottom third, and in the lower portion of that. Consider: -He wasn't a great fielding shortstop (given his offense at the position, that's not a big deal, but SS doesn't really boost his case much given his defense) -He was never even the best SS in baseball any single year, much less among the best players in baseball any single year -On a quality basis, Jeter was never that great...he's more of a "compiler" who stayed healthy and was very consistent. That isn't a knock on him, and it's the reason he's a certain HOFer, but he's a lesser one because of it. Brighter stars who played less get the edge when it comes to greatness -His stats are very misleading, as he had about every statistical advantage a player could ask for. He played through the height of the steroid era, which boosted the stats of all hitters, he played on a team with a deep lineup (helping him face a lot more mediocre and/or tired pitching), and he played in a ballpark tailored for his swing And for all of you who place him among, for example, the players of the '80s, you have to remember that you judge players based on their peers, not their unadjusted statistics. To suggest that Jeter even matches George Brett, much less beats Brett, is absurd, as Brett was one of the shining stars of the '80s. Don't discount those players just because they played when hitting numbers were suppressed. I'd say Jeter beats Craig Biggio, Palmeiro (his stats are a steroid driven fraud) and perhaps Lou Brock, and he MIGHT be roughly on par (but not better than, and maybe worse than) Boggs, Yount, Murray, and Molitor. So at least 20 of the members of the 3000 hit club are clearly better than he was, and the total is probably higher. This isn't a knock on Jeter...the fact that a player who was very good, but not great, gets to be in this company at all is credit to his hard work. But he'll be a lesser level HOFer, and to suggest otherwise means you either haven't done your research or that you just blindly support Jeter. And if you think Derek Jeter is even close to Carl Yastrezemski, you don't belong in these discussions. Yaz was a top hitter in the league during the top pitching portion of the modern era, and you're going to pretend his numbers should be left as they are? Here's a simple stat that can't be denied: Jeter's career OPS+ (OPS adjusted for league average and ballpark factors) is 117, while Yaz's is 129. That makes Yaz 12% better compared to  Jeter than league average...that's huge! Jeter's best year was 153, followed by 132. Yaz had totals of 193, 177, 170, 156, 148, 140, 139, and 135. Four season's than Jeter's best, and eight that were better than Jeter's second best. And while Yaz didn't play SS (remember, though, that Jeter was never better than average at the position), he was an elite, seven-time Gold Glove OFer. Yaz basically hit like Jeter has throughout his career from age 31 onward (after a shoulder injury had sapped Yaz's power), all the way to age 43...so Jeter as a hitter was no better than aging Yaz. And before Yaz was hurt, for a six year period, he was arguably the single best player in baseball. No contest...
    Posted by redsoxu571
    Sorry 571, but this is one of the few times I disagree. While I was a big Yaz fan, even Bob Ryan (which surprised me) and some RS posters here said Jeter was better than Yaz (who had his own ballpark advantages, and BOTH had to deal with a tough power pull field). While I'm not ready to conclude that, and while I'm aware of Jeter's range limitations defensively, there are things he does on the field that are absolutely fabulous (for example, an overlooked facet; his supreme ability on the relay; remember that play in the '99 PS vs the RS?  Also, let's not forget the flip play vs Oak); and while Yaz won 7 GGs, Jeter won 5, spurious or not, plus he has 5 Rings, largely in part to him and his impressive PS stats, while Yaz has none.

    Also, his seasons in '97 and '09 were off the charts; I would find it surprising  if he wasn't the best SS in those yrs (Perhaps ARod in '97). And, while normalized stats are a helpful metric, they are not the be all and end all; raw stats still do count for something. Finally, while he's not Ruth, Williams, etc, to call him Very Good is mind boggling ridiculous; it can be argued, for example that Ripken (with his .270-ish lifetime BA, in a similar era)  was a compiler who was only very good, but not Jeter, who yes, is a compiler (and Yaz wasn't?), but a great one (who had a .317 BA entering 2010; higher than Mays/.302 & Aaron/.305, although admittedly in a different era); ditto Molitor & Murray. Finally, this needs to be viewed in the context of the SS position; several surveys has him ranked in the top 5, and have him as the #6 or 7 Yankee. 

     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,000_hit_club I've been down on jete but think he's in the top 12 of the 28 guys with 3000 hits with the opportunity to land firmly in the top 5 when his career is done in the next few years. in no particular order, will put him ahead of: paul molitor, craig biggio, eddie murray, yaz (please dont shoot the messenger), cap anson (whoever he was), eddie collins, nap lajoie, lou brock,  george brett, paul waner, robin yount, dave winfield, palmeiro (juice or not), boggs, kaline and clemente (gone too soon). kinda surprised me he would be that high. but jete is and has the chance to go even higher by the time he calls it a career. in time, he should be higher than gwynn (no rings, low visibility city), ripken (how many rings?), honus wagner, tris speaker, rickey henderson (quit on many eams , too streaky, not enough rings), and stan musial. i dont see him ever eclipsing mays, aaron, pete rose (strictly on the field), or ty cobb (again, just on the field)... 
    Posted by COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN



    jeter better than musial? i used to just think you were stupid, now i don't have to think about it anymore.
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    .285 caeer avg. for Yaz, 167 hits a season, 22 HRS, 90 RBI'S .312 career avg. for Jeter 206 hits a season, 16 HRS, 79 RBI'S Just comparing, no arguing. Different positions different spots in Batting order The thing that is amazing to me is Jeter Avgerages 110K'S a season Yaz only averaged 68.
    Posted by bobbysu


    So after everything I said about understanding the need to adjust the numbers of a player for the era they played in, you're going to go and just...ignore it?

    Also, you're comparing their career numbers, even though Yaz played until he was 43? Jeter would have to play SIX more years to match that...don't you think Jeter's career averages will suffer if he plays until age 43?

    And please don't ever bring up hit totals ever again...that's such a useless number in isolation. Here's an example of why: Jeter had seven(!) 200 hit seasons. Ted Williams had...none. Not even when he batted .406. Jeter is light years away from Williams, so...it's safe to conclude that hits per season amount to very little when comparing HOFers.

    P.S. To add to the argument that Jeter was a very good complier, whereas Yaz was an all-time great to age 30 and then very good for the rest of his extremely long career, consider their "black ink" and "grey ink" test totals. Basically, both measure (using a fairly simple formula devised by Bill James) how often a player has led the league in a major category (black ink) and the same thing, but for top 10 finishes in a major category (grey ink). High Black Ink totals mean you were among the best when you were playing, and high Grey Ink totals mean you were very good while you were playing.

    Jeter's Grey Ink total is 133, Yaz's 206, and the average HOFer is a 144. Both were very good for a long period of time.

    Jeter's Black Ink total is 6, Yaz's 55, and the average HOFer a 27. Jeter was far from a shining star, but still quite good...but because of how good pitching was during Yaz's peak, people don't realize how much of a beast he was.
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    What about the PS? I would think that's rather important. Also, I would like to see the grey/blank ink totals for the HOF SS's. The only one off the top of my head that I believe would surpass (probably blow away) Jeter is Wagner. To call him just very good, well, you're entitled to your opinion. As far as the 3000 hit club, I agree he's in the bottom third. Also, you ever think that if Jeter plays until he's 43 (doubtful) he would have close to 4K hits?
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,000_hit_club I've been down on jete but think he's in the top 12 of the 28 guys with 3000 hits with the opportunity to land firmly in the top 5 when his career is done in the next few years. in no particular order, will put him ahead of: paul molitor, craig biggio, eddie murray, yaz (please dont shoot the messenger), cap anson (whoever he was), eddie collins, nap lajoie, lou brock,  george brett, paul waner, robin yount, dave winfield, palmeiro (juice or not), boggs, kaline and clemente (gone too soon). kinda surprised me he would be that high. but jete is and has the chance to go even higher by the time he calls it a career. in time, he should be higher than gwynn (no rings, low visibility city), ripken (how many rings?), honus wagner, tris speaker, rickey henderson (quit on many eams , too streaky, not enough rings), and stan musial. i dont see him ever eclipsing mays, aaron, pete rose (strictly on the field), or ty cobb (again, just on the field)... 
    Posted by COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN


    I would have to give Robin Yount the top slot.  Jeter is one of my favorite players but Yount was my favorite "all round" SS in the AL.
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB? : Sorry 571, but this is one of the few times I disagree. While I was a big Yaz fan, even Bob Ryan (which surprised me) and some RS posters here said Jeter was better than Yaz (who had his own ballpark advantages, and BOTH had to deal with a tough power pull field). While I'm not ready to conclude that, and while I'm aware of Jeter's range limitations defensively, there are things he does on the field that are absolutely fabulous (for example, an overlooked facet; his supreme ability on the relay; remember that play in the '99 PS vs the RS?  Also, let's not forget the flip play vs Oak); and while Yaz won 7 GGs, Jeter won 5, spurious or not, plus he has 5 Rings, largely in part to him and his impressive PS stats, while Yaz has none. Also, his seasons in '97 and '09 were off the charts; I would find it surprising  if he wasn't the best SS in those yrs (Perhaps ARod in '97). And, while normalized stats are a helpful metric, they are not the be all and end all; raw stats still do count for something. Finally, while he's not Ruth, Williams, etc, to call him Very Good is mind boggling ridiculous; it can be argued, for example that Ripken (with his .270-ish lifetime BA, in a similar era)  was a compiler who was only very good, but not Jeter, who yes, is a compiler (and Yaz wasn't?), but a great one (who had a .317 BA entering 2010; higher than Mays/.302 & Aaron/.305, although admittedly in a different era); ditto Molitor & Murray. Finally, this needs to be viewed in the context of the SS position; several surveys has him ranked in the top 5, and have him as the #6 or 7 Yankee. 
    Posted by nhsteven


    I can absolutely respect if you want to disagree on this, but I certainly would like to see a little more hard evidence. I'll address your points:

    -I don't care what Bob Ryan thinks...everyone can be right or wrong. Arguments stand on their own or they don't independent of who makes them

    -Yaz did have a ballpark advantage too, which is why OPS+ is so nice, as it includes that. Also, while both ballparks were tough pull parks for each hitter, Jeter didn't pull for power...few players have ever been more perfectly matched with the ballpark they played in. I have zero doubt that Jeter benefitted more from his ballpark than Yaz did from his

    -The "little things" Jeter does on the field have been and always will be overrated. He even admitted his "flip play" was something the entire team had practiced before, so it's not like it was the result of some above and beyond type of instinct. Until someone can actually make some attempt at measuring what Jeter added through this, it doesn't give him any special credit (and I would bet if it could be quantified that we'd all be surprised that Jeter wasn't even all that special in those areas)

    -At this point, it's beyond silly to even tentatively present that Jeter was anything more than an average fielder. His range was crap, but he helped offset that some with a good arm, lack of mistake, and some good hustle plays. But range is still by far the most important aspect of playing SS...after all, your fielding percentage on every ball you don't get to is always .000

    -Jeter earned, at most, 1 GG. He can thank the NY media for the rest

    -Normalized stats are absolutely not the be all, end all, and in fact I'd be first in line to question the absolute precision of stats like OPS+. But are you honestly prepared to say the error range for OPS+ makes up the huge gap between Jeter and Yaz? I've always felt you can question metrics, but the clearer the result, the more certain you can be in its relative truth

    -Likewise, raw stats taken alone mean absolutely nothing. Everything is relative...the only reason raw stats are ever used for anything is because the average baseball fan has a strong enough understanding of the "adjustments" that need to be made that they know how the numbers properly compare. At least, I used to think so, before people started propping Jeter up to Yaz's level...

    -Ripken had plenty of compiling too...again, I didn't say compiling is BAD (as most people use it), but the issue with Jeter is that he's ONLY a compiler...Ripken was awesome at his peak...of course, since so much of his career came in the '80s, his perception suffers along with the rest of the poor buggers who played then. As I already showed, Yaz played half this career as among the best in the game, then aged and settled into a Jeter level compiler AFTERWARD

    -MOST IMPORTANTLY, this is not meant to insult or criticize Jeter...I'm only stating the facts. For his career, Jeter is without a doubt a HOFer AND one of the best SS's ever...largely because most of the SS hitters at or above Jeter's level had nowhere near the bulk career Jeter had (*cough* Nomar Garciaparra *cough*). But this thread didn't ask about Jeter the HOFer...it asked to place Jeter among the 3000 hit club. The thing about the 3000 hit club is it's full of great, great players, and a few where were very good for a long enough time. Derek Jeter, a man who had every advantage you could ask for as a hitter, who was a hits specialist, is "only" just getting to 3000 hits at age 37, and likely with only a few years left on his career. Many of the other members of the club were not on great team, didn't play in great ballparks, offered other offensive advantages (power being the biggest)...he's a worthy member of the club, and worthy member of The Hall...but Yankee fans, as is always the case, don't want to settle for "HOF SS". They want, they NEED, him to be the best ever, and will do whatever they can to make him such.

    To properly investigate an issue like this, you chose the proper criteria, see how the chips fall, and then analyze...Yankee fans WANT to paint Jeter as the best ever, so they adjust the criteria being analyzed until it "shows" that he is.

    News flash: he isn't. And I don't blame people from hearing so many tainted and biased arguments from the NY media and fans that they've started buying into them...it's only natural. But it doesn't make it right.


    When I heard someone on NY talk radio say that Jeter was possibly better than Yaz, I set out NOT to prove them wrong, but to see if it were true or not. Knowing that they played in completely different eras, I set the criteria first...OPS+ will get me started quite easily. It's a quick and dirty way to compare players from different eras. If Jeter had had a higher career OPS+, that wouldn't be the end of the argument (largely because Yaz's career OPS+ is lower than it should be, given that he played for so long, whereas Jeter's career isn't done yet), but at that point I'd have to be ready to conceed the point. But I was actually surprised to find that Yaz was not only better than Jeter in the stat, but was actually WAAAAAY better...undeniably better. Without having to factor ANYTHING else in, almost all of which would likely prove to Yaz's advantage, it's already clear that Yaz was at least a step above Jeter. Hence my conclusion...not because I set out to prove Yaz was better, but because the criteria clearly says he is.

    If you want to question the criteria chosen, be my guest, but I have a very hard time seeing how that bridge can be gapped. I'll give you one hint though: doing so has NOTHING to do with rings. My god, using team accomplishments to judge individual players...the NY media has won another victory...
     
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    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    What about the PS? I would think that's rather important. Also, I would like to see the grey/blank ink totals for the HOF SS's. The only one off the top of my head that I believe would surpass (probably blow away) Jeter is Wagner. To call him just very good, well, you're entitled to your opinion. As far as the 3000 hit club, I agree he's in the bottom third. Also, you ever think that if Jeter plays until he's 43 (doubtful) he would have close to 4K hits?
    Posted by nhsteven


    One thing that all this analysis of Jeter's career has made clear is that the HOF SSs are fairly unimpressive compared to many of the other positions. Jeter's had one of the best careers for a SS, hands down...again, that wasn't really what this discussion was about, though. And once you expand the field from SS's to all HOFers, it changes things too (it should also be considered that Jeter probably shouldn't have stayed at SS for as long as he has...and most players of Jeter's profile were moved from SS later in their careers, because, well...it helped their teams win even more).

    Here's a little HOF "math" for you...when it comes to judging careers:
    Very good per year + long career = great career
    Great per year + not so long career = great career
    Great per year + long career = awesome career

    Jeter is part of the first group...it doesn't make his career any less great than, say, Sandy Koufax's (whose career was only a fraction as long, but who was also way, way, waaaay better), but it definitely makes his career less great than those players who had awesome seasons AND played for a long time.

    When it comes to making a list of who the "best SS's" were, it also depends on how you define the question. If you're asking which SS's had the best careers, Jeter is right up there...perhaps he'll even be #1 when all is said and done, for overall, total career. If you're asking who was best, though, on a qualitative basis, I think he tumbles far down the list, as his best was exceeded by the bests of many others.

    One really quick example...Jeter's career eats Nomar's career for lunch, and leaves leftovers for the orphans down the street. But if you want to ask who the better SS was...I'd take Nomar over Jeter with confidence. Whether you agree or disagree with me exactly on that, at worst, Nomar through his time with the Red Sox was at least as good as Jeter, so qualitatively they are at least even...but if you're judging their full careers, it's not even up for debate, as Jeter wins by a landslide.

    So, was Jeter one of the best SS's ever? It depends partially on the question itself...but if we're judging Jeter the player, not Jeter the career, he's a lot closer to "very good" than "great".
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB? : I can absolutely respect if you want to disagree on this, but I certainly would like to see a little more hard evidence. I'll address your points: -I don't care what Bob Ryan thinks...everyone can be right or wrong. Arguments stand on their own or they don't independent of who makes them -Yaz did have a ballpark advantage too, which is why OPS+ is so nice, as it includes that. Also, while both ballparks were tough pull parks for each hitter, Jeter didn't pull for power ...few players have ever been more perfectly matched with the ballpark they played in. I have zero doubt that Jeter benefitted more from his ballpark than Yaz did from his -The "little things" Jeter does on the field have been and always will be overrated. He even admitted his "flip play" was something the entire team had practiced before, so it's not like it was the result of some above and beyond type of instinct. Until someone can actually make some attempt at measuring what Jeter added through this, it doesn't give him any special credit (and I would bet if it could be quantified that we'd all be surprised that Jeter wasn't even all that special in those areas) -At this point, it's beyond silly to even tentatively present that Jeter was anything more than an average fielder. His range was crap, but he helped offset that some with a good arm, lack of mistake, and some good hustle plays. But range is still by far the most important aspect of playing SS...after all, your fielding percentage on every ball you don't get to is always .000 -Jeter earned, at most, 1 GG. He can thank the NY media for the rest -Normalized stats are absolutely not the be all, end all, and in fact I'd be first in line to question the absolute precision of stats like OPS+. But are you honestly prepared to say the error range for OPS+ makes up the huge gap between Jeter and Yaz? I've always felt you can question metrics, but the clearer the result, the more certain you can be in its relative truth -Likewise, raw stats taken alone mean absolutely nothing. Everything is relative...the only reason raw stats are ever used for anything is because the average baseball fan has a strong enough understanding of the "adjustments" that need to be made that they know how the numbers properly compare. At least, I used to think so, before people started propping Jeter up to Yaz's level... -Ripken had plenty of compiling too...again, I didn't say compiling is BAD (as most people use it), but the issue with Jeter is that he's ONLY a compiler...Ripken was awesome at his peak...of course, since so much of his career came in the '80s, his perception suffers along with the rest of the poor buggers who played then. As I already showed, Yaz played half this career as among the best in the game, then aged and settled into a Jeter level compiler AFTERWARD - MOST IMPORTANTLY , this is not meant to insult or criticize Jeter...I'm only stating the facts. For his career, Jeter is without a doubt a HOFer AND one of the best SS's ever...largely because most of the SS hitters at or above Jeter's level had nowhere near the bulk career Jeter had (*cough* Nomar Garciaparra *cough*). But this thread didn't ask about Jeter the HOFer...it asked to place Jeter among the 3000 hit club. The thing about the 3000 hit club is it's full of great, great players, and a few where were very good for a long enough time. Derek Jeter, a man who had every advantage you could ask for as a hitter, who was a hits specialist, is "only" just getting to 3000 hits at age 37, and likely with only a few years left on his career. Many of the other members of the club were not on great team, didn't play in great ballparks, offered other offensive advantages (power being the biggest)...he's a worthy member of the club, and worthy member of The Hall...but Yankee fans, as is always the case, don't want to settle for "HOF SS". They want, they NEED, him to be the best ever, and will do whatever they can to make him such. To properly investigate an issue like this, you chose the proper criteria, see how the chips fall, and then analyze...Yankee fans WANT to paint Jeter as the best ever, so they adjust the criteria being analyzed until it "shows" that he is. News flash: he isn't. And I don't blame people from hearing so many tainted and biased arguments from the NY media and fans that they've started buying into them...it's only natural. But it doesn't make it right. When I heard someone on NY talk radio say that Jeter was possibly better than Yaz, I set out NOT to prove them wrong, but to see if it were true or not. Knowing that they played in completely different eras, I set the criteria first...OPS+ will get me started quite easily. It's a quick and dirty way to compare players from different eras. If Jeter had had a higher career OPS+, that wouldn't be the end of the argument (largely because Yaz's career OPS+ is lower than it should be, given that he played for so long, whereas Jeter's career isn't done yet), but at that point I'd have to be ready to conceed the point. But I was actually surprised to find that Yaz was not only better than Jeter in the stat, but was actually WAAAAAY better...undeniably better. Without having to factor ANYTHING else in, almost all of which would likely prove to Yaz's advantage, it's already clear that Yaz was at least a step above Jeter. Hence my conclusion...not because I set out to prove Yaz was better, but because the criteria clearly says he is. If you want to question the criteria chosen, be my guest, but I have a very hard time seeing how that bridge can be gapped. I'll give you one hint though: doing so has NOTHING to do with rings. My god, using team accomplishments to judge individual players...the NY media has won another victory...
    Posted by redsoxu571

    You exaggerate. Nobody in the NY media said Jeter was the greatest. (see bottom) And Rings is the BOTTOM Line; and you act like that’s nothing. Au contraire, No Jeter, no 5 Rings. Also, to poo-poo raw stats, well, I don't agree with that (RS fans are quick to avoid normalized stats when comparing Ruth & TW; posturing as convenient), ditto with Jeter's amazing intangibles. And criticizing the flip play is ridiculous, if it was practised so much, I believe Torre would have mentioned it in his book, and in the book he was wild about that play (but not his range); he claimed NOBODY else would have been able to perform, as he put it, "The improvised Internal Calculus necessary to execute such a play could not have been done by anyone else” 

    I’ve also seen Jeter have loud pulled outs at YS. Let’s look at the Home/Road splits:

                OPS Home    OPS Road     Difference

    Yaz           .904           .779            +125

    Jeter         .852           .811              +41

    As FW is in general a notorious hitter's park, this kind of puts the carbache on your ballpark factor argument.

    Speaking of Compiling, Yaz had 13991 PAs; 2nd to Rose (I believe),Once again, in a similar ERA, Ripken had a .276 BA; enough said.

    Note the repost based on the recent Boston Globe 10.0 thread, where the NY media ranked Jeter lower than Ryan & DuMont:

     ----------------------------------

    Bob Ryan claimed that Derek Jeter is better than the following 3 K Hit Club Members, in decreasing order (This surprised me too)

    Al Kaline       (Ryan's only tough one)

    Wade Boggs (WFAN disagrees)

    Yaz            (WFAN disagrees)

    Cal Ripken (Ryan's partner Dumont disagrees)

    Lou Brock (WFAN disagrees)

    Robin Yount (As mentioned on WFAN only)

    Paul Molitor

    Eddie Murray (WFAN disagrees)

    Rafael Palmiero

    Craig Biggio 

    We can both cherry pick till the cows come home; it’s safe to say we disagree. Yaz is arguable, but to belittle Jeter as very good, is rather remarkable IMO.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from The---Babe---. Show The---Babe---'s posts

    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    In Response to WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB? : I would have to give Robin Yount the top slot.  Jeter is one of my favorite players but Yount was my favorite "all round" SS in the AL.

    Posted by craze4sox

    Aside from the fact that yount only played about half of his career at SS....geez.....

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB? : One thing that all this analysis of Jeter's career has made clear is that the HOF SSs are fairly unimpressive compared to many of the other positions. Jeter's had one of the best careers for a SS, hands down...again, that wasn't really what this discussion was about, though. And once you expand the field from SS's to all HOFers, it changes things too (it should also be considered that Jeter probably shouldn't have stayed at SS for as long as he has...and most players of Jeter's profile were moved from SS later in their careers, because, well...it helped their teams win even more). Here's a little HOF "math" for you...when it comes to judging careers: Very good per year + long career = great career Great per year + not so long career = great career Great per year + long career = awesome career Jeter is part of the first group...it doesn't make his career any less great than, say, Sandy Koufax's (whose career was only a fraction as long, but who was also way, way, waaaay better), but it definitely makes his career less great than those players who had awesome seasons AND played for a long time. When it comes to making a list of who the "best SS's" were, it also depends on how you define the question. If you're asking which SS's had the best careers, Jeter is right up there...perhaps he'll even be #1 when all is said and done, for overall, total career. If you're asking who was best, though, on a qualitative basis, I think he tumbles far down the list, as his best was exceeded by the bests of many others. One really quick example...Jeter's career eats Nomar's career for lunch, and leaves leftovers for the orphans down the street. But if you want to ask who the better SS was...I'd take Nomar over Jeter with confidence. Whether you agree or disagree with me exactly on that, at worst, Nomar through his time with the Red Sox was at least as good as Jeter, so qualitatively they are at least even...but if you're judging their full careers, it's not even up for debate, as Jeter wins by a landslide. So, was Jeter one of the best SS's ever? It depends partially on the question itself...but if we're judging Jeter the player, not Jeter the career, he's a lot closer to "very good" than "great".
    Posted by redsoxu571


    Comparing let's say Warren Spahn to, let's say Koufax, is always difficult. Dick Radatz might have been the greatest reliever ever .. for 3 seasons. Dwight Gooden's another; honors are not coming his way either. (There's also whispers about Nomar and PEDs, but that's besides the point; and speaking of Home Park advantages) Nomar's not going to be a 1st ballot HOFer; so while he had 2 or 3 great seasons, this comparison should have died long ago. Also, his glovework just about disintegrated by 2003.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from The---Babe---. Show The---Babe---'s posts

    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB? : Comparing let's say Warren Spahn to, let's say Koufax, is always difficult. Dick Radatz might have been the greatest reliever ever .. for 3 seasons. Dwight Gooden's another; honors are not coming his way either. (There's also whispers about Nomar and PEDs, but that's besides the point; and speaking of Home Park advantages) Nomar's not going to be a 1st ballot HOFer; so while he had 2 or 3 great seasons, this comparison should have died long ago. Also, his glovework just about disintegrated by 2003.

    Posted by nhsteven

    nomar is not going to be a HOFer period.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    One more point u571; if Jeter wasn't ever the best hitter at his position, why did he win 4 consecutive silver slugger awards between '06 and '09?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN. Show COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN's posts

    Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?

    In Response to Re: WHERE DOES JETER RANK AMONGST HIS PEERS IN THE 3000 HIT CLUB?:
    Read your history and learn about players from the past before you go ranking today's stars against all-time greats. In my estimation, Jeter ranks quite a bit lower than many of the players you say he is "ahead" of. I mean really, Stan Musial, Roberto Clemente, Eddie Murray and Tony Gwynn? Did you ever even see these guys play? I saw Gwynn and Murray. I've read many books on the history of the game and seen many highlights of Musial and Clemente. Jeter is good standing amongst the players of his own era, but when you say he's better than  or "ahead of" Stan "the Man" Musial , I question your knowledge of baseball history. And what makes you say Henderson "quit on many teams?" He is not known as the brightest bulb in the box, but I have never heard Rickey called a quitter.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD
    U SAW ALL THOSE GUYS PLAY? COME ON.. I SAW GUYS AFTER 1975 when i had conscious muscle memory! guys pre-me, who knows.. musial was great, but no way is he better than jeter. have read up on him and seen as many stills as possible. jeter is the most special player of the most special era on the most special team in mlb, with the most special role as captain with the most special of media coverage everyday.. you have to give him a few extra props over stan the man. 

    as for hendersen, i lived in NY when he was there. he would pull a lot of manny moments. always whined about his contract and pay, always put ricky ahead of everything. he once missed games with a phnatom hamstring injury in the middle of a pennant race til he was reupped in the middle of the season. imagine an ortiz doing that last season? u lose points for that in my book. 

    jeter is perhaps the greatest winner in the hhistory of the game! knid of the tom brady of baseball! look at today? perfect example of what the man does. on his way to hitting for the cycle against one of the best pitchers in baseball with all the pressure all around. hits a HR for #3000, only the second to ever do that and he's not really a HR guy. 
     
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