Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : No, I am not making stuff up. He may have had halfway decent % but the bottom line is runners run on him frequently because they know they can steal on him. Look at this year. OK % but still among the league leaders in stolen bases against (that's both him and salty).
    Posted by The---Babe---[/QUOTE]

    I'll say it again: RedSox pitchers are notorious for being run upon, mainly because the FO does not condone the side step. Research every catcher who comes to Boston. Their CS rate tends to drop significantly.
     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : That's a damn good question. What do you think?

    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I think he's probably borderline. He may be helped because of the rings, the lack of other comparable catchers in his era and when all these PED guys are on the ballot they are going to have to vote for somebody to get in.

     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : Agreed, and check my corrections to my previous post, there were some inaccuracies. Also, In '75-'77, he was the first player in a decade or two to have 3 consecutive .300, 100 RBIs season; and as a catcher. 
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    Munson was both underrated and overrated. I always felt he was somewhat overrated as a catcher. But having said that he was much better than I was willing to give him credit for when I was a kid.

    Obviously, being a Red Sox fan, I loved Fisk when I was a kid and hated Munson, so I never wanted to give Munson his due. Taking emotion out of the mix, Munson, while not a Hall of Famer, certainly was an All-Star in his prime and had some excellent seasons as a catcher.

    I still don't think he was better than Fisk, even if you take how the home parks helped or hurt each player, but they were worthy All-Stars in their prime and it made for a great and worthy rivalry.
     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : No, but I'm not a Posada fan. FWIW, he was ranked #10 in the greatest catcher list of all time I posted; which is a sorry list that just about completely forgets the old timers, like Cochrane, Hartnett, Lopez, Lombardi, Ferrell, and others.

    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    Let's see...you aren't a Posada fan and you think Yogi is over rated. And you wonder why we all think you are a sawx fan.....sheesh.

     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    Sounds like a bunch of excuses about the caught stealing rate being all on the pitchers.
     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : I think he's probably borderline. He may be helped because of the rings, the lack of other comparable catchers in his era and when all these PED guys are on the ballot they are going to have to vote for somebody to get in.
    Posted by The---Babe---[/QUOTE]

    Why borderline? Posada was the best offensive catcher of his era.
    His hitting numbers are amazing. Why is he not a shoe-in?
     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]Sounds like a bunch of excuses about the caught stealing rate being all on the pitchers.
    Posted by The---Babe---[/QUOTE]

    You are getting sound and proven logic and you call them excuses.
    And you wonder why posters don't wish to debate you. Sheesh.
     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : Munson was both underrated and overrated. I always felt he was somewhat overrated as a catcher. But having said that he was much better than I was willing to give him credit for when I was a kid. Obviously, being a Red Sox fan, I loved Fisk when I was a kid and hated Munson, so I never wanted to give Munson his due. Taking emotion out of the mix, Munson, while not a Hall of Famer, certainly was an All-Star in his prime and had some excellent seasons as a catcher. I still don't think he was better than Fisk, even if you take how the home parks helped or hurt each player, but they were worthy All-Stars in their prime and it made for a great and worthy rivalry.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    I admire your objectivity. That must  been painful to post, if you felt toward that rivalry as I did. Either way, Munson's end was tragic.
     
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : Position has a lot to do with expectations of offensive output. Weighing Tek's all-around game against the current HOF'ers: How does he rate in your opinion? Does VMART rate higher with 4-year numerical projection?
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]


    I made my own VERY OPINIONATED C RANKINGS OF HOF Catchers, +  Varitek, and IDGAC what others think.


    1. Gibson (Incl Neg Lg)
    2. Cochrane
    3. Bench (I'll take heat for this)
    4. Hartnett
    5. Berra (Great Clutch Player, otherwise Lower)
    6. Campanella  (Incl Neg Lg)
    7. Dickey
    8. Fisk
    9. Ewing
    10. Bresnahan
    11. Carter
    12. Varitek
    13. Ferrell (And he was good
    14. Schalk (Great C, but Lifetime .253 BA in DB Era)

    Honorable Mention (less PEDs): Pudge

     

     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : Thanks for your valued opinion of my opinion. Yes to VMart's projection making him rate higher, but I still don't think he make it. I need to think over the others, but he's definitely better than Schalk.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]
     
    I know what you prioritize in a catcher. That being said, do you really think VMART will project higher?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : Let's see...you aren't a Posada fan and you think Yogi is over rated. And you wonder why we all think you are a sawx fan.....sheesh.
    Posted by The---Babe---[/QUOTE]

    Posada is a great player, and possibly a HOFer (But I think Pettite is more likely, HGH taint notwithstanding); he just had a tendency to make bonehead plays.

    Otherwise, We all Think? You're a joke.

    By accusing me of being a Sawx fan, you enhance my credibility on this RS forum, and hurt yours. Ever think of that, Poindexter?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? :   I know what you prioritize in a catcher. That being said, do you really think VMART will project higher?
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Some, but as a generic player mostly.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from FarmFan. Show FarmFan's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]His career numbers, so far: .301 BA  137 HR  686 RBI  .369 OBS  .838 OPS  .469 SLG 4-time All-Star. It's your call.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    harness you are a complete loser and so transparent.  You get peed off because Teks numbers don't come close to HOF recognition so you have to try and get everyones opinion on Victor who you have critisized in every way possible.  Hers the bottom line idiot, Victor can hit and has a lifetime FLG percentage equal to or better than Tek and he probably doesn't deserve to go as a catcher.

    What a baby you are, I wish more people could read through your stubbornness and jealousy towards anyone who doesnt think your lover Jason is worthy.  No wonder so many people hate you
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : Munson was both underrated and overrated. I always felt he was somewhat overrated as a catcher. But having said that he was much better than I was willing to give him credit for when I was a kid. Obviously, being a Red Sox fan, I loved Fisk when I was a kid and hated Munson, so I never wanted to give Munson his due. Taking emotion out of the mix, Munson, while not a Hall of Famer, certainly was an All-Star in his prime and had some excellent seasons as a catcher. I still don't think he was better than Fisk, even if you take how the home parks helped or hurt each player, but they were worthy All-Stars in their prime and it made for a great and worthy rivalry.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Disagree. Munson had a rocket arm, and often (relatively speaking) picked off base runners; (in HS, he once picked off the bases loaded!).
    IMO, he was better behind the dish than Berra, this is my subjective ranking defensively of some of the Yankee catchers:

    1. Howard
    2. Munson
    3. Dickey
    4. Cerone
    5. Berra
    6. Gibbs
    7. Posada  

    I believe Martin shall have something to say about this, barring injuries.





     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    Steve, after reading the IS TEK A HOF'er thread, and seeing how posters were adamant about their stance regarding his of non-admission, most every post referenced his lack of offensive qualifications.

    I decided to challenge that stance by advocating VMART by the exact same standard. Since it's felt VMART won't sniff the HOF either, the criteria voters use comes into question. That is really what it's all about.

    And as you pointed out, several who aren't in the HOF do compare favorably to some who were elected. It's a question of why they didn't get in. Once the bar is lowered, the door is opened. Rice opened it as a one-dimensional player
    who played the game clean. That means another could also.
     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : harness you are a complete loser and so transparent.  You get peed off because Teks numbers don't come close to HOF recognition so you have to try and get everyones opinion on Victor who you have critisized in every way possible.  Hers the bottom line idiot, Victor can hit and has a lifetime FLG percentage equal to or better than Tek and he probably doesn't deserve to go as a catcher. What a baby you are, I wish more people could read through your stubbornness and jealousy towards anyone who doesnt think your lover Jason is worthy.  No wonder so many people hate you
    Posted by FarmFan[/QUOTE]

    You are really sick. Your Tek-hate is psychotic. Your baseball knowledge is a joke.
    I see this thread really upset you. Have a few bottles of wine and drown your sorrows.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    I already think the bar is diluted, so I don't know how I really feel about that; not good most likely. Case in point: Kirby Puckett but no Ron Santo? Ridiculous.
     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]Steve , after reading the IS TEK A HOF'er thread, and seeing how posters were adamant about their stance regarding his of non-admission, most every post referenced his lack of offensive qualifications. I decided to challenge that stance by advocating VMART by the exact same standard. Since it's felt VMART won't sniff the HOF either, the criteria voters use comes into question . That is really what it's all about. And as you pointed out, several who aren't in the HOF do compare favorably to some who were elected. It's a question of why they didn't get in . Once the bar is lowered, the door is opened. Rice opened it as a one-dimensional player who played the game clean. That means another could also.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    harness is the biggest punk a..s on this board.  Live with it TEK doesn't even make the top 20
     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : Disagree. Munson had a rocket arm, and often (relatively speaking) picked off base runners; (in HS, he once picked off the bases loaded!). IMO, he was better behind the dish than Berra, this is my subjective ranking defensively of some of the Yankee catchers: 1. Howard 2. Munson 3. Dickey 4. Cerone 5. Berra 6. Gibbs 7. Posada   I believe Martin shall have something to say about this, barring injuries.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    Munson did not have a rocket arm. He had a really quick release that compensated for his lack of arm strength.

    On UR list, I'm amazed you placed Cerone ahead of Berra! I don't think anybody on that list was better than Yogi. But I admit my take is limited. I don't know how Berra stood up defensively - in all areas.

     
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    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    Love HOF debates!

    If VMart plays another 5 years and maintains close to his current output, he'll have solid offensive numbers and get some support and may eventually get close or even in (could be another Jim Rice, going right up to the last chance because he was not a complete player).  If he experiences a significant tail off offensively, he will likely get only some token support for a short while, but never come close to the necessary votes.

    Some of the other C's mentioned were all very good to great players, but none strike me as truly elite.  The best case probably could be made for my most hated player of all times - Munson.  I wouldn't be surprised to see the veterans committee vote him in.  He was a guy you hated to play against in a big game.

    The HOF voters will slowly change over time and the new breed will likely be more willing to look at players like Victor, Edgar Martinez, even a David Ortiz in a different light than some of the current purists that have the priviledge of voting.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : Are u kidding?  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/76241-mlbs-10-greatest-catchers-of-all-time
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    That's my point. Piazza is clearly a HOFer, but his defensive numbers are just so-so. Now, VM will never hit 400 HR's but his BA, OBP, SLG and OPS are pretty impressive, and if he is able to continue the pace for the next 5 or 6 years, he could very well be considered HOF material.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from FarmFan. Show FarmFan's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : You are really sick. Your Tek-hate is psychotic. Your baseball knowledge is a joke. I see this thread really upset you. Have a few bottles of wine and drown your sorrows.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Your the idiot with the hundreds of stupid CERA stats last year and bashing people who know more than you.  You have been living up Teks A--S for years, what is he your lover?  The guy doesn't have anywhere near HOF stats.  Your a geek that most intelligent poster can see right through.  You have been comparing Teks great 250 BA to Victors forever. 

    Go have mommy change your diaper loser.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?: That's my point. Piazza is clearly a HOFer, but his defensive numbers are just so-so. Now, VM will never hit 400 HR's but his BA, OBP, SLG and OPS are pretty impressive, and if he is able to continue the pace for the next 5 or 6 years, he could very well be considered HOF material.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    Then "defense" must be prioritized by the voters, right? Otherwise, Piazza is a no-brainer!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : Your the idiot with the hundreds of stupid CERA stats last year and bashing people who know more than you.  You have been living up Teks A--S for years, what is he your lover?  The guy doesn't have anywhere near HOF stats.  Your a geek that most intelligent poster can see right through.  You have been comparing Teks great 250 BA to Victors forever.  Go have mommy change your diaper loser.
    Posted by FarmFan[/QUOTE]

    Classy stuff.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?

    In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Victor Martinez a HOF'er? : Munson did not have a rocket arm. He had a really quick release that compensated for his lack of arm strength. On UR list, I'm amazed you placed Cerone ahead of Berra! I don't think anybody on that list was better than Yogi. But I admit my take is limited. I don't know how Berra stood up defensively - in all areas.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    You're right, it was mostly release, but I don't recall Munson having a weak arm; and I could be wrong about Cerone & Berra; Cerone only really had 1 good year.

     
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