JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from az55. Show az55's posts

    JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

     Between the Boston media and many poster of this forum have pretty much mugged the guy and ran him out of town. Time to give it a rest. Look at this porous club hitting as a whole and you will find it to be quite toxic to say the least. Mookie Betts is not the centerfield answer for the Sox. JBJ's defense is mystic and the right thing to do would be to shut him down and send him to Florida to work with someone like Yaz to work on his hitting. Mookie Betts is an infielder period. The more the Sox continue to work there young talent out of postion the more this has become a continued albatross.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    Mookie Betts is a baseball player and has proved he can play CF. Not as good as JBJ, but still very good. Hes NOT just an IFer like you suggest.

    JBJ could be one of those players that dominate through AAA but just cant put it all together at the MLB level.

    Personally, I think he can make the adjustments and I look forward to seeing him again in September.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    If JBJ doesn't make it here he will make it someplace else. He's a + + Defender. There aren't many of those around. Anyone that thinks he can't hit Ma.L Pitchers give the kid another year. If I'm the Marlins thinking about trading Stanton--I want JBJ coming my way in addition to Mookie and Owens and for that matter Xander.

    JBJ is a fine prospect--he's not just a 4A--he's a kid like Moss, Reddick and others that have been traded away and found success elsewhere.

    The immense scrutiny in Boston--EVERYBODY has an opinion, EVERYBODY knows more than the GM and the MGR.

    EVERYBODY is a LEAD SCOUT or can find the next Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle and Duke Snyder--Willie, Mick and the Duke will not be walking through Fenway. In the end we will be sorry JBJ got away.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    In response to az55's comment:

     Between the Boston media and many poster of this forum have pretty much mugged the guy and ran him out of town. Time to give it a rest. Look at this porous club hitting as a whole and you will find it to be quite toxic to say the least. Mookie Betts is not the centerfield answer for the Sox. JBJ's defense is mystic and the right thing to do would be to shut him down and send him to Florida to work with someone like Yaz to work on his hitting. Mookie Betts is an infielder period. The more the Sox continue to work there young talent out of postion the more this has become a continued albatross.




    Really?

    I though "many" posters love watching watching play CF and are begging him to figure it out at the plate.

    I can't think of anyone that wants the kid to fail.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    At the very least, the 2014 Bradley/Bogaerts experience should give us pause about expecting instant miracles from Betts or any other rookie call-up.

    Personally, I think all three will be fine.

     

    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    In response to MadMc44's comment:


    If JBJ doesn't make it here he will make it someplace else. He's a + + Defender. There aren't many of those around. Anyone that thinks he can't hit Ma.L Pitchers give the kid another year. If I'm the Marlins thinking about trading Stanton--I want JBJ coming my way in addition to Mookie and Owens and for that matter Xander.


    JBJ is a fine prospect--he's not just a 4A--he's a kid like Moss, Reddick and others that have been traded away and found success elsewhere.


    The immense scrutiny in Boston--EVERYBODY has an opinion, EVERYBODY knows more than the GM and the MGR.


    EVERYBODY is a LEAD SCOUT or can find the next Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle and Duke Snyder--Willie, Mick and the Duke will not be walking through Fenway. In the end we will be sorry JBJ got away.




    The problem isn't Bradley, the PROBLEM IS THE SOX SCOUTING BUREAU/MLB TALENT EVALUATORS....they have chosen a group of young guys with what looks to be very little ability to hit MLB pitching. Maybe this has run rampant throughout MLB or maybe the Sox FO has a pretty terrible scouting department for position players for batting. The fielding end of things seems to be a plus--Vasquez great arm, Bradley GG CF defense, Betts fast, Holt scrappy, etc...but the hitting sucks. No average, no OBP, no power, no HR, no nothing...It's spread like Ebola, the mediocre batting. Good pitchers own the Sox, better pitchers dominate the Sox, even middle-of-the-road guys seem to have no problems rolling through this Sox lineup....goes back to playing prospects over veteran players that they don't have anymore or are hurt. Factor in the fast-tracking and force-feeding of prospects against teams that are tying to make the playoffs (most of the Sox opponents) and it's a recipe for disaster....Worst Sox hitting team in my lifetime for sure.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Mookie Betts is a baseball player and has proved he can play CF. Not as good as JBJ, but still very good. Hes NOT just an IFer like you suggest.

    JBJ could be one of those players that dominate through AAA but just cant put it all together at the MLB level.

    Personally, I think he can make the adjustments and I look forward to seeing him again in September.




    Neither JBJ or Boegarts ( for that matter) had sufficient development time in AAA.  Now..the Sox have replaced JBJ with a guy who has even less AAA experience ( 45 games).  I like seeing the kids play..but I don't understand why the Sox management continues to rush players through the system. It's clearly not working.

    Vasquez could be an exception..but I doubt Mookie Betts will be. He's a good player..but JBJ and Boegarts both started strong as well..and look where they are.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    Neither JBJ or Boegarts ( for that matter) had sufficient development time in AAA.  Now..the Sox have replaced JBJ with a guy who has even less AAA experience ( 45 games).  I like seeing the kids play..but I don't understand why the Sox management continues to rush players through the system. It's clearly not working.

    Vasquez could be an exception..but I doubt Mookie Betts will be. He's a good player..but JBJ and Boegarts both started strong as well..and look where they are.



    The story below by Pete Abraham this morning is definitely worth reading, and the chart showing the number of plate appearances in Triple-A by recent Sox prospects is rather striking.

    It wasn't very long ago that people here used to complain that the RS promoted their prospects too slowly and cautiously...recent evidence seems to say otherwise.

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/08/22/red-sox-made-rookie-mistakes-with-bogaerts-bradley/UU8BvcvtLgZNHCaonEIdoO/story.html?event=event25

    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    Watching and waiting for rookies to develop can be maddening at times! I screamed from day 1 that JBJ needed another year to season in AAA, because he was simply over matched at the plate. The fact it took the front office until now to send him back down is one of the most mystifying and irritating aspects of this wretched season. The bottom line is rookies finish cooking and can be declared ready-when they are ready. PERIOD!  This time frame frequently differs from when one might wish they would be ready, and wise leaders learn to temper their expectations and stay focused on the needs of the player, not the clubs needs. I believe JBJ needs to strengthen his body and add another year of life before he will be able to catch up to the fastballs he presently flails weakly at. He may never hit junk well, but he simply has got to be able to hit a grooved fastball when one is presented to him.

    Teakus-Carpe Veritatem!

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer


     that was a good read flapjack

    I agree with miscricket,  not enough minor league experience

    and here IMO is a big reason Y

    “I’ve never struggled like this in my life,” said Bogaerts.

    players need to struggle/ fail  and overcome

    B4 the majors to have the confidence they can do it again

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    Too much fast track, and too many excuses to allow players MLB experience too early...and finally, too many references that AAA pitching is anywhere close to MLB pitching...2 different hemispheres.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    How many guys have been star hitters at the AAA level and just were eaten alive in the big leagues...too many to count.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BogieAt12oclock. Show BogieAt12oclock's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    People should just relax and enjoy the moment. It took the SOX 86 years to win a WORLD SERIES. Hell, it could take a lot longer than that to ever see a SOX team as bad as this one. This year has raised the bar on ineptness. We're watching history. 

    In the future when the SOX are terrible again, fans can comment "this team's almost as bad as the 2014 club." It will be the yardstick for which other lousy teams will be measured.

    And somewhere Bobby V is smiling.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BogieAt12oclock. Show BogieAt12oclock's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    Btw, why aren't the SOX charging Double A ticket prices?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    In response to southpaw777's comment:


    Mookie Betts is a baseball player and has proved he can play CF. Not as good as JBJ, but still very good. Hes NOT just an IFer like you suggest.


    JBJ could be one of those players that dominate through AAA but just cant put it all together at the MLB level.


    Personally, I think he can make the adjustments and I look forward to seeing him again in September.





    One thing Xander should have taught you is that a few games does not mean he plays a position well.  Yes, mookie looks ok in center but each time he misses a ball, people will think that JBJ should have got that.  Mookie is what he is in center and most likely will not get better.  JBJ has a chance to get back a swing which can keep in around .240 with a higher risp.


    Saw JBJ play the other night and he went 0 for 4 at the time I left the game.  He looked good in the field as expected, only having to exert energy for one of several catches.  Last night he went 2 for 4.


    On a side note I think you did a nice job as a mod.  You gave your friend fourb's a long leash and banned several for less, including me.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    I wonder how the imminent signing of Rusney Castillo will affect who will be manning the OF next season. Will they give up on some of the kids?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    I'm guessing some of the kids will be packaged for a Stanton or other stud player. The Marlins would have to be knocked off their feet to let Stanton go, but I think we have the pieces to do it, including Cespedes . I like the Castillo signing and think if we can't get a Stanton deal done, he and Cespedes would solidify the OF and we might just go for a 3rd baseman stud hitter instead. There's more than one way to improve this offense.

     

     

    I wonder how the imminent signing of Rusney Castillo will affect who will be manning the OF next season. Will they give up on some of the kids?

    [/QUOTE]


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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    In response to devildavid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I wonder how the imminent signing of Rusney Castillo will affect who will be manning the OF next season. Will they give up on some of the kids?

    [/QUOTE

    I don;t think they'll give up on all the kids. One or two will go for a pitcher, I think, but Betts has been a #1 prospect, is just (or soon will be) 22 years old, and is a "proven" AAA hitter. Un addition, his unbelievable plays he has made in CF tells volumes. He's about as fast a learner as you'll ever find in a kid this age. He's a keeper. Craig, I think, has problems; health, probably. Looks terrible, but who know what an off-season rest might bring. I thin Cespedes and Betts are 2/3rds of the next reasonably stable outfield. The other on has to be a hitter.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ABQDan. Show ABQDan's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    It's called "player development" for a reason; there are a lot of things that players learn in AAA that go beyond handling an outside slider. 

    Avoiding nightmare girlfriends/groupies.  Dealing with the psychology of slumps.  Routine.  When - and how - to break routine.  How to not get tired over a season that is much longer than you experienced in college and/or wherever.  Not hiring your AAU coach's lawyer friend as your agent.  etc., etc., etc.

    This is true for any professional.  Are you good at what you do?  Don't you remember when you first started?  You showed talent, but you needed to harness that talent. 

    I have never met a person with a serious talent who did not benefit from experience. 

    Abraham's story quotes Cherington saying circumstance dictated a faster-than-usual progression.  That is terribly short-sighted and backwards.  Need we raise the hideous specter of Daniel Bard?  If you take a player and try and turn them into something they're not (and a MLB player is more than their stats, see: Gabe Kapler), or take shortcuts in their development, you are using them as cannon fodder to fill your roster.

    The Sox ought to feel embarrassed about this, and hopefully learn some lessons.  And, I'm afraid there's too much water under the bridge, JBJR will never do well in a RS uniform, and at this point I think Nava has been shown - and has shown - that he is a career AAAA player.

    Cespedes and Castillo are a good start on a professional outfield, albeit one is massively unproven.  Victorino is washed up (you think the injuries are going to stop?), Betts may turn out well, and as noted in many posts the situation indicates a trade for an established player.  The RS will put together a good outfield, trust in Ben.

    But the damaging of prospects by rushing them -- because of 'circumstances' (read: "we, uhm, didn't sign any established players") - must stop.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    In response to ABQDan's comment:

    It's called "player development" for a reason; there are a lot of things that players learn in AAA that go beyond handling an outside slider. 

    Avoiding nightmare girlfriends/groupies.  Dealing with the psychology of slumps.  Routine.  When - and how - to break routine.  How to not get tired over a season that is much longer than you experienced in college and/or wherever.  Not hiring your AAU coach's lawyer friend as your agent.  etc., etc., etc.

    This is true for any professional.  Are you good at what you do?  Don't you remember when you first started?  You showed talent, but you needed to harness that talent. 

    I have never met a person with a serious talent who did not benefit from experience. 

    Abraham's story quotes Cherington saying circumstance dictated a faster-than-usual progression.  That is terribly short-sighted and backwards.  Need we raise the hideous specter of Daniel Bard?  If you take a player and try and turn them into something they're not (and a MLB player is more than their stats, see: Gabe Kapler), or take shortcuts in their development, you are using them as cannon fodder to fill your roster.

    The Sox ought to feel embarrassed about this, and hopefully learn some lessons.  And, I'm afraid there's too much water under the bridge, JBJR will never do well in a RS uniform, and at this point I think Nava has been shown - and has shown - that he is a career AAAA player.

    Cespedes and Castillo are a good start on a professional outfield, albeit one is massively unproven.  Victorino is washed up (you think the injuries are going to stop?), Betts may turn out well, and as noted in many posts the situation indicates a trade for an established player.  The RS will put together a good outfield, trust in Ben.

    But the damaging of prospects by rushing them -- because of 'circumstances' (read: "we, uhm, didn't sign any established players") - must stop.



    It sure seemed like the right time for JBJ, with Ellsbury leaving.  JBJ has 3 years in the minors and he's 24 years old.  

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    Nicely said ABQDan! There is also the matter of physical development. Sometimes players just need some age on them. Xander is 21 yrs old and JBJ 24. Both will be stronger and better if they stay exactly the same with everything else-but age 2 yrs. There's a reason studs often hit their peaks at 27/28. I think JBJ could hit .265 someday but it's clearly not today. Xander hasn't even had a chance to add his grown up muscles yet. I think he's going to be just fine in a year or two. I slightly disagree on Nava. He had a terrible start to the season, but has been hitting a ton in the 2nd half if you've noticed. He's a very good MLB outfielder having a so-so year on a lousy team. He has value is all I'm saying.

     

     

     

    In response to ABQDan's comment:

    It's called "player development" for a reason; there are a lot of things that players learn in AAA that go beyond handling an outside slider. 

    Avoiding nightmare girlfriends/groupies.  Dealing with the psychology of slumps.  Routine.  When - and how - to break routine.  How to not get tired over a season that is much longer than you experienced in college and/or wherever.  Not hiring your AAU coach's lawyer friend as your agent.  etc., etc., etc.

    This is true for any professional.  Are you good at what you do?  Don't you remember when you first started?  You showed talent, but you needed to harness that talent. 

    I have never met a person with a serious talent who did not benefit from experience. 

    Abraham's story quotes Cherington saying circumstance dictated a faster-than-usual progression.  That is terribly short-sighted and backwards.  Need we raise the hideous specter of Daniel Bard?  If you take a player and try and turn them into something they're not (and a MLB player is more than their stats, see: Gabe Kapler), or take shortcuts in their development, you are using them as cannon fodder to fill your roster.

    The Sox ought to feel embarrassed about this, and hopefully learn some lessons.  And, I'm afraid there's too much water under the bridge, JBJR will never do well in a RS uniform, and at this point I think Nava has been shown - and has shown - that he is a career AAAA player.

    Cespedes and Castillo are a good start on a professional outfield, albeit one is massively unproven.  Victorino is washed up (you think the injuries are going to stop?), Betts may turn out well, and as noted in many posts the situation indicates a trade for an established player.  The RS will put together a good outfield, trust in Ben.

    But the damaging of prospects by rushing them -- because of 'circumstances' (read: "we, uhm, didn't sign any established players") - must stop.




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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to az55's comment:

     Between the Boston media and many poster of this forum have pretty much mugged the guy and ran him out of town. Time to give it a rest. Look at this porous club hitting as a whole and you will find it to be quite toxic to say the least. Mookie Betts is not the centerfield answer for the Sox. JBJ's defense is mystic and the right thing to do would be to shut him down and send him to Florida to work with someone like Yaz to work on his hitting. Mookie Betts is an infielder period. The more the Sox continue to work there young talent out of postion the more this has become a continued albatross.




    Really?

    I though "many" posters love watching watching play CF and are begging him to figure it out at the plate.

    I can't think of anyone that wants the kid to fail.




    I rarely agree with what you post but you're spot on here. I love JBJ and just wish he could hit .260  I dont think Mookie is the answer though -  i truly believed he's being showcased for a trade

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    How many guys have been star hitters at the AAA level and just were eaten alive in the big leagues...too many to count.




    Name just a few please.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ABQDan. Show ABQDan's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    No, I haven't been watching the season closely enough to see that Nava has picked things up.  Last year I felt that the RS pulled a championship out of the hat, and while I love them, I anticipated this year being a down year.  I live in New Mexico, and was unemployed so I didn't purchase the MLB TV package. 

    If Nava becomes a decent 3rd/4th OF, that's terrific.  However, I don't see him as a corner OF on a championship caliber team.  Would love to be wrong.

    The larger issue is the lack of player development.  During the glory years (! - nostalgia already!) of 2003-2011 (when the Sox were always at least playoff caliber teams or contenders), they developed *enough* players to fill out an upper echelon team roster around their top-market FA acquisitions.

    You're not always going to get Pedro and Manny in their prime (thank you, Dan Duquette), but here is just a casual list of guys from our system who contributed those years:

    Nomar (do not forget '03, ***ing Aaron Boone notwithstanding)
    Youk
    Pedey
    Ellsbury
    Pap

    Other players like Reddick and Lowrie had enough value to bring pieces in return.  Sure, there are also instances of things not working out, but the key to player development is getting ENOUGH GUYS WHO CAN HELP, not so much the overall batting average. 

    The last few years the Red Sox not only haven't developed enough guys who can help, they have had a specific situation occur much more frequently: intensely negative experiences for prospects who are not put in situations where they can succeed.  Or in plainer terms, they have mentally messed up a bunch of guys.

    Middlebrooks
    Bard
    JBJR

    We are all holding our breath on Bogaerts, but the Abraham story had some very simple #s about AAA at-bats, and with all due respect to him, I'm sure that if Pete Abraham is running with a story, he is well behind day-in day-out MLB staff in his thinking. 

    Even Cherington said "circumstances dictated" bringing them up too quickly.  In other words, "we made a mistake."

    That mistake better stop, or we're going to find out what it means to have a dry talent pipeline and have to rely on the FA market, where the RS are no longer the dream-landing-spot they once were.  Remember the Tony Armas / Mike Marshall days?  I do.  Please, let's not go back.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: JBJ bashing and i doubt Mookie Betts has the answer

    Who makes out the Sox lineup---it must be a former pitcher?

    After losing 8 in a row to me Betts and Holt and Pedroia have to be the first three batters.

    Having Mookie bat after Craig, Nava(batting RH) and WMB and before Vaz is beyond me.

     
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