Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    2009, 2nd half to present, his ERA is over 5. End of story.

    And in that same time frame, he has walked less per inning than any other Sox starter. What made you switch stats? Oh... I know... you got schooled and moved the gold posts again.

    You change the time frame to fit your position, but look at Dice-K since mid-2009.

    You said Wake walks alot- he does not (compared to all other Sox starters in your narrow time frame).

    I never talked about Dice-K's walked until you said Wake walks more than him. You spout lies, and when we confront you, you say we are bashing Dice-K. Then you call anyone who cstches you in your lies a racist.
     
    Some of us love all our players and cheer for all to do well. Other wish for bad luck on their despised players.

    Sad.

    Clown.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    In Response to Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery : I agree......... I am far more concerned with the inability for the Sox to be able to push even a single run across the plate late in a game than I am with the pitching........  I was not counting on much from Dice K this season in the first place. But, I was expecting our offsense to be able to consistently support our pitchers.  I am not as impressed with games we win 14-3...... as I am concerned about games we lose 3-2.......... This is not a new problem for the Sox, we have had this problem for many years now.  It's well beyond time someone asks why we can't do what the Yankees do almost every game.... Score what ever they need to score to win a game from the 7th inning on.
    Posted by tetonman50[/QUOTE]I wish to pint out that last year the RS had the #2 offense in the AL but were 9th in runs allowed with 4.19 ERA. So far this year they are 3rd in runs scored but 10th in runs allowed with a 4.17 ERA.

    The pitching was the greater issue in 2010 and so far in 2011 it is again. The years the RS have won it all it was the pitching. The most offense generated by any team in last decade was by the 2003 RS and they lost in ALCS because of their pitching.

    The pitching is the key, the RS will score a lot of runs. As for the NYY they have only won the whole thing twice since 2000 and both times it was their pitching.  
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    This season he has sample size that is so small and includes weeks between mop-up duty and most of his few starts.

    Goalpost move: softy tries to convince the board that Oki has value based on a couple good innings pitched. Oki's pitched 8.1 innings and has 5 of 7 good outings. He has 5 BBs. He has a 1.67 WHIP since the start of 2010.

    Wake has pitched 43 IP, but his sample size is too small? He has 11 BBs. His WHIP since his back surgery is 1.31. Dice-K's is 1.39.

    WHIP is more important for pen arms, and we both know Wastefield isn't any pen arm.

    Goalpost move: I have used the WHIP argument over and over with you, but you cling to ERA, especially with Wake.

    Here's (IP: 8+ IP listed) WHIP as relievers in 2011:
    (27.1) Bard    0.915
    (23.2) Paps    1.099
    (20.2) Albers 1.355
    (17.1) Aceve  1.038
    (15.0) Wheel  1.600
    (13.1) Wake   1.125
    (12.1) Atch     1.459
    (8.1)  Oki         1.440
    (8.0) Hill          0.075

    Here's the starter numbers in 2011:
    (75.1) Lester       3.94  (1.354 WHIP)
    (70.0) Beckett     1.80  (1.014)
    (66.0) Buchholtz 3.41  (1.318)
    (39.1) Lackey      8.01  (1.805)
    (36.1) Dice-K       4.95  (1.404)
    (29.2) Wakefield 4.25  (1.213)
    (16.0) Aceves      4.50  (1.438)

    Overall Wake is 3rd on the team in WHIP this year behind Beckett and Bard. 

    11 out of the top 14 IP guys this year have a worse WHIP.
    5 of the top 13 IP guys on the Sox this year have a worse ERA.

    Yes, it is a small sample size this year, but it was this year you promised he would implode and be horrible. Yet, he is outshining the guys you pumped up all spring.

    He's got the 5th best WHIP on the team as a reliever, with a respectable 1.123 number.

    He's got the 2nd best WHIP of all Sox starters. He has the 4th best starter ERA this year (ahead of Aceves, and not including all the inherited runs the pen has let score and the bad ump call in his last start). 

    WAR is meaningless when dealing with the retread line for bottom of the barrel starters, unless you are in San Diego, perhaps.

    WAR is more useful than the GG panel voting on players they never see play and voting the GG to players that only play 28 games at that position.

    ERA over the equivalent of 2 seasons is a starter measure of import.

    Ready for next goalpost move: Going by your own newly set criteria: 2 years and WHIP as a reliever:
    Wake in 2011: 1.123
    Wake in 2010: 1.040

    In 2010, 11 pitchers had over 10 IP as a reliever, only 1 reliever had a better WHIP than Wake last year (Bard 1.004).
     
    D Bard (74.2 ) 1.004
    Papelbon (67) 1.269
    Atchison  (57) 1.298
    Okajima   (46) 1.717
    MDC          (44) 1.386
    R. Ram ( 42.1) 1.299
    Wake       (25)  1.040

    Cue goalpost move: new criteria or new time frame.


    Wastefield's ERA is over 5, during that time.

    His ERA is 5.11 since the back surgery. It is 4.89 the last 365 days with a 1.270 WHIP.

    Because Wastefield would refuse a AAA assigment if he cleared waivers, he would clear them for sure.

    I sure wish we had brought up Miller or ...

    That should tell you what stage of the career Wastefield is in. He is hanging around for two reasons:

    1. He's popular with most Red Sox fans.

    I wonder why? Cause he's white, right?

    2. Ownership and Management entertains notions that this roster squatter can remove Roger Clemens from the team wins record book. That's alright, but removing Cy Young isn't alright. In reality, none of it is alright. Any other pitcher who pitching like Wastefield since 2009 second half would be long gone and standing in line with Millwood.

    Why pick the second half of 2009 and totally write off his best 50 game starting stretch of his career from 2008 (5th in AL in WHIP) to Jily 1st 2009? Could it be your cherry-picking  goalpost moving has gone absurd?

    If management wanted Wake to beak the record, they would bring him in in the 4th inning of blowouts. They never expected him to start as many games as he might this year.

    Own up to your colossal mistakes this spring: Wake, Jed and Jake are killing your fragile ego.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    My heart says go with Wake as the # 5, assuming Lackey comes back soon.  BUT!!!  The club does so with the understanding that they MUST have possible LONG relief at the redy (Aceves???) when Wake pitches.  LOOK!  I love Wake!  Huge fan!  BUT.... Sometimes the knuckleball just isn't dancing!  Those occasions are generally fairly recognizable early on...  I'm not knocking Wake, sometimes it's as simple as the weather!  So.......  With limited options, this seems to be the most likely scenario to me???  Personally speaking....  This is a much better scenario than dealing with Dice-K!  I'm just sooooo over the guy!  My opinion??  This is the SAME lingering injury that Dice-K sustained at the World Classic in 2009!  Which by the way, he lied about.  2010???  He lied again!  Sorry!!!!  I don't respect that!  OK..... Sorry!  Let me rephrase that!  He told the Japanese media about "an injury" that OUR STAFF NEVER HEARD ABOUT!   Must I use the Euphemism "obfuscation????????"  Happy?  :)
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    Anyway.......   Let's go Wake!!!!  Strap it on Pal.....  WE REALLY NEED YOU!!  :)

    In fact.....  We will probably need you as the #4 starter given the Lackey situation? 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    redsoxdirtdog, don't fastball, curveball, and slider picters have days that thei pitches just ain't workin either? Wake's been "on" or "decent" about 70-73% o his starts the past few years. That's better than the average ML pitchers, so when I har "he has a lot of bad games", relatively speaking, but in actuality he does not.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    In Response to Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery:
    [QUOTE]redsoxdirtdog, don't fastball, curveball, and slider picters have days that thei pitches just ain't workin either? Wake's been "on" or "decent" about 70-73% o his starts the past few years. That's better than the average ML pitchers, so when I har "he has a lot of bad games", relatively speaking, but in actuality he does not.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Hey Moonslav59 :)

    I agree!  Wake IS as dependable as ANY 4 or 5 starter out there.  I agree with the stats etc....  The only problem I see with Wake, AS A HUGE WAKE FAN I might add, is that when it's "floating" in there?????  it can look a bit TOO much like T-ball....  In some ways, Wake is more reliable than most pitchers....  When it's on, he's great!  When it's not happening, it's fairly easy to see & deal with?????  Just my take.  Either way, I'm totally comfortable with Wake any day of the week!  Pissing off SoldRed / GM is just an added bonus :) :)
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    ...it can look a bit TOO much like T-ball...

    ...and therein lies the reason why so many (not you) dislike Wake and get frustrated when he gets lit up. It looks like slow pitch softball, but get up and try to hit a knuckleball at that speed. If catchers can't even catch it when it is dancing right, that shows how nasty it can be to a hitter.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    To J-BAY &ZAC: I'm sorry if you misunderstood my 100 mil. "Dice insurance" post. It was a tongue n' cheek response to Softy's "Wake is Dice-K insurance".

    My meaning was that if Dice had been paid Wake's  salary, he never would have had the perks/liberties awarded him.
    He, like Wake, would have done BP time when ineffective, or been shuffled back and forth. But the 100 mil investment kept Dice on the yearly DL-for-babies who don't adhere to team regiment in regards to training and pitching approach.

    The posting fee and the entire contract, which is heavier at the end, is gone. Only Borass and Dice made out. Henry got screwed.
    Sorry for the mis-understanding.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from billsrul. Show billsrul's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    In Response to Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery:
    [QUOTE]redsoxdirtdog, don't fastball, curveball, and slider picters have days that thei pitches just ain't workin either? Wake's been "on" or "decent" about 70-73% o his starts the past few years. That's better than the average ML pitchers, so when I har "he has a lot of bad games", relatively speaking, but in actuality he does not.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I think we're in agreement that Wake has less bad games than most.  My fear of wake is two-fold: 1.  (I don't know this for a fact)  Are Wake's bad games worst than other pitchers' bad games.  And secondly, is there any way to identify early when Wake doesn't have it on a given day?  (I feel this is very difficult to do because Wake can hae a bad inning and then bounce back for the rest of the game, just like many pitchers....).  He's just a weird guy since he's a knuckleballer, I've never felt like he's an easy guy to "figure out"
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    Bill, that has to do with a person's own level of game security.
    It's more on the fan/manager than anything else.
    I'm willing to bet Wake has as many if not more clean innings than most of his peers. He 'loses it'  like another pitcher. Things to watch:

    1) He gets behind hitters. That forces him to throw his curve/fastball until he regains the feel. Conventional pitchers do the same thing when they can't command their bread n' butter pitch.

    2)
    Hitters start to square him up. It means his dancer lacks movement. Same thing when a conventional pitcher loses his depth of break or velocity. Usually happens when he's getting tired. Or when hitters get a juicy count and Wake comes in with his "heat".

    Wake throws two types of knucklers. The one with no spin is harder to control. It's like Paps throwing his splitter. It's used to put hitters away, and is applied when ahead in the count, unless he's really in a groove. It's his K pitch.

    His other knuckler has minimal rotation and is more easily controlled. It's used to get ahead of hitters. It's not as difficult to square up. It results in many fly-outs.
    When he can't command it, that's when he has issues, because he can't control either one at that point. And has a limited safety net. But he can get it back just as quickly.

    A conventional pitcher has more back-up and thus a larger net, but they don't get it back as quickly as Wake, if at all. It's a trade-off of equal proportions. But because Knuckle-ballers are a rare breed, fans aren't used to this trade-off.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Only-In-America. Show Only-In-America's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    In Response to Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery:
    [QUOTE]Bill , that has to do with a person's own level of game security. It's more on the fan/manager than anything else. I'm willing to bet Wake has as many if not more clean innings than most of his peers. He 'loses it'  like another pitcher. Things to watch: 1) He gets behind hitters. That forces him to throw his curve/fastball until he regains the feel. Conventional pitchers do the same thing when they can't command their bread n' butter pitch. 2) Hitters start to square him up. It means his dancer lacks movement. Same thing when a conventional pitcher loses his depth of break or velocity. Usually happens when he's getting tired. Or when hitters get a juicy count and Wake comes in with his "heat". Wake throws two types of knucklers. The one with no spin is harder to control. It's like Paps throwing his splitter. It's used to put hitters away, and is applied when ahead in the count, unless he's really in a groove. It's his K pitch. His other knuckler has minimal rotation and is more easily controlled. It's used to get ahead of hitters. It's not as difficult to square up. It results in many fly-outs. When he can't command it, that's when he has issues, because he can't control either one at that point. And has a limited safety net. But he can get it back just as quickly. A conventional pitcher has more back-up and thus a larger net, but they don't get it back as quickly as Wake, if at all. It's a trade-off of equal proportions. But because Knuckle-ballers are a rare breed, fans aren't used to this trade-off.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE] ACTUALLY... BURRITO IS STILL WAITING FOR YOUR REPLY.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery


    To J-BAY &ZAC: I'm sorry if you misunderstood my 100 mil. "Dice insurance" post. It was a tongue n' cheek response to Softy's "Wake is Dice-K insurance".


    thanks harness, we were having a discussion else where if he was insured,

    which he very well might be , but I knew / thought  the 100 mil was way off

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackyldo. Show jackyldo's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    Dice K handled this the same way he has his entire career with the Red Sox  -- on his own ..

    Going back to Japan to rest and get an opinion and then with Boras  seeing Dr. Yocum and informing the team  of his plans.

    No trip back to Boston  to meet with the team, list oprions and tell his preference.

    He has been  so up in down since 2009, there is little to be lost here.

    Good thing for the Sox they get insurance and get his salary paid for.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    I think we're in agreement that Wake has less bad games than most.  My fear of wake is two-fold: 1.  (I don't know this for a fact)  Are Wake's bad games worst than other pitchers' bad games.  And secondly, is there any way to identify early when Wake doesn't have it on a given day?  (I feel this is very difficult to do because Wake can hae a bad inning and then bounce back for the rest of the game, just like many pitchers....).  He's just a weird guy since he's a knuckleballer, I've never felt like he's an easy guy to "figure out"

    This is a fair criticism and take. I do tink Tito leaves Wake in longer than others when he looks bad, maybe in hopes he can turn it around. He does have more games where he lets up 7-9 runs. I hink other starters are pulled earlier. For this reason, I think his ERA is always inflated and not a true measure of his value as a about a 70% effective pitcher after the age of 40.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    In Response to Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery:
    [QUOTE]To J-BAY & ZAC: I'm sorry if you misunderstood my 100 mil. "Dice insurance" post. It was a tongue n' cheek response to Softy's " Wake is Dice-K insurance". thanks harness, we were having a discussion else where if he was insured, which he very well might be , but I knew / thought  the 100 mil was way off
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]

    "we were having a discussion elsewhere if he was insured......."
    Zac, when I said I had heard the same,  peter abraham reported Dice -K is insured for a "substantial amount" and "John Henry, enjoy the insurance money"  it may be for the amount dice-k was to be paid for services not rendered.  maybe it will cover the ineffective starts too, in which case, it will be a substancial amountWink why would a million be way off? if someone can insure their legs for a million, why not an arm?Tongue out
     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery


    why would a million be way off? if someone can insure their legs for a million, why not an arm?

    you  said 100 mil, and implied it would cover the posting fee

    all that was kind a of ridiculous

    PA said ''"substantial amount"

    15 mil is a "substantial amount" and probably is all they will get
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    actually i didnt say a million zac, harness did, which would have covered the posting fee and contract. i'm not so sure it's "kind of ridiculous". i worked in insurance for 25 years. you can insure anything to value or above, if you're willing to pay the premium. insurance could have been taken on the entire amount of the contract, including the posting fee/perks, as it was part of obtaining his services. as with a car, it's value would decrease as years were serviced, depending how the insurance policy was written
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    actually i didnt say a million zac

    I know that

    this is what you said





     100 million insurance policy, Henry will recover the posting fee and dice-k's contract. Sianara



     i'm not so sure its "kind of ridiculous". i worked in insurance for 25 years. you can insure anything to value or above, if you're willing to pay the premium. insurance could have been taken on the entire amount of the contract, including the posting fee/perks, as it was part of obtaining his services. as with a car, it's value would decrease as years were serviced, depending how the insurance policy was written



    could be, things change

      but for now I'll stick with
    "kind of ridiculous".







    MLB Teams Insure Long-Term Deals To Protect From Player Injury

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    oh sorry zac, working and posting, but i'm pretty sure everyone, including you, knew what i meant.  i didnt say 100 million, Harness did, which I stated in my response to your request for a link, albeit kidding, which neither of us knew at the time.  my point was, if so, the amount of 100 million would  have recovered the posting fee and dice k's contract. "the deductible, like the amount of the coverage, can be adjusted depending on what the club is willing to pay" so it may not be "kinda ridiculous" after all. regardless, no one going to holding a benefit for JH anytime soon
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from billsrul. Show billsrul's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    In Response to Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery:
    [QUOTE]Bill , that has to do with a person's own level of game security. It's more on the fan/manager than anything else. I'm willing to bet Wake has as many if not more clean innings than most of his peers. He 'loses it'  like another pitcher. Things to watch: 1) He gets behind hitters. That forces him to throw his curve/fastball until he regains the feel. Conventional pitchers do the same thing when they can't command their bread n' butter pitch. 2) Hitters start to square him up. It means his dancer lacks movement. Same thing when a conventional pitcher loses his depth of break or velocity. Usually happens when he's getting tired. Or when hitters get a juicy count and Wake comes in with his "heat". Wake throws two types of knucklers. The one with no spin is harder to control. It's like Paps throwing his splitter. It's used to put hitters away, and is applied when ahead in the count, unless he's really in a groove. It's his K pitch. His other knuckler has minimal rotation and is more easily controlled. It's used to get ahead of hitters. It's not as difficult to square up. It results in many fly-outs. When he can't command it, that's when he has issues, because he can't control either one at that point. And has a limited safety net. But he can get it back just as quickly. A conventional pitcher has more back-up and thus a larger net, but they don't get it back as quickly as Wake, if at all. It's a trade-off of equal proportions. But because Knuckle-ballers are a rare breed, fans aren't used to this trade-off.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    First, I didn't realize that Wake actually throws two different knucklers.  Nice tidbit there Harness.

    However, I would say the problem with Wake is that his bread/butter pitch is much more important to him than many "conventional" pitchers.  Wake is similar (though actually the direct opposite) to a pitcher who has a good fastball and little off-speed stuff.  The question is, do you pull him once you think he's lost it?  And how long do you wait for him to try and "get it back".  Here's my question to you (since you seem to really love Wakefield):  If you are Francona, how would you manage Wakefield?  Would he be on a set pitch count every start?  Would it be until he loses it after a certain point? 

    For the record, I'm not anti-Wakefield and I think he's a nice fit on this team as a number 5/6 man.  I just think he is an average-to-slightly below average, old, injury-prone starting pitcher.  Most teams have one of these guys in their rotation, and on many teams he'd be a No. 4 starter, if not a No. 3.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxSoldRed. Show SoxSoldRed's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    Whatever team would offer trade value for sending Wastefield to a No. 3 or No. 4 starter, I'll personally pay his first class ticket out of town!!!!!!!!!!!!

    No other worthless pen arm and months of de facto DL waiting on another DL spot starter in history could go nearly 2 full seasons with an ERA over 5 and still be smiling about a permanent entitlement to the active roster.

    I hope for one single reason that Wastefield doesn't put his name above Cy Young, and that's because a side show squatting on the active roster for years doesn't deserve it. Everything about it is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Stop using the roster for sideshows and popular washed up veterans that fans identify with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery



    Whatever team would offer trade value for sending Wastefield to a No. 3 or No. 4 starter, I'll personally pay his first class ticket out of town!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I'm sure the plane fair is the only obstacle.

    No other worthless pen arm and months of de facto DL waiting on another DL spot starter in history could go nearly 2 full seasons with an ERA over 5 and still be smiling about a permanent entitlement to the active roster.

    If his arm is worthless, what is the value of 8 guys with higher ERAs this year, or the 14 guys with a higher WHIP.

    I hope for one single reason that Wastefield doesn't put his name above Cy Young, and that's because a side show squatting on the active roster for years doesn't deserve it. Everything about it is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Everything about your bashing posts are wrong.

    Stop using the roster for sideshows and popular washed up veterans that fans identify with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Stop over-using exclamation points...

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Its Official: Dice K will undergo tommy john surgery

    Bill: To be frank (not literally), I'd manage Wake as a starter similar to how Tito does. I think he get's a good read on him. He's seen him for over 7 years!
    What I didn't care for was when Tito used bottom level BP depth last year in several games Wake pitched where the team had a chance to win.

    In similar situations with Lester/Buch, even down by a run, he'd use Bard/Paps/etc.

    But I'd definitely use Wake differently out of the pen. He's be used with the same consistency he as that of the others. Wake has what amounts to an unhittable pitch at times. And this weapon is useless in scrub BP roles.

    In the same fashion, Tito did not recognize Hill's worth until the boat sailed. I think he blew 3-4 games using lesser when Hill would have been a great compliment to Bard. I said as much 3 weeks ago.



    After reading this thread, I must be careful how to retort to Softlaw's idiocy.
    Anything can be taken out of context and thus mis-understood.
    Perhaps I should have said Wake's age is the Softone's insurance...
     

Share