Jays-Marlins Deal

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Jays-Marlins Deal

    As usual, the assumption is that the prospects on other teams are worthless and only the Sox have any.

     

    The Jays gave up their BA #2, #5 and #8 in this deal.  The Sox equivalent prospects are Bradley, Owens and Brentz.   This of course operates on the assumption that the Jays farm system is equal to Boston's.  The Jays were significantly better last year, but I will assume it evened out somewhat and the prospect packages will be equal if Cecchini (whom many Sox fans prefer to deal anyway) replaces Brentz.  If Toronto's system is still significantly better than Boston's. then my equivalent offer is very light.

     

    Throw in Doubront and Mickey Pena to offset Alvarez and Desclafini. And Saltalamacchia and Sweeney as the equals of Escobar and Mathis.

     

    So the Sox to equal - not better, equal - the Jays offer, we have to give up Bradley, Owens, Cecchini, Doubront, Pena, Saltalamacchia and Sweeney.  While I am sure the last two are not deal breakers, who would give up the rest of that package for:

     

    1 year of Josh Johnson owed $13.75mill and the key to the deal

    3 years of Mark Buerhle still owed $48mill, and over 2,600 IP since 2001

    5 years of Jose Reyes, still owed $96mill

    1 year of John Buck, owed $6mill

    3 arbitration eligible years of Emilio Bonaficio, estimated to be about $10mill total?

     

    The biggest thing n Toronto's favor should be Josh Johnson's willingness to sign an extension, since staying on the field is not his greatest strength.  If he is gone after one year, however, that is alot to give up for Reyes and whatever Buerhle has left, and a glorified utility infielder.  Buerhle has been remarkably durable, but something has to give at some point.

     

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    Reyes playing on turf will not benefit him any either.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    Maybe, but Reyes is only 29 next year and 2 seasons removed from an MVP-caliber season.  He does have a spotty health history, but he should be good player for a while.  He won't finish that contract as a shortstop.

     

    Maybe the Jays can pawn him off on the Angels and take back the shorter, cheaper deal of Vernon Wells (plus) in the process...

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to notin's comment:

    As usual, the assumption is that the prospects on other teams are worthless and only the Sox have any.

     

    The Jays gave up their BA #2, #5 and #8 in this deal.  The Sox equivalent prospects are Bradley, Owens and Brentz.   This of course operates on the assumption that the Jays farm system is equal to Boston's.  The Jays were significantly better last year, but I will assume it evened out somewhat and the prospect packages will be equal if Cecchini (whom many Sox fans prefer to deal anyway) replaces Brentz.  If Toronto's system is still significantly better than Boston's. then my equivalent offer is very light.

     

    Throw in Doubront and Mickey Pena to offset Alvarez and Desclafini. And Saltalamacchia and Sweeney as the equals of Escobar and Mathis.

     

    So the Sox to equal - not better, equal - the Jays offer, we have to give up Bradley, Owens, Cecchini, Doubront, Pena, Saltalamacchia and Sweeney.  While I am sure the last two are not deal breakers, who would give up the rest of that package for:

     

    1 year of Josh Johnson owed $13.75mill and the key to the deal

    3 years of Mark Buerhle still owed $48mill, and over 2,600 IP since 2001

    5 years of Jose Reyes, still owed $96mill

    1 year of John Buck, owed $6mill

    3 arbitration eligible years of Emilio Bonaficio, estimated to be about $10mill total?

     

    The biggest thing n Toronto's favor should be Josh Johnson's willingness to sign an extension, since staying on the field is not his greatest strength.  If he is gone after one year, however, that is alot to give up for Reyes and whatever Buerhle has left, and a glorified utility infielder.  Buerhle has been remarkably durable, but something has to give at some point.

     

     

     



    This was a no-brainer for Toronto.  They need to sell tickets.  You tell a bunch of Canadian hockey fans who currently don't have a hockey season that the Blue Jays just acquired 3 all-stars for a bunch of minor leaguers and they're all in.  These are the kinds of deals the Blue Jays need to make. 

    That said, this would have been a horrible deal for the Sox for all of the reasons you mentioned, and then some. 

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Softlawes. Show Softlawes's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    This won't sell tickets.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to notin's comment:

    Maybe, but Reyes is only 29 next year and 2 seasons removed from an MVP-caliber season.  He does have a spotty health history, but he should be good player for a while.  He won't finish that contract as a shortstop.

     

    Maybe the Jays can pawn him off on the Angels and take back the shorter, cheaper deal of Vernon Wells (plus) in the process...




    Hes like Crawford. A solid player who is being paid waaaaay more than hes worth.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to Softlawes' comment:

    This won't sell tickets.




    It will in Toronto until the shine wears off...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to Softlawes's comment:

    This won't sell tickets.




    That's deep, but please don't elaborate.  There's probably only a one in ten chance that the personality that responds has any clue about the business side of baseball...

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Softlawes. Show Softlawes's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    There is no sunshine to this cast-off deal.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

    As usual, the assumption is that the prospects on other teams are worthless and only the Sox have any.

     

    The Jays gave up their BA #2, #5 and #8 in this deal.  The Sox equivalent prospects are Bradley, Owens and Brentz.   This of course operates on the assumption that the Jays farm system is equal to Boston's.  The Jays were significantly better last year, but I will assume it evened out somewhat and the prospect packages will be equal if Cecchini (whom many Sox fans prefer to deal anyway) replaces Brentz.  If Toronto's system is still significantly better than Boston's. then my equivalent offer is very light.

     

    Throw in Doubront and Mickey Pena to offset Alvarez and Desclafini. And Saltalamacchia and Sweeney as the equals of Escobar and Mathis.

     

    So the Sox to equal - not better, equal - the Jays offer, we have to give up Bradley, Owens, Cecchini, Doubront, Pena, Saltalamacchia and Sweeney.  While I am sure the last two are not deal breakers, who would give up the rest of that package for:

     

    1 year of Josh Johnson owed $13.75mill and the key to the deal

    3 years of Mark Buerhle still owed $48mill, and over 2,600 IP since 2001

    5 years of Jose Reyes, still owed $96mill

    1 year of John Buck, owed $6mill

    3 arbitration eligible years of Emilio Bonaficio, estimated to be about $10mill total?

     

    The biggest thing n Toronto's favor should be Josh Johnson's willingness to sign an extension, since staying on the field is not his greatest strength.  If he is gone after one year, however, that is alot to give up for Reyes and whatever Buerhle has left, and a glorified utility infielder.  Buerhle has been remarkably durable, but something has to give at some point.

     

     

     



    This was a no-brainer for Toronto.  They need to sell tickets.  You tell a bunch of Canadian hockey fans who currently don't have a hockey season that the Blue Jays just acquired 3 all-stars for a bunch of minor leaguers and they're all in.  These are the kinds of deals the Blue Jays need to make. 

    That said, this would have been a horrible deal for the Sox for all of the reasons you mentioned, and then some. 

     




    And another point as to how tough this deal might have been for Boston.  The MIAMI Marlins acquired 2 Cuban Major Leaguers in the deal (Escobar and Hechevarria).   This was probably an important factor for them, and at the very least unlikely to be coincidental. 

    And while Jose Iglesias might have some trade appeal as a Cuban player, I don't think Juan Carlos Linares or Adalberto Ibarra have enough collective mojo to get this done... 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

    Maybe, but Reyes is only 29 next year and 2 seasons removed from an MVP-caliber season.  He does have a spotty health history, but he should be good player for a while.  He won't finish that contract as a shortstop.

     

    Maybe the Jays can pawn him off on the Angels and take back the shorter, cheaper deal of Vernon Wells (plus) in the process...




    Hes like Crawford. A solid player who is being paid waaaaay more than hes worth.




    Crawford just gets hurt alot.  Wells has been flat out awful since he signed his megadeal...

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    Logic might suggest that Buerhle is an injury risk, but there is absolutely nothing about his history to suggest he won't pitch another 31-33 starts and 200+ innings.  He has been the most consistent innings eater in the ML for over a decade now.

    It is much more likely that Josh Johnson, who has only once in his career had back to back seasons with over 180 innings pitched, ends up with an extended trip to the DL.

    Fact is, Toronto just gave themselves a real shot at a WC, if not a division title.  This is really a one year shot at a title trade for Toronto.  Toronto mortgaged quite a bit of their future to have a big season in 2013.  I am glad the Sox did not do so.  Reyes is more than likely to spend a good deal of his remaining 5 years on the DL, Johnson may very well be gone after 2013 and Buerhle will be 35 by opening day of 2014.  Bonifacio may very well be a find for Toronto, but he's kind of like a Jed Lowrie, but with speed instead of power. 

    Toronto really improved their pitching, and got a good SS, a good Utility IFer and a catcher much like Salty, but without as much HR power.

    But it is like they traded Barnes, Webster and Owens, along with Cecchini and Bradley and Iglesias and Salty.  I am one who is glad the Sox did not trade that much of their future for what is probably just a one-year run at a title.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    This was a no-brainer for Toronto.  They need to sell tickets.  You tell a bunch of Canadian hockey fans who currently don't have a hockey season that the Blue Jays just acquired 3 all-stars for a bunch of minor leaguers and they're all in.  These are the kinds of deals the Blue Jays need to make. 


    To be precise, the Blue Jays acquired four All Stars as catcher John Buck was an All Star for the Blue Jays in 2010 while feasting on AL East pitching to the tune of a .281/.314/.489/.802 line with 20 homeruns:

     

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buckjo01.shtml

    Buck stroked one double in two at-bats at the 2010 All Star Game:

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2010_07_13_nasmlb_aasmlb_1

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    Of course, if the Jays go out and hire Bobby Valentine to manage this team, it could ruin even their one shot at a title...

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

    Maybe, but Reyes is only 29 next year and 2 seasons removed from an MVP-caliber season.  He does have a spotty health history, but he should be good player for a while.  He won't finish that contract as a shortstop.

     

    Maybe the Jays can pawn him off on the Angels and take back the shorter, cheaper deal of Vernon Wells (plus) in the process...




    Hes like Crawford. A solid player who is being paid waaaaay more than hes worth.




    Crawford just gets hurt alot.  Wells has been flat out awful since he signed his megadeal...




    Thats why I compared them. same skill set, although different positions. 2 players paid north of 20M per that have injury histories..

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from iamme17. Show iamme17's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    looking over the jays 2013 roster the most impressive thing is the speed the've stocked up on.Guess they'll be playing a lot more smallball although their power numbers over the last few years were very good.Reyes,Rajai Davis,Anthony Gose,Bonafacio are speed merchants on the basepaths,add Lawrie and Rasmus and they're gonna drive any team without a good throwing catcher to drink

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    Logic might suggest that Buerhle is an injury risk, but there is absolutely nothing about his history to suggest he won't pitch another 31-33 starts and 200+ innings.  He has been the most consistent innings eater in the ML for over a decade now.

    It is much more likely that Josh Johnson, who has only once in his career had back to back seasons with over 180 innings pitched, ends up with an extended trip to the DL.

    Fact is, Toronto just gave themselves a real shot at a WC, if not a division title.  This is really a one year shot at a title trade for Toronto.  Toronto mortgaged quite a bit of their future to have a big season in 2013.  I am glad the Sox did not do so.  Reyes is more than likely to spend a good deal of his remaining 5 years on the DL, Johnson may very well be gone after 2013 and Buerhle will be 35 by opening day of 2014.  Bonifacio may very well be a find for Toronto, but he's kind of like a Jed Lowrie, but with speed instead of power. 

    Toronto really improved their pitching, and got a good SS, a good Utility IFer and a catcher much like Salty, but without as much HR power.

    But it is like they traded Barnes, Webster and Owens, along with Cecchini and Bradley and Iglesias and Salty.  I am one who is glad the Sox did not trade that much of their future for what is probably just a one-year run at a title.




    Your right on target Par. This is an all in year for Toronto. They mortaged the furure to win in 2013. thats a HUGE risk. I wouldnt have given up that much just to go for it for 1 year.

    I think this was as much a publicity move as it was an all out shot at a WS title in 2013 for the jays.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to hill55's comment:

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    This was a no-brainer for Toronto.  They need to sell tickets.  You tell a bunch of Canadian hockey fans who currently don't have a hockey season that the Blue Jays just acquired 3 all-stars for a bunch of minor leaguers and they're all in.  These are the kinds of deals the Blue Jays need to make. 


    To be precise, the Blue Jays acquired four All Stars as catcher John Buck was an All Star for the Blue Jays in 2010 while feasting on AL East pitching to the tune of a .281/.314/.489/.802 line with 20 homeruns:

     

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buckjo01.shtml

    Buck stroked one double in two at-bats in the 2010 All Star Game:

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2010_07_13_nasmlb_aasmlb_1



    Haha!...I loathe you and your stats, Hill...;)

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    The notion that a team is giving up the future for a shot to win this year is nonsense.  The whole idea is to win.  There are more young prospects coming along every year.  Some of you guys are pulling out all stops to try and defend the poor performance of our front office.  Toronto just greatly improved their roster. We are now firmly entrenched in the basement , while sitting on a pile of money. How is that justifiable ? 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    The notion that a team is giving up the future for a shot to win this year is nonsense.  The whole idea is to win.  There are more young prospects coming along every year.  Some of you guys are pulling out all stops to try and defend the poor performance of our front office.  Toronto just greatly improved their roster. We are now firmly entrenched in the basement , while sitting on a pile of money. How is that justifiable ? 




    That's why they play the games, Denny.  The LA Angels, who won 12 more games in 2011 than the Oakland A's, signed Albert Pujols and CJ Wilson, arguably the best hitter and best pitcher on the free agent market, while the Oakland A's traded their # 1 and # 2 starters, along with their all star closer for "prospects."  By the way, the Angels also had a rookie join the team who had arguably the best rookie season in HISTORY.  Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the A's made the playoffs, while the Angels did not.  The point is, relax, let things play out a bit...

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    The notion that a team is giving up the future for a shot to win this year is nonsense.  The whole idea is to win.  There are more young prospects coming along every year.  Some of you guys are pulling out all stops to try and defend the poor performance of our front office.  Toronto just greatly improved their roster. We are now firmly entrenched in the basement , while sitting on a pile of money. How is that justifiable ? 




    That's why they play the games, Denny.  The LA Angels, who won 12 more games in 2011 than the Oakland A's, signed Albert Pujols and CJ Wilson, arguably the best hitter and best pitcher on the free agent market, while the Oakland A's traded their # 1 and # 2 starters, along with their all star closer for "prospects."  By the way, the Angels also had a rookie join the team who had arguably the best rookie season in HISTORY.  Menwhile, back at the ranch, the A's made the playoffs, while the Angels did not.  The point is, relax, let things play out a bit...




    exactly, let the offseason play out first. maybe its just the fact that some here are looking for reasons to bash BC. Ross was a solid move. Although not a "sexy' move, it allowed the Sox to improve the catchers position and give them flexability for a trade if they so choose. I expect more depth moves like this.

    Once we see what the team looks like come ST, then and only then can we make a true assesment of this offseason. Actually, what they do in 2013 would be a better way.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    Yeah. That 's why they play the games. And we lost 93 of them this year.  Do you want more of the same ?  Toronto just made major improvements. We acquired a third string catcher.  You say we are looking for reasons to bash BC.  I think you are grasping for reasons to defend him.  BC just presided over the worst Red Sox team in years.  So far , it looks like it will only get worse in 2013 .  How is this acceptable to you ?  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Yeah. That 's why they play the games. And we lost 93 of them this year.  Do you want more of the same ?  Toronto just made major improvements. We acquired a third string catcher.  You say we are looking for reasons to bash BC.  I think you are grasping for reasons to defend him.  BC just presided over the worst Red Sox team in years.  So far , it looks like it will only get worse in 2013 .  How is this acceptable to you ?  




    No, Im not looking for reasons to defend him. Im just being realistic and level headed waiting to see how this offseason plays out before I make any judgements or opinions.

    Bc didnt have any room to play last year. He was financially pinned down as the FO didnt want to exceed the luxury threshold. Thus, the moves that were made and the ones that werent this past year. he now has a the freedom to create the team. Ill wait to see what he does before i criticize his every move. Ross was a good move that could lead to other moves.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from 56redsox. Show 56redsox's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Yeah. That 's why they play the games. And we lost 93 of them this year.  Do you want more of the same ?  Toronto just made major improvements. We acquired a third string catcher.  You say we are looking for reasons to bash BC.  I think you are grasping for reasons to defend him.  BC just presided over the worst Red Sox team in years.  So far , it looks like it will only get worse in 2013 .  How is this acceptable to you ?  



    Relax Its Early, BC Will Pull A Rabbit Outah His Azz, Im Not Impressed With What The Jays Did...

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Jays-Marlins Deal

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Yeah. That 's why they play the games. And we lost 93 of them this year.  Do you want more of the same ?  Toronto just made major improvements. We acquired a third string catcher.  You say we are looking for reasons to bash BC.  I think you are grasping for reasons to defend him.  BC just presided over the worst Red Sox team in years.  So far , it looks like it will only get worse in 2013 .  How is this acceptable to you ?  




    Did you watch this team at all last year, Denny?  The Sox set an injury RECORD, they had a manager who the players lost respect for in Fort Myers, and coincidentally, some of the better players who WEREN'T injured, suffered through the worst seasons of their career.

     If you know who Denny Galehouse is, then you are either old, bitter and happy again to be able to whine after this Front Office started screwing things up with World Championships and playoff appearances, or you just won't allow yourself to look at the big picture anymore.  Which is it?

     
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