Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE] If Ells was putting up Granderson's numbers and had his defensive chops, you'd think about canonizing him right now. Guy's headed for 45 HRs, 120 RBIs, 150 runs, and has a great glove. Ells is playing well, but let's not get silly.    Focussing on HRs is a mistake.  the two leading systems have JE having a better year. Are they both silly?  Before we elevate someone to possibly being the best in the game they must do it for more than half a season.       True.  Granderson was great at 26 and 27 followed by two down years.  Ellsbury could do the same, his defence has been inconsistent.   Fans get excited about breakout seasons (even flash in the pan ones) and JE is putting the best season by a Sox OF since possibly the 70's.                                    
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    That is a bold statement.  You obviously watch and know more about the Sox than I do but off the top of my head I'm sure Jim Rice and Dwight Evans had some good seasons.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today. : Jacoby Ellsbury has lifted his career OPS+ to above 100 at 101.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Hill, I have noticed you often bring up evidence against Ellsbury most of which is valid.  I am surprised you haven't given Ellsbury his due by posting the 2011 WAR numbers compared to Granderson.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    That is a bold statement. You obviously watch and know more about the Sox than I do but off the top of my head I'm sure Jim Rice and Dwight Evans had some good seasons.

    Rice had two great years in the 80's at 5.9 and 6.6 WAR(fGrhs, did not include baserunning).  JE is on pace to top that easily.  A big advantage is playing CF which is why Rice is hurt a bit, plus he was a very poor runner.

    I didn't include the 70's b/c Lynn was incredible in 1979 with 9.0 WAR.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]That is a bold statement. You obviously watch and know more about the Sox than I do but off the top of my head I'm sure Jim Rice and Dwight Evans had some good seasons. Rice had two great years in the 80's at 5.9 and 6.6 WAR(fGrhs, did not include baserunning).  JE is on pace to top that easily.  A big advantage is playing CF which is why Rice is hurt a bit, plus he was a very poor runner. I didn't include the 70's b/c Lynn was incredible in 1979 with 9.0 WAR.
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    Though I agree with you that Ellsbury is having a great season I think there is more to it than the WAR stat.
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]Another ranking of centerfielders: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    I think the top 4 on this list are the cream.  Jake is in that list.  He is showing speed, power, and increased plate discipline.  As a leadoff hitter, he needs to continue to try to get that OBP closer to .400, and continue to increase his reads/jump on defense.  Hard to find too many other faults with his game.  He has taken a large step forward this year, mostly due to be healthy.
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today. : Hill, I have noticed you often bring up evidence against Ellsbury most of which is valid.  I am surprised you haven't given Ellsbury his due by posting the 2011 WAR numbers compared to Granderson.
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]
    I did so in one of the first posts to this thread:

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    posted at 7/7/2011 11:21 PM EDT
    www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=b634e9e76cf4c7e54120e863762ba35a&plckUserId=b634e9e76cf4c7e54120e863762ba35a">
    Posts: 4374
    First: 1/14/2006
    Last: 7/11/2011
    Another ranking of centerfielders:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]Slomag, a reasonable approach to what you recognize as a long standing void and problem for the Red Sox, the lack of any viable OF slugging, much less OF slugging v. LHP. The problem I see is that McCutchen has not yet demonstrated the career long ball ability that kemp has, lacking the full season body of work to prove where his median career average is going to end up. Kemp has established the ability to reach the superstar level (not a given off of one career year), but more importantly has established over 3 full seasons the ability to slug and hit the very important long ball at a high rate. Kemp plays in a park that is a little more pitcher friendly than Pittsburgh, though both are pitcher friendly. McCutchen has just one full season under his belt, as an everyday player, to go with what has been an impressive 2011 to half way, but not on a level with Kemp. McCutchen is such a talented player, though, and so cheap for years to come, I'm pretty sure Beckham and Sale are not really a serious offer for McCutchen.    I agree that McCutchen would fill the void, short term and long term.
    Posted by billbyboy[/QUOTE]

    The problem I see with Kemp is the money.  Whether we trade for him in the midst of this monster season, or wait for the off-season and acquire as a FA, the contract / extension is going to be at least Crawford years & money.  That means at the very least Papi and Papelbon are gone next year, and we're still bumping right up against the luxury tax, with raises due for Buchholz, Pedroia and Lester, and a decision looming on Youkilis.  I think the only way we get RH power help now is from within (Lavarnway) or by trading cheap young talent for the same.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today. : Good grief; not defensively (Ells is good, but could be better; he is known to take bad routes to FBs; Gardner is supreme out there), and not with the arm.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    Actually, according to UZR Ells has been the best defensive CF in the AL this year.  He's improved on his routes and is getting better jumps than in the past (although there's still a lot of room for improvement).  I don't care what Gardner is doing defensively since he's in LF, not CF.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mfymfy. Show mfymfy's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    Money aside, if the Dodgers were offered Ellsbury straight up for Kemp, they'd say no. If the Pirates were offered Ells for McCutchen, they'd say no. If the Yanks were offered Ells for Granderson, they'd say no. That he's in the conversation on the strength of this season should be enough, but there's another level of play out there. Great leadoff guy so far this year, though. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    Right, slomag, the Sox cannot afford Kemp and probably don't need him. They certainly cannot afford Crawford, Gonzalez, Papelbon, Ortiz, and Kemp.  Then there are the other players you name.  Who knows what other needs might pop up. Given the firepower in Boston's lineup, especially if Salty continues to improve, the team will have the luxury of trying homegrown talent in rightfield and, perhaps, at SS.  It isn't as if the club lacks promising players in those positions.  Granted, some people rate those prospects higher than do others, but we aren't talking about lollipops. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from WE5NUTS. Show WE5NUTS's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

     "Money aside..............If the Pirates were offered Ells for McCutchen, they'd say no. If....."
     Obviously, even with money aside, if the Dodgers were offered Ells for Kemp or the Yankees offered Ells for Granderson, they'd say no. But the only reason the Pirates wouldn't take Ells for McCutchen is because of the money. Ells is probably better than McCutchen, and the only reasons the Pirates would decline are that Ells is 3 years older, is eligible for free agency in 2013, a year earlier than McCutchen, and has Boras for his agent.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]  But the only reason the Pirates wouldn't take Ells for McCutchen is because of the money. Ells is probably better than McCutchen, and the only reasons the Pirates would decline are that Ells is 3 years older, is eligible for free agency in 2013, a year earlier than McCutchen, and has Boras for his agent.
    Posted by WE5NUTS[/QUOTE]

    He's eligible for FA 2 yeas sooner than McCutchen, not 1.  Though McCutchen projects to be arb eligible this offseason as a super 2.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bill st jay. Show bill st jay's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    How can this be?  Why this time last year everyone called him a wimp, slacker, or just wanted to trade him.
    I'm glad there are people on the Sox who have slightly better judgement on baseball talent than many of Boston's fans.
    Best wishes Jacoby.  GO SOX
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]I see ten AL CF on that list that are better than Bellsbury. Let's not even mention how many better NL CF there are.
    Posted by bettersoftthanlaw[/QUOTE]

    You must be related to the Babe. Can't see what's right in front of a you and probably know nothing about baseball, just like to get people pissed off with stupid posts. It's Ellsbury, not Bellsbury you idiot.

    Ells may not be the best but he's steadily improving and is among the better center fielders in the game. He's on the way to easily scoring over 100runs, probably drive in 80+ runs, hit over .300 this year, get well over 200 hits and you think there are atleast 10 better. No way !!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]How can this be?  Why this time last year everyone called him a wimp, slacker, or just wanted to trade him. I'm glad there are people on the Sox who have slightly better judgement on baseball talent than many of Boston's fans. Best wishes Jacoby.  GO SOX
    Posted by billstjay[/QUOTE]


    Not everyone,  you see some of us are athletes who have incurred and recovered from extensive injuries and seen many other injuries amongst our colleagues. 

    Personally I've broken my ribs before and while baseball is not my sport I do play recreationally and did play up until highschool.  My personal opinion is in a sport that is ruled by hand to eye coordination and that connection between skill and body mechanics having the bones broken that twist your torso and protect your vital organs and induce pain by just breathing is going to adversely effect your swing....

    In other words if Jacoby Ellsbury was the toughest guy in the world and played through the pain he would probably bat .030 

    I....was, is and always have been a Jacoby Ellsbury fan. 
     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from boomer1951. Show boomer1951's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    Shame shame on the Boston media and so called sports fans who ranked on him so hard last season.......... I've broken ribs before..........it hurts a lot and takes forever to heal.  Lets hope he remains a RedSox for the long term. 
     
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    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]Right, slomag, the Sox cannot afford Kemp and probably don't need him. Wrong, slomag. The Sox can afford Kemp, who would cost 3.4M for the remainder of this year. Drew and Cameron's 21M comes off the books next year, at which time Kemp's extension would take affect. Kemp would likely agree to any extension with a base in the range of 18 to 21M. Ellsbury would be replaced by Reddick/Kalish at virtual zero cost, and Ellsbury's 2012 cost would be about 4 to 6M of wasting expenditure that should go to a profile like Kemp. The net 2012  base cost of Kemp, in relation to current budget, would be ie 2012 Budget 20M - 5M for Ellsbury = 15M budget for Kemp 2011 OF Budget 21.5M for Drew & Cameron + 2.4M Ellsbury = 23.9M budget The OF budget for 2012 would go down, not up, with Kemp. It would be wrong to just try and keep it down another 12 to 15M when the team needs a long term young RH OF star slugger. It's needed long term, and, regardless if this team has enough to win it this year, would make this year's team better and more likely to win it all this year. That means at the very least Papi and Papelbon are gone next year, and we're still bumping right up against the luxury tax, with raises due for Buchholz, Pedroia and Lester, and a decision looming on Youkilis Wrong. The 2012 OF budget would go down, with Kemp, in relation to the 2011 OF budget. Ortiz's age means he won't receive a pay increase because of the market, and might get a front loaded two year deal with a fairly significant base decrease. Buchholz's, Pedroia and Lester's deals are already in place and are averages for the CBT calulation. You are not familiar with how the CBT is calculated. It's not based upon what is paid per year, it's base on an average computation over the life of the contract. Youk is under control through 2013, with the team option buyout cost at only 1M. That's not an issue at all. Papelbon is already making 12M. Rivera is making 15M a year. The decision on Papelbon will not be a CBT issue, it will be a value decision. Bard and Jenks are already locked in for beyond this year, so it's not like the world ends if they don't want to pay Papelbon another 3M for next year. I think they should offer Papelbon 2 years at 15M, with a player opt out of year 2 so Papelbon has a chance to cash in and hit the market and get another market 2 year deal. Like it or not, having Bard and Papelbon is much better than Bard and ?. Papelbon has proven he can handle the Boston closer role, and I don't think age 31 and 32 means he'll be washed up before the 2nd year ends. It works for both sides because Papelbon controls his own destiny if he has a year that warrants another 2 year deal, but the Red Sox are only on the hook for 2 years and Bard to capture savings and Jenks is off the books for Papelbon's 2nd year. To find a reliable closer or closer/setup guy of the quality of Bard and Papelbon, Jenks aint it and if it's on the market it's likely to cost about as much as Papelbon, anyway. Theo should have learned his lesson that skimping on the pen is a huge mistake. Papelbon isn't likely to ever be the 2007 version, but that doesn't mean to dumpster dive and weaken the pen top by subtracting Papelbon for Bard and Jenks, etc. Papelbon has proven he can be, worst case, one of the leagues upper tier closers, for going on 5 years. The good part of pen arms is that the loss is limited to a year or so if the player's career tanks in midstream. Unlike Lackey's foolish contract, it's a risk cost that practically has to be taken. The Red Sox will probably accept Scutaro's player's option at 3M instead of paying 1.5M buyout.  Good veteran UIF player in that they are already on the hook for another 1.5 to let him go. Why do that when it costs just 1.5M more to retain him for one more year. Bottom line: Scutaro is a net change of minus 3.25M I don't think Ellsbury v. LHP is hard to top, in 2011.
    Posted by billbyboy[/QUOTE]

    What about Gonzalez's extension?  That's going to add almost $16M to the CBT value next year.
      




     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.

    In Response to Re: Jacoby Ellsbury is the best CF in the AL and may be the best in the game today.:
    [QUOTE]Shame shame on the Boston media and so called sports fans who ranked on him so hard last season.......... I've broken ribs before..........it hurts a lot and takes forever to heal.  Lets hope he remains a RedSox for the long term. 
    Posted by boomer1951[/QUOTE]


    Me too boomer, it's a very tough injury to deal with because moving your torso aggravates your ribs, which means you pretty much can't dive, run, or swing a bat without tremendous pain.  In a game that is so so so reliant a pure skill and hand to eye coordination a little bit of a flaw in your mechanics can cause a drastic decline in performance.

    Ellsbury did the team more good by staying out than he would have done by trying to play through the pain. 
     

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