J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential


    They missed the playoffs once in the 4 years Drew's been here. He played a signficant role in their post season successes. He might have been capable of more, he might not be worth his contract, but he doesn't hurt the team in any way and I don't understand why people are still complaining about him. You're not the one paying him. It's not like he's in San Deigo and his $14 million/season is crippling the team. He plays a role and contributes to this team, the only problem is some fans don't feel it's worth the money he makes for doing it.
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]Drew apologists cling to his playoff home run as though it's a life preserver and they're on the Titanic. In reality, Drew may well be the most overrated player in MLB history, certainly in Red Sox history. The Tepid One was once voted overwhelmingly - by other ballplayers - as the one player in MLB who gets the least out of the most ability. NOBODY in Los Angeles was sorry to see him opt out of his contract and NOBODY was interested in giving him a new, big money deal....except Theo. As for the metric dream weavers - spare me your contrived, fabricated, imaginary "stats" - premier athletes produce, period. Drew's career numbers are best described as pedestrian, certainly not worthy of the adoration Mr Epstein displays for him.
    Posted by davetheknave[/QUOTE]

    The problem right off the bat is your term Drew Apologists. I was never a big Drew fan, but I find myself defending him because the critics go over the top.

    Is he overpaid? OK, sure why not. Others have mentioned that it was the market rate at the time, but sure, I'll go along with the overpaid.

    Has he underachieved? Based on his talent, yeah, I won't argue that point.

    Is he frustrating? Sure. Getting on base is fine, but when there are guys on base, maybe, just maybe, it's better to try to put the ball in play to advance that could bring home a runner with a groundout or sacrifice fly than working a walk, although a walk is certainly preferable to a strikeout. And he does seem to look at too many third strikes -- especially last year.

    HOWEVER ...

    Admitting the above does not mean he hasn't been a decent player in his first four years with the team. While his critics like to say how he often opts out of games with "phantom" injuries, the fact is, he did play around 140 games in three of the four years and missed significant time with an injury just once.

    And consider, he averaged in his first four seasons:
    131 games, 79 runs, 27 doubles, 19 homers, 66 RBIs, .270 BA, .377 OBP, .476 SLG, .853 OPS.

    His predecessor, Trot Nixon, a fan-favorite, averaged (excluding the two years he was up for a cup of coffee):
    121 games, 68 runs, 25 doubles, 17 homers, 65 RBIs, .278 BA, .367 OBP, .479 SLG, .846 OPS.

    Everyone seems to think that Nixon was a productive player. So take salary out of the mix, the fact is Drew was just as productive (and more durable) as Nixon.

    So it's two seperate issues.

    Is Drew overpaid and did he underachieve? Let's say yes.

    Was he a productive player? If the answer is yes for Nixon, then it has to be yes for Drew.
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]Drew apologists cling to his playoff home run as though it's a life preserver and they're on the Titanic. In reality, Drew may well be the most overrated player in MLB history, certainly in Red Sox history. The Tepid One was once voted overwhelmingly - by other ballplayers - as the one player in MLB who gets the least out of the most ability. NOBODY in Los Angeles was sorry to see him opt out of his contract and NOBODY was interested in giving him a new, big money deal....except Theo. As for the metric dream weavers - spare me your contrived, fabricated, imaginary "stats" - premier athletes produce, period. Drew's career numbers are best described as pedestrian, certainly not worthy of the adoration Mr Epstein displays for him.
    Posted by davetheknave[/QUOTE]

    So, knave, with the advantage of hindsight, what choice would you have made for a Red Sox rightfielder during the 06/07 offseason? 
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    More like the poster child for wimps.  Can't play through an ounce of pain which sadly is the case for most ballplayers.  As former Yankee pitcher David Wells so aptly put it, "I'm not an athlete, I'm a baseball player."  All baseball players should be forced to sit in the front row at a national hockey league game.  Maybe then they'd learn what is it is to be real men!
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    Roy said it best.  Many of us find ourself's defending Drew because the haters go way over the top, as if this guy bats .200 every year and only hits 2 or 3 homeruns. 

    You also call him mediocure, well lets take a look:

    The Avg MLB AVG yearly is between .260-.270 J.D. drew is a career .279 hitter.

    The Avg amount of HR hit by a player is around 10, J.D. Drew hits between 20-25 every year. 

    On Avg. only 23% of MLB players have an OBP above .380, J.D. Drew has an OBP career wise of .386.  And even though his OBP has trended down his last couple years due to age decline, he still gets on base above the MLB average. 

    If you ask me getting on base is one of the most important aspects of the game along side, good pitching and defense. Getting on base = scoring runs. which is why J.D. drew has an 162 game average of 99 runs scored.

    J.D. Drews defense has always been regarded as above average in the outfield with an above average arm.

    We can throw stats around all day but the point is J.D. Drew is NOT AN AVERAGE player.  He may be average today, but he's also in the last year of his contract and likely to retire this year.  J.D. Drew is no Albert Pujols, or Alex Rodriguez but he doesn't get paid like one either and the Drew bashing always goes over the top which is why the rational fans always find themselves defending him.


     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]In Response to J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential : The problem right off the bat is your term Drew Apologists. I was never a big Drew fan, but I find myself defending him because the critics go over the top. Is he overpaid? OK, sure why not. Others have mentioned that it was the market rate at the time, but sure, I'll go along with the overpaid. Has he underachieved? Based on his talent, yeah, I won't argue that point. Is he frustrating? Sure. Getting on base is fine, but when there are guys on base, maybe, just maybe, it's better to try to put the ball in play to advance that could bring home a runner with a groundout or sacrifice fly than working a walk, although a walk is certainly preferable to a strikeout. And he does seem to look at too many third strikes -- especially last year. HOWEVER ... Admitting the above does not mean he hasn't been a decent player in his first four years with the team. While his critics like to say how he often opts out of games with "phantom" injuries, the fact is, he did play around 140 games in three of the four years and missed significant time with an injury just once. And consider, he averaged in his first four seasons: 131 games, 79 runs, 27 doubles, 19 homers, 66 RBIs, .270 BA, .377 OBP, .476 SLG, .853 OPS. His predecessor, Trot Nixon, a fan-favorite, averaged (excluding the two years he was up for a cup of coffee): 121 games, 68 runs, 25 doubles, 17 homers, 65 RBIs, .278 BA, .367 OBP, .479 SLG, .846 OPS. Everyone seems to think that Nixon was a productive player. So take salary out of the mix, the fact is Drew was just as productive (and more durable) as Nixon. So it's two seperate issues. Is Drew overpaid and did he underachieve? Let's say yes. Was he a productive player? If the answer is yes for Nixon, then it has to be yes for Drew.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]


    I was gonna write something myself, but I couldn't improve on this, Roy. So I'll just say "ditto."
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    JD was worth the signing.  He has been great when it mattered.  He will play a major role in the playoff again this year.

    Sweetest swing in the majors, great RF'er, with a good strong arm.
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]In Response to J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential : The problem right off the bat is your term Drew Apologists. I was never a big Drew fan, but I find myself defending him because the critics go over the top. Is he overpaid? OK, sure why not. Others have mentioned that it was the market rate at the time, but sure, I'll go along with the overpaid. Has he underachieved? Based on his talent, yeah, I won't argue that point. Is he frustrating? Sure. Getting on base is fine, but when there are guys on base, maybe, just maybe, it's better to try to put the ball in play to advance that could bring home a runner with a groundout or sacrifice fly than working a walk, although a walk is certainly preferable to a strikeout. And he does seem to look at too many third strikes -- especially last year. HOWEVER ... Admitting the above does not mean he hasn't been a decent player in his first four years with the team. While his critics like to say how he often opts out of games with "phantom" injuries, the fact is, he did play around 140 games in three of the four years and missed significant time with an injury just once. And consider, he averaged in his first four seasons: 131 games, 79 runs, 27 doubles, 19 homers, 66 RBIs, .270 BA, .377 OBP, .476 SLG, .853 OPS. His predecessor, Trot Nixon, a fan-favorite, averaged (excluding the two years he was up for a cup of coffee): 121 games, 68 runs, 25 doubles, 17 homers, 65 RBIs, .278 BA, .367 OBP, .479 SLG, .846 OPS. Everyone seems to think that Nixon was a productive player. So take salary out of the mix, the fact is Drew was just as productive (and more durable) as Nixon. So it's two seperate issues. Is Drew overpaid and did he underachieve? Let's say yes. Was he a productive player? If the answer is yes for Nixon, then it has to be yes for Drew.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Great stuff roy, but it's difficult to subtract the cost from the equation.  Yes, he's been productive, but we may/could have gotten the same type of production for a lot less money, thus freeing up the $ for other team needs.  I don't blame Drew for signing the contract, but some culpability must be put on Epstein and team management - because I'm reasonably sure they thought they were going to get more bang for their big bucks.  And us obsessive fans (yup, including me), get frustrated seeing him make 14M for what we paid Trot (I think 8M) less to do.
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential



    At least this is JD Drew's last year. 

    JD Drew has been a low maintenance and positive team player.  The complete opposite of Manny. 
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential : Great stuff roy, but it's difficult to subtract the cost from the equation.  Yes, he's been productive, but we may/could have gotten the same type of production for a lot less money, thus freeing up the $ for other team needs.  I don't blame Drew for signing the contract, but some culpability must be put on Epstein and team management - because I'm reasonably sure they thought they were going to get more bang for their big bucks.  And us obsessive fans (yup, including me), get frustrated seeing him make 14M for what we paid Trot (I think 8M) less to do.
    Posted by gr82bme[/QUOTE]

    Drew's career averages before coming to Boston were 286/393/512/904.
    Drew's up-to-date averages with Boston are 268/376/468/844.

    I would guess they were probably hoping he would maintain his career average 900 OPS for the first 3 years of the deal, then drop down to an OPS of 800-850 the last 2 years.  Just a guess.

    I think it's fair to say he has fallen short of their projections on offense.  But not by a huge amount.



     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential : Great stuff roy, but it's difficult to subtract the cost from the equation.  Yes, he's been productive, but we may/could have gotten the same type of production for a lot less money, thus freeing up the $ for other team needs.  I don't blame Drew for signing the contract, but some culpability must be put on Epstein and team management - because I'm reasonably sure they thought they were going to get more bang for their big bucks.  And us obsessive fans (yup, including me), get frustrated seeing him make 14M for what we paid Trot (I think 8M) less to do.
    Posted by gr82bme[/QUOTE]

    That's absolutely true, but on the other hand, it's not our money. While it's reasonable to say he underachieved and even point out whatever other flaws we feel his game has, you have to concede that he has produced at a decent level, taking the money out of the equation.


     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    his bat and placid attitude have been less than inspiring - but a lot of folks overlook his contributions in the field...he really is a strong defensive player...as far as $$$ goes, they are all overpaid...I teach and just recently passed the one million doillars mark after 22 years of teaching...lol
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]Drew apologists cling to his playoff home run as though it's a life preserver and they're on the Titanic. In reality, Drew may well be the most overrated player in MLB history, certainly in Red Sox history. The Tepid One was once voted overwhelmingly - by other ballplayers - as the one player in MLB who gets the least out of the most ability. NOBODY in Los Angeles was sorry to see him opt out of his contract and NOBODY was interested in giving him a new, big money deal....except Theo. As for the metric dream weavers - spare me your contrived, fabricated, imaginary "stats" - premier athletes produce, period. Drew's career numbers are best described as pedestrian, certainly not worthy of the adoration Mr Epstein displays for him.
    Posted by davetheknave[/QUOTE]

    This is just another of the endless JD Drew bash threads.  OK.  I'll play the game.  Say you are 100% right with everything you say.  My question is, what's with the timing of this?  The Sox are rolling whether JD is in the lineup or not.  Pitching, timely hitting, and defense wins.  Do really mean to tell me that JD is not a competent #7 hitter in the lineup and excellent right fielder?  You mean the Sox are losing games because of JD Drew right now?  Does every position have to produce superstar stats?  Finally, what is the adoration you speak of?  Drew got paid the going market for his skillset in the year he signed the deal.  Adoration is something entirely different than making a business decision that was approved by ownership.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ct-pitcher. Show ct-pitcher's posts

    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    Several here refer to player salaries not being of our concern because it isn't our money.

    Red Sox fans pay the highest ticket prices in MLB. To suggest that between those ticket prices that WE pay, the concessions that WE buy, and cable tv bills that WE pay and on and on...

    It very much is OUR money that these players get paid.
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    ct-pitch

    i might go to one or two games a year - its too steep for me....and i get nesn in my cable package which i consider a bargain...trust me, the Sox are not paying these salaries with my money...but I get your point...btw what a nice avatar!
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]Several here refer to player salaries not being of our concern because it isn't our money. Red Sox fans pay the highest ticket prices in MLB. To suggest that between those ticket prices that WE pay, the concessions that WE buy, and cable tv bills that WE pay and on and on... It very much is OUR money that these players get paid.
    Posted by ct-pitcher[/QUOTE]

    No one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to go the games.

    It's supply and demand. Small ballpark, high demand, high prices. It's called capitalism.

    If you're going to btch about the cost, don't go. It's simple.

    If I perform a service for somebody and they're willing to pay me a high amount for that service, it doesn't mean they have any right in complaining if I squander that money.

    So no, it's not your money. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Modano09. Show Modano09's posts

    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential


    Here's my theory on money in baseball. Drew himself may not be an example of this, as I didn't follow him closely before his Dodger days...

    Players come into the league in their entry level contracts. Then, once they produce, the team either immediately extends them at a price likely lower that they'd get if they went for free agency, or they use arbitration to hold onto them without giving them the big money, long term deal. After those years, they become a free agent and will get the long term deal, which is likely to pay them more than they'll be worth in the latter years of their career, effectively "making up" for how "under-paid" they were when they were producing at a high level earlier in their career. If not as if, say, the Sox are going to go to Dustin Pedroia and give him back pay to make up for how under-paid he was compared to his stats in his first couple of seasons. Players tend to be over-paid in the last couple of years of their career, as they're under-paid in the beginning.

    Drew may not fit into this category as I have no idea what he was making in Atlanta or LA, but that's why I don't have a problem with players wanting to get the most they can when free agency comes around. It's not like the Sox are the only team to do it, and if anything they try to avoid it to frustrating degrees (Damon, taking apart the 2004 team, etc) at times, but 9 times out of 10 a player is going to get what he's looking for somewhere, and if that player is someone you value and feel you need on your team, you have to pay it.

    To pass on Drew, would mean they need a RF, and a 3/4/5 type hitter. I can't remember who was available that off season, but what if is nobody who's both that type of fielder and that type of hitter? Then you have to find two players to fill those individual roles. Which takes a roster spot away from someone else. Which might actually cost them a good player if they have to do it via trade. Which means someone who was part of a WS winning team in 2007 isn't there, or someone who's part of their success since isn't there. So maybe there is no 2007 WS....and this is all so we can spend somewhere less than $14 million/season. By the time all the moves are made they might only be saving $3 or $4 million by not having Drew...

    So, aside from his on field performance, which I think is fine....Signing Drew saved them from having to make other roster moves, which could have cost them talent or more money combined than they spent on him.

    If there was an example of them not being able to make a move to improve the team and they told us "We're over paying Drew, so we're financially handcuffed right now", then I'd be annoyed. But that's not the case. 

    I hate Lackey and think he's grossly overpaid, and I'd like to see him gone sooner rather than later...but if he can come back and be a solid #4 starter, fine. If they're okay paying him that money to be a #4, that's okay with me, as long as they're not passing on other moves because of the money they committed to him.
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential : No one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to go the games. It's supply and demand. Small ballpark, high demand, high prices. It's called capitalism. If you're going to btch about the cost, don't go. It's simple. If I perform a service for somebody and they're willing to pay me a high amount for that service, it doesn't mean they have any right in complaining if I squander that money. So no, it's not your money. 
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]


    Congratulations for being the winner of the "Missed the Entire Point" of the post award today.

    Let's assume, for the moment, that english is your first language.  Using small words so you can follow, my point was on the issue of whether player's salaries come from fan purchases from the team or not. Follow so far?  Reaching into the economics of the team, which you appear not to understand, the team earns income from fan purchases. Hence, now stay with me here, the player salaries do come from our purchases, therefore it is "our" money the players get paid.

    You obviously have no understanding of the first post and therefore, not likely of this one either. Try doing a little research on the relative success or failure of sports franchises, or any business, that has no customers - versus one that has customers [i.e., fans in this case]. 

     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential : Congratulations for being the winner of the "Missed the Entire Point" of the post award today. Let's assume, for the moment, that english is your first language.  Using small words so you can follow, my point was on the issue of whether player's salaries come from fan purchases from the team or not. Follow so far?  Reaching into the economics of the team, which you appear not to understand, the team earns income from fan purchases. Hence, now stay with me here, the player salaries do come from our purchases, therefore it is "our" money the players get paid. You obviously have no understanding of the first post and therefore, not likely of this one either. Try doing a little research on the relative success or failure of sports franchises, or any business, that has no customers - versus one that has customers [i.e., fans in this case]. 
    Posted by ct-pitcher[/QUOTE]


    Wow. That's one patronizing post just to show your own stupidity.

    This what you posted.

    It very much is OUR money that these players get paid.

    Oh really? Do you write a check from your own bank account to pay J.D. Drew. Of course a business gets its income from customers. Are you that stupid that you feel the need to write it just to remind yourself? But once a customer pays is money, IT'S NOT YOUR MONEY anymore. It's not a hard concept to grasp. You want a product. You have money. You give the business that money. It gives you the product.

    Now stay with me. After this transaction, it is the business' money -- not yours.

    And a business wouldn't have custmomers if it wasn't putting out a good product, and last I checked, the Sox have plenty of money.

    SEE THE POINT or is your head too far up your own AZZ.



     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential : Congratulations for being the winner of the "Missed the Entire Point" of the post award today. Let's assume, for the moment, that english is your first language.  Using small words so you can follow, my point was on the issue of whether player's salaries come from fan purchases from the team or not. Follow so far?  Reaching into the economics of the team, which you appear not to understand, the team earns income from fan purchases. Hence, now stay with me here, the player salaries do come from our purchases, therefore it is "our" money the players get paid. You obviously have no understanding of the first post and therefore, not likely of this one either. Try doing a little research on the relative success or failure of sports franchises, or any business, that has no customers - versus one that has customers [i.e., fans in this case]. 
    Posted by ct-pitcher[/QUOTE]

    I highly doubt, if JD Drew is traded tomorrow, ticket, concessions and merchandise prices are going to immediately decrease because they not longer have to pay for his contract....would you rather they take the money they make from the fans and pocket it?



     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from losmediasrojas. Show losmediasrojas's posts

    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential : Congratulations for being the winner of the "Missed the Entire Point" of the post award today. Let's assume, for the moment, that english is your first language.  Using small words so you can follow, my point was on the issue of whether player's salaries come from fan purchases from the team or not. Follow so far?  Reaching into the economics of the team, which you appear not to understand, the team earns income from fan purchases. Hence, now stay with me here, the player salaries do come from our purchases, therefore it is "our" money the players get paid. You obviously have no understanding of the first post and therefore, not likely of this one either. Try doing a little research on the relative success or failure of sports franchises, or any business, that has no customers - versus one that has customers [i.e., fans in this case]. 
    Posted by ct-pitcher[/QUOTE]

    You missed the point, not Roy.  He's saying if you don't like the product, you don't have to buy it.  Pretty simple. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from losmediasrojas. Show losmediasrojas's posts

    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential : I highly doubt, if JD Drew is traded tomorrow, ticket, concessions and merchandise prices are going to immediately decrease because they not longer have to pay for his contract....would you rather they take the money they make from the fans and pocket it?
    Posted by Modano09[/QUOTE]

    In Pittsburgh you don't have to complain about overpaid players. 
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    In Response to J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential:
    [QUOTE]Drew apologists cling to his playoff home run as though it's a life preserver and they're on the Titanic. In reality, Drew may well be the most overrated player in MLB history, certainly in Red Sox history. The Tepid One was once voted overwhelmingly - by other ballplayers - as the one player in MLB who gets the least out of the most ability. NOBODY in Los Angeles was sorry to see him opt out of his contract and NOBODY was interested in giving him a new, big money deal....except Theo. As for the metric dream weavers - spare me your contrived, fabricated, imaginary "stats" - premier athletes produce, period. Drew's career numbers are best described as pedestrian, certainly not worthy of the adoration Mr Epstein displays for him.
    Posted by davetheknave[/QUOTE]
    saw some thread here recently where they compared drew to TROT NIXON. i think thats the best comparison! drew is not mediocre for he's an A list defender. his obp is very much above average and he does see al lot of pitches. his a great rbi, slugging, hr guy or even a high average guy? no. he has underwhelmed but not mediocre. he's average! a pittsburgh or minnesota would be glad to have him. we certainly can do much better and will. ethier comes to mind.
     
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    Re: J D Drew - the poster child for mediocrity and wasted potential

    Yes there are Drew bashers and also Drew apologists but what is the motivation for a loyal Sox fan to come here and join the crowd of 1000 Drew bashers? Isn't it redundant and boring? What new do you bring to the table? Why not give us an update on the Pawsox or Seadogs instead?
     
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