Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]McCutchen is one of the ten.  He's right-handed, has a stronger arm, more power and is 3 years younger.  We already have Crawford, who can hit leadoff; there is a reason Red Sox rosters are never built around speed - RH power is more valuable in Fenway. Correct. The problem is that the Pirates are not a good match in a present day trade because McCutchen will be cheap for years to come. The Dodgers and Red Sox match up well. Dodgers are out of it for this year and have issues that won't be gone by next year. They have little chance to resign Kemp, and no chance to field a championship contender for 2012.  They can cut payroll for this year and the next two years and get Ellsbury through 2013 and add 2 or 3 talented young players to the mix that will cost almost nothing for the next 3 or 4 years. Ellsbury, one or two from Lowrie, Middlebrooks, Hassan or Brentz, plus Doubrant or Weiland should get it done. Ellsbury is a better fit in the NL and Kemp is a better fit in the AL. The Red Sox should be able to extend Kemp long term, keep 2011 payroll from going up much at all, and take care of a problem that has been a big problem since Manny aged out. The Red Sox aren't going to extend Ellsbury, and with Crawford, should not sign him as FA beyond 2013. They need a profile like Kemp, now, not waiting until he's traded to another big market and likely extended or getting in a bidding contest when he will leave the Dodgers at the end of next year, in the unlikely event the Dodgers don't deal him or extend him. Ellsbury's cost will go up for these last two years, as well, even with arbitration. Ellsbury has always been a popular fad, and Kemp would be less popular for reasons that all know. But the Red Sox for baseball reasons need a profile like Kemp, short and long term, not one like Ellsbury. Theo wrote Ellsbury's trade ticket when he foolishly paid 142M for Crawford. To pretend that dumpster diving is going to take care of the problem is quite naive. Should they pay Ellsbury the 12 to 14M over the next two years and dumpster dive for a RH OF'er, the problem will continue as that isn't addressing the problem. Promote Reddick, Kalish as additional depth, let the Dodgers pay the 12 to 14M for Ellsbury's last two years before FA, and apply those payments to Kemp's extension. Dodgers save a lot of money over the next 2.5 years, and Kemp will be gone after 1.5 years. The Dodgers will also get a solid young pitcher, and one or two solid young RH position players.
    Posted by billbyboy[/QUOTE]

    Billy, I was thinking of a three-way with the White Sox.  Send Ellsbury and Lowrie to CWS for Chris Sale & Gordon Beckham.  Then send Sale & Beckham to Pittsburgh along with (one of) a Kalish / Reddick / Lin to put the icing on the cake.

    This gives Pittsburgh 3 cost-controlled potential studs in place of one, and Neil Walker can move to 3rd, his natural position that's been a black-hole for the team.

    CWS gets a lefty (an island in an ocean of righties) lead-off man, so they can say bye-bye to the pitiful Juan Pierre and the worst CF in the game (Alex Rios) and Lowrie (when healthy) is a more than adequate replacement for Beckham, and in the best spot in the field (2B) for him to boot.

    The Sox get McCutchen at a time when I honestly think they are richer in talent than dollars.  They don't have to worry about extending him until guys like Lackey are off the books.

     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today. : Billy, I was thinking of a three-way with the White Sox.  Send Ellsbury and Lowrie to CWS for Chris Sale & Gordon Beckham.  Then send Sale & Beckham to Pittsburgh along with (one of) a Kalish / Reddick / Lin to put the icing on the cake. This gives Pittsburgh 3 cost-controlled potential studs in place of one, and Neil Walker can move to 3rd, his natural position that's been a black-hole for the team. CWS gets a lefty (an island in an ocean of righties) lead-off man, so they can say bye-bye to the pitiful Juan Pierre and the worst CF in the game (Alex Rios) and Lowrie (when healthy) is a more than adequate replacement for Beckham, and in the best spot in the field (2B) for him to boot. The Sox get McCutchen at a time when I honestly think they are richer in talent than dollars.  They don't have to worry about extending him until guys like Lackey are off the books.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    Didn't you already mention this about a week or two ago?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today. : Billy, I was thinking of a three-way with the White Sox.  Send Ellsbury and Lowrie to CWS for Chris Sale & Gordon Beckham.  Then send Sale & Beckham to Pittsburgh along with (one of) a Kalish / Reddick / Lin to put the icing on the cake. This gives Pittsburgh 3 cost-controlled potential studs in place of one, and Neil Walker can move to 3rd, his natural position that's been a black-hole for the team. CWS gets a lefty (an island in an ocean of righties) lead-off man, so they can say bye-bye to the pitiful Juan Pierre and the worst CF in the game (Alex Rios) and Lowrie (when healthy) is a more than adequate replacement for Beckham, and in the best spot in the field (2B) for him to boot. The Sox get McCutchen at a time when I honestly think they are richer in talent than dollars.  They don't have to worry about extending him until guys like Lackey are off the books.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    The Pirate FO hasn't forgot about Brandon Moss.
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    Being one of the Ellsbury bashers from last year, I feel the need to add a few things.

    -I never questioned his on-field ability. I ALWAYS maintained that he's an exciting, dynamic player. I can really only think of one, well publicized person who doesn't think he's very good while playing.

    -I questioned his desire to play with nicks and bruises. There were rumblings about him being unwilling in the minors, there were certainly questions in '08 when Francona himself commented that he needed to understand his role, and realize the effort needed to play, and play at less than 100% (that's the basics, I'm working off memory). And there is certainly enough to question his 2010. Nobody can say definitively either way. The only facts are Ellsbury took far longer than anyone in history to come back from cracked ribs. Maybe it was unavoidable, maybe not, but there is certainly reason, and it's fair to question it.

    Now, all that being said, he has shown, this year, more of a willingness to play through pain. It's just one half of one year however. I was basing my opinions off of 3+ years, and am unwilling to completely erase them after a good 90 games.

    Basically, I still question his durability. He is in the process of proving people like me wrong, but he's not there yet. Do you assume the thrice relapsed alcoholic is really clean, and will forever stay clean, after 4 months? No. Likewise, I'm not ready yet to assume there won't be issues in the future.

    For me, his value really can't ever be higher. He still is cost controllable, and it's hard to believe he could really get MUCH better, given just how well he's doing. If he performs at this level for the next ten years, he'll probably be in talks of a HOF career. JD Drew was at this point once upon a time, and that's my biggest fear; he turns into a 115 game a year player. Nobody can deny the questionable history, it's just a matter of taking the chance, and paying this Borass client top dollar in the future, or cashing out at some point and getting comparable value in different pieces. I go for the latter. I really wish a hard push would have been made for Kemp LAST year. I was beating that drum ferociously and from the very front of the line, a lot of people thought he wasn't that good, I maintained it was just a 'down' year (that many players would kill for), but that ship has sailed. Kemp is an elite player that would  take Ellsbury type talent, and a considerable amount more to pry him away. He's younger, more power, similiar steal numbers, better OPS, equivalent average, probably a slight downgrade in range, but a better arm.
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]Being one of the Ellsbury bashers from last year, I feel the need to add a few things. -I never questioned his on-field ability. I ALWAYS maintained that he's an exciting, dynamic player. I can really only think of one, well publicized person who doesn't think he's very good while playing. -I questioned his desire to play with nicks and bruises. There were rumblings about him being unwilling in the minors, there were certainly questions in '08 when Francona himself commented that he needed to understand his role, and realize the effort needed to play, and play at less than 100% (that's the basics, I'm working off memory). And there is certainly enough to question his 2010. Nobody can say definitively either way. The only facts are Ellsbury took far longer than anyone in history to come back from cracked ribs. Maybe it was unavoidable, maybe not, but there is certainly reason, and it's fair to question it. Now, all that being said, he has shown, this year, more of a willingness to play through pain. It's just one half of one year however. I was basing my opinions off of 3+ years, and am unwilling to completely erase them after a good 90 games. Basically, I still question his durability. He is in the process of proving people like me wrong, but he's not there yet. Do you assume the thrice relapsed alcoholic is really clean, and will forever stay clean, after 4 months? No. Likewise, I'm not ready yet to assume there won't be issues in the future. For me, his value really can't ever be higher. He still is cost controllable, and it's hard to believe he could really get MUCH better, given just how well he's doing. If he performs at this level for the next ten years, he'll probably be in talks of a HOF career. JD Drew was at this point once upon a time, and that's my biggest fear; he turns into a 115 game a year player. Nobody can deny the questionable history, it's just a matter of taking the chance, and paying this Borass client top dollar in the future, or cashing out at some point and getting comparable value in different pieces. I go for the latter. I really wish a hard push would have been made for Kemp LAST year. I was beating that drum ferociously and from the very front of the line, a lot of people thought he wasn't that good, I maintained it was just a 'down' year (that many players would kill for), but that ship has sailed. Kemp is an elite player that would  take Ellsbury type talent, and a considerable amount more to pry him away. He's younger, more power, similiar steal numbers, better OPS, equivalent average, probably a slight downgrade in range, but a better arm.
    Posted by ma6dragon9[/QUOTE]

    Every team could use a good leadoff hitter and Jacoby has become just that.  I told all my friends who doubted his "lack of power" and talent early on that Ells could be our next Damon and he has been.

    The money is there to deal with Boras when/if the time comes.  We owe Adrian more next season but between guys like Scutaro, Cam, Drew and company we lose at the very least 25mil off the books next season. 
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    Oh, and to get McCutcheon, you'd really have to blow their doors off. He is probably the one exciting player they have. They're in no rush to just hand him off to another team. Beckham and Sale would probably get laughed at, even with a FEW decent Sox prospects. You'd be looking at 4 or 5 top level prospects, nothing less, otherwise, why would they even consider it? They can let him mash the ball for a few years, in PIT, before still getting top value.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today. : Every team could use a good leadoff hitter and Jacoby has become just that.  I told all my friends who doubted his "lack of power" and talent early on that Ells could be our next Damon and he has been. The money is there to deal with Boras when/if the time comes.  We owe Adrian more next season but between guys like Scutaro, Cam, Drew and company we lose at the very least 25mil off the books next season. 
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    It's a good thing too, because it's going to take nearly that much. The Sox set the bar with Crawford, Ellsbury/Borass would not take any less than that, and will make a compelling case for more. With teams like the Angels, who lost out with the same bid to Crawford, out there, the price will be astronomical. The Crawford contract, though I think he'll be fine, will cost the Sox down the road as well. I like Crawford, but not for 7 years, the length was not smart at all, if they had to pay that much annually, they should have done it for fewer years or let him go to LA. Oh well, it's done now. Pedey/Lester/Buch won't be short-selling themselves next time.

    I cringe whenever Theo is infatuated with anyone.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today. : It's a good thing too, because it's going to take nearly that much. The Sox set the bar with Crawford, Ellsbury/Borass would not take any less than that, and will make a compelling case for more. With teams like the Angels, who lost out with the same bid to Crawford, out there, the price will be astronomical. The Crawford contract, though I think he'll be fine, will cost the Sox down the road as well. I like Crawford, but not for 7 years, the length was not smart at all, if they had to pay that much annually, they should have done it for fewer years or let him go to LA. Oh well, it's done now. Pedey/Lester/Buch won't be short-selling themselves next time. I cringe whenever Theo is infatuated with anyone.
    Posted by ma6dragon9[/QUOTE]

    I agree ma6, Crawford isn't worth anything close to what Theo paid.  As a result Theo has made it much more difficult on himself when/if it comes time to re-sign Jacoby.
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    m
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    I could not agree more!!!!!!


    Can you remember how many on this Board last year were calling for him to be traded?

    MANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The Worm has turned!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from bootis4745. Show bootis4745's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    Forgot.

    Let me add this to your comment and expand this just a little.

    1. Get Crawford back
    2. Bench Drew
    3 Start Josh Reddick in Right (Speed, Defense, Power, Hitting for average) he is our RF for next year.
     
    The Future is NOW!

    Now with those 3 Guys in play WE HAVE THE BEST OUTFIELD IN ALL OF BASEBALL (yes I know I am shouting)

    Get It Done!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from law2009a. Show law2009a's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    n
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today. : I agree ma6, Crawford isn't worth anything close to what Theo paid.  As a result Theo has made it much more difficult on himself when/if it comes time to re-sign Jacoby.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    That is speculation.  Teams will try to blow Ellsbury away regardless of Crawford's deal because Ellsbury fills many needs.  If Theo Can't sign him I'm sure you will see Carl in CF for the Sox and they will get/develop a corner OF.  Theo is well aware of what he is doing and has backup scenarios we have not even thought of.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from tbrod. Show tbrod's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    Reddick is not going to be the starting anything next year.
    A flash in the pan, who's not even listed in the Sox top 10 prospects.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today. : That is speculation.  Teams will try to blow Ellsbury away regardless of Crawford's deal because Ellsbury fills many needs.  If Theo Can't sign him I'm sure you will see Carl in CF for the Sox and they will get/develop a corner OF.  Theo is well aware of what he is doing and has backup scenarios we have not even thought of.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]I am not so sure that CF would be in CC's future. he has only played 54 games there in his whole career and was last used there in 2008. His sample sets are small but the metrics suggest he is below average. His arm certainly makes him an unlikely RF, so I think we will see CC in LF as his primary spot during his RS career.

    Where Crawford's signing becomes relevant is two fold. First it eats up a lot of budget. It would be difficult to carry big contracts for both players when neither is a middle of the order producer but rather table setters. 

    Secondarily, whether it becomes an outlier or not is yet to be seen, but that contract established a very high valuation for a career .781 OPS with a high SB total.

    IMO the RS will gladly work through the arbitration years with Ellsbury, certainly through next year while the cost will be contained. But once FA nears, the RS will be hard pressed to keep both players and Crawford's contract in dollars and duration are a huge stumbling block to his ever being traded. If somebody falls out of bed in trade and if the RS had suitable replacement players in the system, a trade would be attractive. If not and the CBA remains the same, they will take the years of service and the picks IMHO.

    Personally I am just going to enjoy the present...
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]Reddick is not going to be the starting anything next year. A flash in the pan, who's not even listed in the Sox top 10 prospects.
    Posted by tbrod[/QUOTE]

    As of November 3rd 2010, Baseball America had Reddick as the Sox 7th best prospect.  He only moved up after Kelly, Rizzo, and Fuentes were sent to San Diego.

    After the AGon deal, Reddick would be listed as the Sox 4th best prospect according to Baseball America.

     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]Another ranking of centerfielders: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Yes. McCutchen is GOOD. Kemp shouldn't be in CF, but has a far better bat the Ellsbury.  In the AL, I think you CAN argue that Granderson is better...but regardless who is better, I think the two of them are the clear cut All Star level guys in the AL.  Superstar? I don't know about that.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    The next time Kemp gets another super hot girl friend like Rhianna or whatever her name is, his performance will drop. He gives every indication of being a potentially streaky player going forward. The lifestyle is not conducive to baseball excellence. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from --The--Babe----. Show --The--Babe----'s posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    He's good.....but he's no Granderson.......just sayin.......
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]He's good.....but he's no Granderson.......just sayin.......
    Posted by --The--Babe----[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, you are partly right.  If he was Granderson, he would be hitting .270 and that would not get it done as a leadoff hitter.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxPatsCelts1988. Show SoxPatsCelts1988's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]He's good.....but he's no Granderson.......just sayin.......
    Posted by --The--Babe----[/QUOTE]

    I guarantee the Yanks would trade Granderson for Ellsbury in a heartbeat.  Ellsbury has emerged and you know it.  Granderson is having a good year but it really isn't that far off of what he usually does.  Plus he has come back to earth of late.

    Ellsbury may have 100 RBI from the leadoff spot this year which would be incredible.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today. : I guarantee the Yanks would trade Granderson for Ellsbury in a heartbeat.  Ellsbury has emerged and you know it.  Granderson is having a good year but it really isn't that far off of what he usually does.  Plus he has come back to earth of late. Ellsbury may have 100 RBI from the leadoff spot this year which would be incredible.
    Posted by SoxPatsCelts1988[/QUOTE]
    Why would the Yankees want three leadoff hitters in Derek Jeter, Brett Gardner and Jacoby Ellsbury? Your "guarantee" makes no sense.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    Baseball-Reference hasn't updated for today's game yet, but Ellsbury's OPS+ before today was +134.

    To put that in perspective, the highest OPS+ Johnny Damon has had for any single season is +118.
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]Baseball-Reference hasn't updated for today's game yet, but Ellsbury's OPS+ before today was +134. To put that in perspective, the highest OPS+ Johnny Damon has had for any single season is +118.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]
    Jacoby Ellsbury has lifted his career OPS+ to above 100 at 101.
     
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