is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    Ortiz's postseason heroics go far beyond what any other Red Sox player has achieved. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to SoxFanInIL's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Loved Yaz as a kid.  But Papi has accomplished more for the Sox.

    People used to love to talk about how "clutch" Yaz was... but after '67, not so much. A 1978 popup comes to mind.

    Yaz played on so great teams too, so don't use that one. Papi with his mind-boggling clutch hitting over 10 years and 3 WS wins.  Winner, all day, every day

    Playing a nice left field doesnt make up the difference.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yaz's postseason OPS was higher than Ortiz.

    As for post 1967: Yaz led the Sox in hitting in the 1975 World Series. He killed the A's offensively and defensively in the 1975 ALCS.

    And in the 1978 game against the Yankees, Yaz accounted for three of the four runs the Sox scored.

    Who knows what would be different if there was a wild card in 1977 and 1978.

    And Gammons once compiled a list of the key game of Yaz' career -- key games in the pennant races and postseason and Yaz had great numbers in those games.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yastrzemski didn't get as many chances to play in postseason, there was no East and West....so no ALCS, there was no ALDS....there was no Wildcard teams.

    Yaz played for many seasons when the postseason was just the World Series.

    You can't compare players from different eras, it is just not fair.

    Ortiz heroics are legendary. But, still in all my years of following the team , I have not seen a year by a position player in baseball like what Yaz had in 1967. He carried the team, truly was not only MVP, he did it all....BA, HRs, RBI, DEFENSE. If not for Bob Gibson, he would have his ring. if not for Joe Morgan , he might have two. But the he never had the chance to get more. Not his fault.

    Anyone who ever saw Bobby Orr play, wouldn't mention his name in the same breath with any other athlete in Boston sports history. I watched this man play with basically one knee for a number of seasons and he still was amazing. Ortiz as a hitter is as good as or better than many MLB players, it is debatable whether Cabrera , Pujols , Jeter or a Helton or any number of other players was better....in the NHL in 1966-1975 ( and he was not 100% for most of those years) - there was NO DEBATE, Orr was simply on a different level than not only every NHL player, but he was on a different level than any SUPERSTAR in the NHL.

    [/QUOTE]

    Great post Z. Couldn't have said it better.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    Great conversation so far! I understand all of the arguements.  I would NEVER discount anything that Yaz did in his career.  Again, he was one of my favorites of all time.  I have his autograph mounted in my 'man cave'....the guy is an all time Sox great without a DOUBT. 

    I just really think that as difficult as it is to compare players from different era's that if you look at the actual IMPACT Yaz had on his team and that Ortiz had/s on his team....Ortiz simply has a bigger impact.  I really am not a huge stats guy although they do serve a purpose in this type of conversation....but one thing it doesn't measure is the things we don't see.  What their presence in the lineup does as a whole, what their presence on the team does for their teamates ....etc...  I just think overall Ortiz has been the bigger impact player and has meant more to his team.  That's why I rank him a close second behind Ted in the overall order of Sox greats. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to djcbuffum's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to CommyContrarianOnTwitter's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    papi is really pushing his iconic stats up. one more ring or run and he'll b #1 all-time sox (sorry but owning RINGS matter). after that, talking ahead of da likes of tommy the brady, birdy+bobby orr. then just trailing da immortal billy russell... no1 will top russ.. period!

    [/QUOTE]

    If I remember, Yaz had a glove and played here for 23 +- years.......  A tripple crown too.......  Heck, it would be an injustice to put PAPI before YAZ  !!!

    [/QUOTE]

    Yaz was a 1bman/DH not much of a glove. He was also the ultimate compiler of stats.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yaz played most of his carrer in left field. He was only a 1b/DH for the last few years. Also, Batting Average is not a "compiled" stat, and last time I checked it was one of the three parts of a Triple Crown.

    [/QUOTE]


    Simple question.....if Yaz came in 2nd place in any of the triple crown categories in 67....would we still be having this conversation?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    I posted this on another thread, so I thought I'd add it here.

    You have to look at the era he played. He played eight years before the mound was lowered so it's unfair to compare him with players who came after him with batting average. When he led the league with .301, the league average was .237 -- something like that. And if it were not for a wrist injury that killed his stats in two years that should have been part of his prime ('71 and '72) all his career totals would have been higher including BA.

    Just look at how Yaz compared with players of his era.

    The case for:

    First, he was one of the best defensive left fielders of all time (if not the best).

    He led the league in batting three times and nearly a fourth. During his career, only Tony Oliva (three) and Rod Carew (7) had more batting titles and neither had his power.

    He won a Triple Crown.

    He led the league in batting categories (R, H, 2B, 3B, HR, RBI, BA, SB, BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+) 29 times. No AL player of his era (players who played the bulk of their career in the 1960s and 1970s) comes close. (31 if you add BB).

    Others:
    F.Robinson 21 (althought most of that was NL. I included him because he split leagues).
    Carew 19.
    Allen 18 (same note as Robinson)
    Jackson 16.
    Killebrew 12 (16 with BB).

    Others whose career overlapped 1950s-1960s or 1970s-1980s):
    Mantle 32 (36 with BB)
    George Brett 20 
    Rice 11.

    NL Contemporaries:
    Rose 21
    McCovey 15
    Stargell 10

    Others whose career overlapped 1950s-1960s or 1970s-1980s) on:
    Mays 34
    Schmidt 32
    Aaron 29

     

    FWIW: Ortiz's number is 6.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    If Yastrzemski had played DH his whole career ( and he couldn't because the DH didn't exist in the earlier part Yaz career) , we would have missed many of the man's best moments.

    This man could play caroms off the Monster like no one else.

    People mostly remember the Triple Crown, the homeruns, the batting titles. But Yastrzemski made outstanding defensive plays ( he was the Ozzie Smith of Leftfielders...no doubt). Th catch he made in Billy Rohr's "almost no-hitter" is legendary.....the times he cut down runners who assumed every ball off the Wall was a double ( yes, even speedy runners) were always game highlights.

    Yaz, as a hitter was Hall Of Fame. As a Leftfielder he was Hall Of Fame. As a hiiter and fielder he was simply amazing....think of Dustin Pedroia with more power.....that's Yaz.

     
  8. This post has been removed.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to The4040club's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Kingface12's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to djcbuffum's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to CommyContrarianOnTwitter's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    papi is really pushing his iconic stats up. one more ring or run and he'll b #1 all-time sox (sorry but owning RINGS matter). after that, talking ahead of da likes of tommy the brady, birdy+bobby orr. then just trailing da immortal billy russell... no1 will top russ.. period!

    [/QUOTE]

    If I remember, Yaz had a glove and played here for 23 +- years.......  A tripple crown too.......  Heck, it would be an injustice to put PAPI before YAZ  !!!

    [/QUOTE]

    Yaz was a 1bman/DH not much of a glove. He was also the ultimate compiler of stats.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yaz played most of his carrer in left field. He was only a 1b/DH for the last few years. Also, Batting Average is not a "compiled" stat, and last time I checked it was one of the three parts of a Triple Crown.

    [/QUOTE]


    Simple question.....if Yaz came in 2nd place in any of the triple crown categories in 67....would we still be having this conversation?

    [/QUOTE]


    I really don't deal in what ifs so the conversation is going on.  To the poster who talked about a pop up?  Seriously? 

    You should also do some research about the playing conditions in those day.  Rice talks about one, possibly two pair of cleats for the entire season.  So if they got wet, good luck if you were doing a double header or even the next game.

    Those were different players in those days.  No bling no big contracts no private jets no great trainers.

    In 67 the sox lost tony c and in 75 they lost rice.  Imagine in 04 and 07 if the sox had lost manny.  Ortiz would be down to one ring.

    [/QUOTE]


    Good point. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to The4040club's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In 67 the sox lost tony c and in 75 they lost rice.  Imagine in 04 and 07 if the sox had lost manny.  Ortiz would be down to one ring.

    [/QUOTE]

    With no Ortiz we would be down to zero rings.

     

     
  11. This post has been removed.

     
  12. This post has been removed.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to The4040club's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Best not answered but glad both played.  Probably the only thing I will counter with is:  could Ortiz have played in Yaz's era?  Low pay, an era when high maintenance players where frowned on.  The next day after he burst into a coach's office he would have been shipped out.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's not true at all.  In fact Yaz was high maintenance himself at times.  It's well known that he and Dick Williams hated each other and that Yaz had a lot to do with getting Williams fired.  Tom Yawkey put his stars first.

     

     

     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to The4040club's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to The4040club's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Best not answered but glad both played.  Probably the only thing I will counter with is:  could Ortiz have played in Yaz's era?  Low pay, an era when high maintenance players where frowned on.  The next day after he burst into a coach's office he would have been shipped out.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's not true at all.  In fact Yaz was high maintenance himself at times.  It's well known that he and Dick Williams hated each other and that Yaz had a lot to do with getting Williams fired.  Tom Yawkey put his stars first.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Everyone heard stories but most of that came out after dick left.  Red Sox have gone thru a number of managers and even with Tito, lacked style on his departure.

    In public they showed nothing but respect.  Williams most likely over managed when with athletes  like yaz, bird and ortiz, you just leave them alone.  The only thing a coach needs to know with a guy like bird, is to say give larry the ball.  With the 04 and 07 teams, tito basically filled out the line up cards and retreated to the dugout.

    Yaz and crew did not even have a decent gym.   Rico and Mike andrews had lockers next to my father at the cambridge YMCA.

    Yaz was and still is a private guy, not high maintenance at all.  It wasn't all yaz against dick.  Williams wanted more black players and Yawkey was always opposed.

    [/QUOTE]

    By the time Williams managed, the Sox had of black players. Regardless of what Yawkey's attitude was in the past, Dick O'Connell already won the battle -- George Scott, Reggie Smith among others. By the time Williams managed, O'Connell had full power concerning players.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?


    Williams lost 5 YEARS to the military during his prime AND he didn't DH.  He PLAYED until he couldn't anymore.  No knock on Ortiz, but how long do you think he'd last if he had to play every day?

    It's almost scary to think what numbers Williams would have had if not interrupted for 5 years.

    Before some renovation, there was much more concrete and rivets etc. on the wall.  This made playing it considerably more difficult in the older days.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to The4040club's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Kingface12's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Who has meant more for his team during HIS TENURE with the team?  Yaz or Ortiz?  Really think about that question before answering it according to who your favorite is.

    [/QUOTE]


    Best not answered but glad both played.  Probably the only thing I will counter with is:  could Ortiz have played in Yaz's era?  Low pay, an era when high maintenance players where frowned on.  The next day after he burst into a coach's office he would have been shipped out.  No bling on the field and reporters always asked the tough questions.

    He would have had to play a position which would have most likely shortened his career. Umpires weren't as gracious in those days to grant a batter a time out, something Ortiz is masterful at to disrupt the pitcher.

     no doubt yaz could have played today.

    [/QUOTE]

    What you're ignoring is the fact that if Ortiz was brought up in a different era with lower pay and where the demeanor of what was allowed was different Ortiz would have come into the game with a different way of looking at things with different expectations than he has now coming into the game years later. Of course he could have played the game in that or any era, most likely at first base. 

    Hetch

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to ampoule's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Williams lost 5 YEARS to the military during his prime AND he didn't DH.  He PLAYED until he couldn't anymore.  No knock on Ortiz, but how long do you think he'd last if he had to play every day?

    It's almost scary to think what numbers Williams would have had if not interrupted for 5 years.

    Before some renovation, there was much more concrete and rivets etc. on the wall.  This made playing it considerably more difficult in the older days.

    [/QUOTE]

    Whether Ted William's numbers would have been much different than what he finished with after 19 year in MLB is only conjecture. Yes his lost early prime years in his mid to late twenties if he'd not been in the service might have made a difference but possibly not huge. If TW had not missed those years the wear and tear on his body would have been more substantial so he might have retired at a younger age than at 41. It's fun to think about but who is to know. 

    Hetch

     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ampoule's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Williams lost 5 YEARS to the military during his prime AND he didn't DH.  He PLAYED until he couldn't anymore.  No knock on Ortiz, but how long do you think he'd last if he had to play every day?

    It's almost scary to think what numbers Williams would have had if not interrupted for 5 years.

    Before some renovation, there was much more concrete and rivets etc. on the wall.  This made playing it considerably more difficult in the older days.

    [/QUOTE]

    Whether Ted William's numbers would have been much different than what he finished with after 19 year in MLB is only conjecture. Yes his lost early prime years in his mid to late twenties if he'd not been in the service might have made a difference but possibly not huge. If TW had not missed those years the wear and tear on his body would have been more substantial so he might have retired at a younger age than at 41. It's fun to think about but who is to know. 

    Hetch

    [/QUOTE]


    Hetch,

    I respect your messages too much to discount what you usually have to say, but to state that it would be 'conjecture' to think the numbers Williams might have achieved if his prime 5 years were not taken away almost, to me, borderlines on the absurd.  We're not talking wear and tear here, we're talking about any athlete whose reflexes diminish with time.  The fact alone that he was effective at all at age 41 is remarkable in itself.

    We're talking PRIME years here, my friend.  No, if he hadn't lost those years, his numbers would have been out of sight.

     
  21. This post has been removed.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: is PAPI now ahead of YAZ+only barely trailing #9 all-time?

    In response to LagunaJose's comment:

    Bobby Orr was the best hockey player that I ever watched.

    I don't watch much hockey, so I won't comment on this.

    Bill Russell was the best defensive NBA player ever.

    He certainly was among the best and had a huge impact upon the game.  There were many other great defensive players, some who never distinguished themselves at both ends of the floor quite like Russell did.  

     Larry Bird was a great scorer and clutch player.

    Unlike Hall and Oates, I can go for that.  This is among your more accurate statements as it doesn't involve any superlatives and comparisons.

    Tom Brady is a great QB and only Joe Namath might have been better.

    Tom Brady is a great QB, but, ahem...

     Rafael Nadal is the best tennis player that I ever watched. 

    Like with hockey, I won't comment on sports I don't regularly watch.

    Ted Williams was the greatest baseball hitter who ever lived in my lifetime.

    Although this is a superlative, it's hard to disagree with.  Ted played before my lifetime, but he certainly earned the numbers to back this statement up.

    Nomar was the best shortstop that I've seen on a Red Sox team.

    At the plate, yes.  He probably got some chemical help with that if you know what I mean.

    Best clutch hit by a Red Sox player was by Bernie Carbo.

    Carbo's dinger was certainly clutch, but no more or less so than a number of clutch hits in Red Sox history.  Bill Mueller comes to mind.  Dave Henderson has a couple in his collection that are often overlooked because of the ultimate heartbreak of the 1986 season.   To name several more: Carlton Fisk's gesture guided missile, JD Drew's slam, Shane Victorino's over and off the monster shots, Gomes's series trajectory changer, and Big Papi is such a repeat offender, that for time's sake, I'll spare us the litany.  

    Too bad Carbo was so high on drugs that he didn't remember his greatest moment as a baseball player.

     All great memories to cherish. Loved all of them.

    Nothing to refute or qualify here.  Cherish is the word that I use to descibe...

     




     

Share