It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager : When are you apologists going to stop with this lame response?!?!? The fact that the Sox won the WS twice while Coma happened to be manager proves NOTHING. I could just as easily argue that the Sox should have won 2 more times, had Coma NOT been the manager (same llevel of causality). Why don't you address the arguments on the merit, like the fact that he leaves starters in way too long when they clearly don't have it, or that he cannot manage strategically (bunting, pinch hitting, etc.). No problem disagreeing with different peoples' assessments of his abilities, but at least deal with the facts, not some lame response about his having "won" two WS.
    Posted by pschuller


    Yes, he 'leaves starters in too long' but he does so in order to preserve the bullpen over the course of the season.  And every other manager in major league baseball does the same thing.  This is easily verified by checking box scores and game logs.  So this criticism is an uninformed one.


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rip8569. Show rip8569's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    1.  Who are you going to replace him with? 

    2.  If this rant was incited because he left Lackey in too long, then you obviously haven't been aying much attention to the fact that most of the pen was unavailable.  What fresh arm did he have to go to?  Wakefield, that's it.  You run any more of the relief corps out there it increases the possibility that they're weak for the Yankees series.

    3.  When has firing a manager mid season ever lead to good results? 

    It's not Francona's fault that the players are underachieving and you're frustrated with the team.  He's not heaving the meatballs over the plate, and he's not swinging at 2-strike fastballs off the plate.  He has some responsibility for firing up the team no doubt, but it is still up to the players to take the cue and be motivated to win. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxmeister. Show soxmeister's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    You don't fire a man who took you to 2 World Series wins.  What are we, the freaking Yankees?!   Tito's strategy is to wear out the other team by keeping his pitchers in and making opposing batters run the bases .. thus getting them winded, and giving the Sox a huge advantage.

    Yeah, who knows what went on with Lackey being left in there, I almost hurled on the TV it was so aggravating.  But as long as the Sox are in contention by the beginning of August I don't care.    Too early to be firing anybody.  
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from cglassanos. Show cglassanos's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    @ OP: Take a chill pill. They're less than 5 games out with more than half the season left.

    Seriously, the Dead Sox are stinking up the joint due solely to their inconsistent play.  You people cease to amaze me with all the Theo/Tito bashing.  For Christ's sake, the Sox have a 150+ million dollar roster.  If they can't win with that it's on the players. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from cglassanos. Show cglassanos's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    SpacemanEephus, "this is a very good disctinction "yaz".  It is important to understand the lens through which we view things in life.  For me, i love the Sox.  But not because they win championships or really anything based on the under or overachievement of the players.  But because I grew up in a family of Sox fans.  And my greatest joy as a child was going to the fens with my folks (who i love) and later my friends (who i love) and sitting in that beautiful church-like place (which i love).  So, I love the Sox, by virtue of being inseparable from the people i love the most, without condition of winning.  Its more fun when they do.  but, because love in its true definition, as you perhaps allude to, is unconditional, i don't feel the need to whine about management or players when they struggle.  I love the Sox because I love the game.  And because I love the game (in spite of the ridiculous pay scale of the boys who play it), I know that things always have a way of flipping around.  A season in cycles, ebb and flow.  And if it turns out that 2011 is all ebb and no flow, oh well.  I will dissappointed.  But because my love is unconditional, I don't care to destroy anyone trying to make the club succesfull.  If Tito fails after this year, so be it.  Maybe its time for new blood.  But a guy who has steered the club through 2 WS championships, 5 playoffs in 7 years gets a longer leash than May from me for sure."


    COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER.  AMEN!  Seriously, I love you, man.  Jason Segel/Paul Rudd bromance-style. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from the---yaz. Show the---yaz's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    "the sox have a 150+ million dollar roster. if they can't win with that, it's on the players."--cglassanos

    wrong! they have a 150+million dollar roster because of inepstein.
    the failure of this team is on him!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    1.  Who are you going to replace him with?  2.  If this rant was incited because he left Lackey in too long, then you obviously haven't been aying much attention to the fact that most of the pen was unavailable.  What fresh arm did he have to go to?  Wakefield, that's it.  You run any more of the relief corps out there it increases the possibility that they're weak for the Yankees series. 3.  When has firing a manager mid season ever lead to good results?  It's not Francona's fault that the players are underachieving and you're frustrated with the team.  He's not heaving the meatballs over the plate, and he's not swinging at 2-strike fastballs off the plate.  He has some responsibility for firing up the team no doubt, but it is still up to the players to take the cue and be motivated to win. 
    Posted by rip8569


    I've brought this individual up in the past and I firmly believe he'd be a vast improvement over Francona. He would certainly be more adept at handling a pitching staff than Francona has been for 7 plus years. As far as the off field, non game, attributes of Francona is concerned, I believe this particular individul would also be a vast improvement. Google his name and I'm sure you'll agree.
    J. Fred Muggs is his name.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Girardi-Inept. Show Girardi-Inept's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    Girardi did the same thing last night with Nova. Left him in the game until it was 8-0. By then the Yankees were demoralized and lost their will to make a comeback.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rip8569. Show rip8569's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager : I've brought this individual up in the past and I firmly believe he'd be a vast improvement over Francona. He would certainly be more adept at handling a pitching staff than Francona has been for 7 plus years. As far as the off field, non game, attributes of Francona is concerned, I believe this particular individul would also be a vast improvement. Google his name and I'm sure you'll agree. J. Fred Muggs is his name.
    Posted by BOSOX1941


    Yeah, not funny.  Not clever.  You fail.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager : Yes, he 'leaves starters in too long' but he does so in order to preserve the bullpen over the course of the season.  And every other manager in major league baseball does the same thing.  This is easily verified by checking box scores and game logs.  So this criticism is an uninformed one.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    Sorry, but there is an important distinction here that you (and many others) are not making. Saving the BP is one thing, trying to win a game in the late innings quite another. First, in the latter case, there is not going to be as much stress on the BP as when a starter clearly doesn't have it in the second or third inning. Second, the evidence over the last few years suggests that Coma does not take his starters out in time in the late innings because he basically lets them make the call (read also, he is afraid to tick them off or whatever), which is precisely what he is hired NOT to do. He is the manager and is supposed to make the difficult (read, not popular with the players) as well as the strategic decisions. You are certainly welcome to disagree with my assessment, but from where I sit Coma just is not very good at doing that.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    pschuller, can you actually document any examples of Francona not taking a starter out of the game because he was afraid to tick them off?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    pschuller, I see you watch the same games that I watch. I've been asking for him to be fired for 7 plus years now. He's kept this team from becoming a dynasty over the last 7 plus years. Fortunately they've been able to win, a fair number of games, in spite of his buffoonery. Welcome aboard.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rip8569. Show rip8569's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager : Sorry, but there is an important distinction here that you (and many others) are not making. Saving the BP is one thing, trying to win a game in the late innings quite another. First, in the latter case, there is not going to be as much stress on the BP as when a starter clearly doesn't have it in the second or third inning. Second, the evidence over the last few years suggests that Coma does not take his starters out in time in the late innings because he basically lets them make the call (read also, he is afraid to tick them off or whatever), which is precisely what he is hired NOT to do. He is the manager and is supposed to make the difficult (read, not popular with the players) as well as the strategic decisions. You are certainly welcome to disagree with my assessment, but from where I sit Coma just is not very good at doing that.
    Posted by pschuller


    Seriously?  You really think that if Francona thinks a pitcher is gassed that he lets the pitcher decide if he can stay in the game?  If Francona wants a guy out of the game he makes the call.  He's the boss.  If he leaves a guy in there one batter too long that's his directive, not the pitcher's. 

    I'm not advocating that Francona always makes the right decision on when to pull a pitcher, but you also have to have a firm grasp on all the issues that come with making those decisions.  He has to manage for the time of season (early, mid, late), for the short term, and the long term.  Francona believes that putting the load on the starters and keeping his pen fresh through the season is important, especially early in the season.  I'm not saying I agree with it but that is what he tends to do. 

    The guy also has to manage personalities and egos.  He has to fill his players with confidence and give them opportunities to succeed.  If you keep taking away those types of chances (the Lackey blow up inning specifically) all the time, you cut that player's confidence.  Sometimes it doesn't work out.  But imo it does more good than bad over an entire season. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from rip8569. Show rip8569's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    pschuller, I see you watch the same games that I watch. I've been asking for him to be fired for 7 plus years now. He's kept this team from becoming a dynasty over the last 7 plus years. Fortunately they've been able to win, a fair number of games, in spite of his buffoonery. Welcome aboard.
    Posted by BOSOX1941


    Well it's a good thing you're not running this team, because you think an ape would do a better job.  I ask you this serious question:

    Who would you seriously pick to replace Francona that would be better? 

    If you can't provide a decent answer to this question then I suggest you shut up.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    rip8569, you're new here.  Don't even bother trying to have a discussion with BOSOX1941 about Francona.  It will be one of the most futile experiences of your life.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    the reason why i started this discussion was related to an earlier thread that I said that the Sox would need to change managers by mid-May if things continue to go poorly...granted this was first written when we were really slumping but I can see TR being fired if this weekend was a disaster...I highly doubt it however...I actually like the pitching matchups this weekend believe it or not and wouldnt be shocked if we took 2 in NY!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    rip8569, you're new here.  Don't even bother trying to have a discussion with BOSOX1941 about Francona.  It will be one of the most futile experiences of your life.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    It is nice of you to provide that advice to new people. Thank you.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    rip, I didn't say the monkey would be a good manager. Although he would certainly be as good as Francona.
    It's good to see you're easily led.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    pschuller, can you actually document any examples of Francona not taking a starter out of the game because he was afraid to tick them off?
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    I am not sure what you mean by "document"--it's not like I have a press pass and have access to them for postgame interviews--but I certainly have observed a considerable number of times when a starter pitcher (most often Beckett) has demonstrated his displeasure, either on the mound after Coma comes out or in the dugout immediately thereafter. Granted they could just be mad at themselves, but you look carefully enough, you can see from their body language that they thought they should still be on the mound. (BTW, I notice that a number of posters keep asking others to "document" observations, as if that would be the only way to legitimize them. Humans basically operate by observing others' behaviors and responding accordingly, so I believe that observing behavior of baseball players and managers is a perfectly sound way to draw conclusions, and if others want to challenge those conclusions with other observations, that's fine, but demanding "documentation" to prove a point is a bit of a reach.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager : Seriously?  You really think that if Francona thinks a pitcher is gassed that he lets the pitcher decide if he can stay in the game?  If Francona wants a guy out of the game he makes the call.  He's the boss.  If he leaves a guy in there one batter too long that's his directive, not the pitcher's.  I'm not advocating that Francona always makes the right decision on when to pull a pitcher, but you also have to have a firm grasp on all the issues that come with making those decisions.  He has to manage for the time of season (early, mid, late), for the short term, and the long term.  Francona believes that putting the load on the starters and keeping his pen fresh through the season is important, especially early in the season.  I'm not saying I agree with it but that is what he tends to do.  The guy also has to manage personalities and egos.  He has to fill his players with confidence and give them opportunities to succeed.  If you keep taking away those types of chances (the Lackey blow up inning specifically) all the time, you cut that player's confidence.  Sometimes it doesn't work out.  But imo it does more good than bad over an entire season. 
    Posted by rip8569


    Speaking of confidence, I bet leaving Lackey in to give up 9 runs did a world of good for his.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager : I am not sure what you mean by "document"--it's not like I have a press pass and have access to them for postgame interviews--but I certainly have observed a considerable number of times when a starter pitcher (most often Beckett) has demonstrated his displeasure, either on the mound after Coma comes out or in the dugout immediately thereafter. Granted they could just be mad at themselves, but you look carefully enough, you can see from their body language that they thought they should still be on the mound. Posted by pschuller


    OK, fair enough, document wasn't a good word, I just meant give some examples.  But what you just described were situations where Francona did take the starter out of the game whether they were displeased or not.  I highly doubt that he's ever left a starter in the game because he didn't want to upset them.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    why is this even an issue in may with the team getting closer to .500?
     
    even small market teams with near .500 marks in may never get fired. francona has a long term contract and has been very successful in his tenure in boston.

    sure the sox have not had the start everyone expected, but the season is only 25% over at this point.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from rip8569. Show rip8569's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager : Speaking of confidence, I bet leaving Lackey in to give up 9 runs did a world of good for his.
    Posted by pschuller


    Well like I said, sometimes it doesn't work out.  But if you don't give your players a chance to succeed, they never will.  How do you expect Francona to get this guy back on track if every time he screws up he gets removed from the game?  I don't know how this is so hard to understand.   

    And you still haven't told me who will do a better job than Francona that is available.  That right there makes you lose in this argument. Like I said, if you can't come up with one guy that could manage better that is available so Francona can be fired, then your entire argument is moot.
     
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from rip8569. Show rip8569's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    rip8569, you're new here.  Don't even bother trying to have a discussion with BOSOX1941 about Francona.  It will be one of the most futile experiences of your life.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    If I can convince one person with a head full of bricks they are wrong then it is all worth it.  But thanks for the heads up lol.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager

    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager:
    In Response to Re: It Is Mid-May - Time to Fire Our Manager : OK, fair enough, document wasn't a good word, I just meant give some examples.  But what you just described were situations where Francona did take the starter out of the game whether they were displeased or not.  I highly doubt that he's ever left a starter in the game because he didn't want to upset them.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    Ah, the proverbial "philosopher's dilemma"--it seems unlikely that we would ever be able to observe a pitcher smiling to himself because he didn't get taken out of a game when he knew he should have been and it's also seems unlikely that in any post game interview Coma would admit that he really wanted to take the guy out but was afraid to hurt his feelings!!

    Guess we better just agree to disagree on this one, but I would be surprised if I were the only one whose observations have led him to believe that Coma is afraid to take some pitchers out in certain situations, and as a manager I don't think you can afford to do that.
     
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