JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

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    In response to trouts' comment:
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    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    They will miss his base running ability even more than his bat. Every time Ellsbury gets on base, the pitcher gets spooked; next hitter has big advantage. 

    Not always. Sometimes a batter is "spooked" by a runner taking off and feels like he has to protect the runner, thereby changing his swing and approach, but your point is well taken. Jacoby on the bases will be missed.

     

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    Pretty much disagree here. The next batter is certainly not going to get a breaking ball in the dirt. He'll most likely get a heater so that the catcher has a better chance to throw the runner out.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I think there are times when a hitter tries to protect a breaking runner, especially on a hit and run. Sometimes, he swings at balls out of the strike zone, so the runner will not be thrown out.

    I do think the pluses of a great base stealer like Jacoby far outweigh the occaisonal minuses.

    [/QUOTE]

    Wanted to get back to you on an earlier post. Often times you assert that Ellsbury would get a lousy jump on the ball and take bad routes. Usually your posts are well researched and documented, so I'm wondering what's the proof of that? I never saw that and I've heard that comment repeated ad nauseum. When I watched the games he seemed to get to balls few outfielders in the game would get to. Even if he took the Mass Pike to get to balls, who cares as long as he caught them?

    [/QUOTE]

    I've heard multiple times myself about scouts not liking Ellsburys routes to balls.  No One can take away his speed, which hides some of that judegment.  But scouts are in love with Bradelys defense.  He was regarded as the best defensive player in MLB's top 100 prospects. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    They will miss his base running ability even more than his bat. Every time Ellsbury gets on base, the pitcher gets spooked; next hitter has big advantage. 

    Not always. Sometimes a batter is "spooked" by a runner taking off and feels like he has to protect the runner, thereby changing his swing and approach, but your point is well taken. Jacoby on the bases will be missed.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Pretty much disagree here. The next batter is certainly not going to get a breaking ball in the dirt. He'll most likely get a heater so that the catcher has a better chance to throw the runner out.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I think there are times when a hitter tries to protect a breaking runner, especially on a hit and run. Sometimes, he swings at balls out of the strike zone, so the runner will not be thrown out.

    I do think the pluses of a great base stealer like Jacoby far outweigh the occaisonal minuses.

    [/QUOTE]

    Wanted to get back to you on an earlier post. Often times you assert that Ellsbury would get a lousy jump on the ball and take bad routes. Usually your posts are well researched and documented, so I'm wondering what's the proof of that? I never saw that and I've heard that comment repeated ad nauseum. When I watched the games he seemed to get to balls few outfielders in the game would get to. Even if he took the Mass Pike to get to balls, who cares as long as he caught them?

    [/QUOTE]

    I've heard multiple times myself about scouts not liking Ellsburys routes to balls.  No One can take away his speed, which hides some of that judegment.  But scouts are in love with Bradelys defense.  He was regarded as the best defensive player in MLB's top 100 prospects. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Personal observations.

    A somewhat low range factor on some metrics for someone with his speed.

    As I have said numerous times, he improved in this area since 2007.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    Another thing to take into account as well is saying that JBJ will be a defensive upgrade over Ellsbury is'nt a knock on Ellsburys defense; rather it is more of an indication of how good every pro evaluator thinks JBJ's defense will be. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    I have never been in the bashing-of-Elssbury camp.  I really appreciate everything he brought to the table in his time with the Sox.  But, I really believe his defense is overrated.  His raw speed will get him the odd web gem and also make him effective by most metrics.  But, just anecdotal observation here, he has (still) hitches his CF giidyup.  His routes:significantly better over the years, but, I think he overcompensated in the name of conservative play because he doesnt have innate tracking sense.  So, in recent years, i think he started laying up on a lot of balls he could easily get to.  Now, I am not saying he is not a plus CF.  His uncanny wheels make him better than most.  But between his lack of intuitive tracking and lollypop arm, I don't think it is far fetched at all to think JBJ could be better.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    They will miss his base running ability even more than his bat. Every time Ellsbury gets on base, the pitcher gets spooked; next hitter has big advantage. 

    Not always. Sometimes a batter is "spooked" by a runner taking off and feels like he has to protect the runner, thereby changing his swing and approach, but your point is well taken. Jacoby on the bases will be missed.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Pretty much disagree here. The next batter is certainly not going to get a breaking ball in the dirt. He'll most likely get a heater so that the catcher has a better chance to throw the runner out.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I think there are times when a hitter tries to protect a breaking runner, especially on a hit and run. Sometimes, he swings at balls out of the strike zone, so the runner will not be thrown out.

    I do think the pluses of a great base stealer like Jacoby far outweigh the occaisonal minuses.

    [/QUOTE]

    Wanted to get back to you on an earlier post. Often times you assert that Ellsbury would get a lousy jump on the ball and take bad routes. Usually your posts are well researched and documented, so I'm wondering what's the proof of that? I never saw that and I've heard that comment repeated ad nauseum. When I watched the games he seemed to get to balls few outfielders in the game would get to. Even if he took the Mass Pike to get to balls, who cares as long as he caught them?

    [/QUOTE]

    I've heard multiple times myself about scouts not liking Ellsburys routes to balls.  No One can take away his speed, which hides some of that judegment.  But scouts are in love with Bradelys defense.  He was regarded as the best defensive player in MLB's top 100 prospects. 

    [/QUOTE]


    He is a joy to watch and fans will appreciate his arm. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I have never been in the bashing-of-Elssbury camp.  I really appreciate everything he brought to the table in his time with the Sox.  But, I really believe his defense is overrated.  His raw speed will get him the odd web gem and also make him effective by most metrics.  But, just anecdotal observation here, he has (still) hitches his CF giidyup.  His routes:significantly better over the years, but, I think he overcompensated in the name of conservative play because he doesnt have innate tracking sense.  So, in recent years, i think he started laying up on a lot of balls he could easily get to.  Now, I am not saying he is not a plus CF.  His uncanny wheels make him better than most.  But between his lack of intuitive tracking and lollypop arm, I don't think it is far fetched at all to think JBJ could be better.

    [/QUOTE]

    Pretty close to my feelings. I do think there were plays that jacoby made look easy with his speed that others would never have gotten to, so that helped overcome some of his faults.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I have never been in the bashing-of-Elssbury camp.  I really appreciate everything he brought to the table in his time with the Sox.  But, I really believe his defense is overrated.  His raw speed will get him the odd web gem and also make him effective by most metrics.  But, just anecdotal observation here, he has (still) hitches his CF giidyup.  His routes:significantly better over the years, but, I think he overcompensated in the name of conservative play because he doesnt have innate tracking sense.  So, in recent years, i think he started laying up on a lot of balls he could easily get to.  Now, I am not saying he is not a plus CF.  His uncanny wheels make him better than most.  But between his lack of intuitive tracking and lollypop arm, I don't think it is far fetched at all to think JBJ could be better.

    [/QUOTE]

    Pretty close to my feelings. I do think there were plays that jacoby made look easy with his speed that others would never have gotten to, so that helped overcome some of his faults.

    [/QUOTE]


    I have no problem with jacoby and will cheer him if I am lucky enough to be at one of games.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to steven11's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I have never been in the bashing-of-Elssbury camp.  I really appreciate everything he brought to the table in his time with the Sox.  But, I really believe his defense is overrated.  His raw speed will get him the odd web gem and also make him effective by most metrics.  But, just anecdotal observation here, he has (still) hitches his CF giidyup.  His routes:significantly better over the years, but, I think he overcompensated in the name of conservative play because he doesnt have innate tracking sense.  So, in recent years, i think he started laying up on a lot of balls he could easily get to.  Now, I am not saying he is not a plus CF.  His uncanny wheels make him better than most.  But between his lack of intuitive tracking and lollypop arm, I don't think it is far fetched at all to think JBJ could be better.

    [/QUOTE]

    Pretty close to my feelings. I do think there were plays that jacoby made look easy with his speed that others would never have gotten to, so that helped overcome some of his faults.

    [/QUOTE]


    I have no problem with jacoby and will cheer him if I am lucky enough to be at one of games.

    [/QUOTE]

    no question steven.  I don't begrudge him moving on for a bigger pay day.  

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    Wanted to get back to you on an earlier post. Often times you assert that Ellsbury would get a lousy jump on the ball and take bad routes. Usually your posts are well researched and documented, so I'm wondering what's the proof of that? I never saw that and I've heard that comment repeated ad nauseum. When I watched the games he seemed to get to balls few outfielders in the game would get to. Even if he took the Mass Pike to get to balls, who cares as long as he caught them?

    [/QUOTE]

    I've heard multiple times myself about scouts not liking Ellsburys routes to balls.  No One can take away his speed, which hides some of that judegment.  But scouts are in love with Bradelys defense.  He was regarded as the best defensive player in MLB's top 100 prospects. 

    [/QUOTE]

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/360304-2010-red-sox-preview-how-will-jacoby-ellsbury-respond-to-change

    Lastly, his rating is counterintuitive to the general perception of his abilities...and anything that is counterintuitive will generally not take hold in the public consciousness. Red Sox Nation regularly observes Ellsbury making dynamic catches in right- and left-center fields; therefore, these metrics cannot be correct.

    But those who have developed the metric explain he typically gets below-average jumps, takes bad routes to the ball, and has a below-average arm. They argue that the observations of the untrained eye are incorrect.

    http://umpbump.com/press/2009/07/22/jacoby-ellsbury-secretly-sucks-at-defense/

    So imagine my surprise today when, in the course of a quibble with a coworker about the (in)utility of fielding percentage, I noticed that Jacoby Ellsbury has the second-lowest UZR of any major league centerfielder. Now, he’s not half as bad as the worst centerfielder, Vernon Wells, who weighs in at -20.4, but Ellsbury’s -8.5 is shocking. And appalling.

    And while last year, in 546.2 innings, his UZR was at least positive (an even 3.0), that’s still nothing to write home about.

    I can only conclude that I — along with Boston’s more sober-faced, straight-laced commentators — have been bamboozled, fooled, duped by our own eyes.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    I've heard multiple times myself about scouts not liking Ellsburys routes to balls.  No One can take away his speed, which hides some of that judegment.  But scouts are in love with Bradelys defense.  He was regarded as the best defensive player in MLB's top 100 prospects. 

    [/QUOTE]

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/360304-2010-red-sox-preview-how-will-jacoby-ellsbury-respond-to-change

    Lastly, his rating is counterintuitive to the general perception of his abilities...and anything that is counterintuitive will generally not take hold in the public consciousness. Red Sox Nation regularly observes Ellsbury making dynamic catches in right- and left-center fields; therefore, these metrics cannot be correct.

    But those who have developed the metric explain he typically gets below-average jumps, takes bad routes to the ball, and has a below-average arm. They argue that the observations of the untrained eye are incorrect.

    http://umpbump.com/press/2009/07/22/jacoby-ellsbury-secretly-sucks-at-defense/

    So imagine my surprise today when, in the course of a quibble with a coworker about the (in)utility of fielding percentage, I noticed that Jacoby Ellsbury has the second-lowest UZR of any major league centerfielder. Now, he’s not half as bad as the worst centerfielder, Vernon Wells, who weighs in at -20.4, but Ellsbury’s -8.5 is shocking. And appalling.

    And while last year, in 546.2 innings, his UZR was at least positive (an even 3.0), that’s still nothing to write home about.

    I can only conclude that I — along with Boston’s more sober-faced, straight-laced commentators — have been bamboozled, fooled, duped by our own eyes

     

    My perspective...

    For years and years boom and I were Jacoby's biggest supporters, most notably against the continuous "Jake" bashing by softy the clown. You guys all know my history with the clown, so it does not come easy for me to say that during those "great debates", softy mentioned how Jacoby gets slow breaks on many balls hit in his direction and often takes bad routes on balls hit to CF. I didn't want to believe it. However, after closer observation, I did notice what I felt were "more-than-the-norm" bad breaks and angles. 

    It was not a bias against Ellsbury that led me to that conclusion, in fact, if anything, I was biased towards Jacoby, and it would have made me look better had I determined that Ellsbury got great breaks and took great angles on balls hit his way. Then, I looked at the data, such as RF/9 and the range portion of UZR/150, and it supported the view that even with Jacoby's tremendous speed, his range did not match what it perhaps should have been.

    From 2007 to 2009 there were 30 CF'ers with 1500+ innings. Jacoby finished tied for 12th at +2.6 in the RngR component of UZR. While being 12th out of 30 is not bad, especially for your first 3 years in MLB, with Jacoby's speed, it makes sense that the reason he was not top 3, had to be because of bad breaks and bad angles. The number supported my more recent observations and softy's long-standing position. (Note: his poor arm- which everyone agree he has always had- brought his overall UZR/150 rating to #18 at -0.9).

    I continued to closely watch Jacoby in CF, much as I try and closely watch SS defense. There are times, the TV angle from behind the plate shows a hit to CF, and you are able to see the CF'er in the same frame. It appeared to me that Jacoby was continuing to get bad breaks and take bad angles, but at a lesser rate as the years went by. I'm not sure if he ever got to the "norm", because it is hard for me or anyone else to watch every play to  every Cf'er over a season, so again, I turned to the data. Sure enough, the same metrics showed a vast improvement in comparative terms, in fact it showed Jacoby number 1 in RngR at +39.4 (perhaps not #1 in RngR per inning played, however). His UZR/150 the last 4 years was +13.7, which placed him 3rd in MLB out of the 34 CF'ers with 1500+ innings, despite having the worst ARM factor in MLB (Cf'ers with 3200+ innings). Clearly, he improved on that weakness. His speed probably helped a lot, but I seriously doubt it could bring him up to #3, if he was continuing to get bad breaks and take bad angles at a high rate. My guess is, he probably became about average or slightly above average in breaks/angles and his speed bumped him up to the top 3.

    Looking at the overall numbers with the Sox from 2007 to 2013, Jacoby placed 4th in UZR/150 out of the 29 CF'ers with 3000+ innings at +8.0. He tied for 3rd in RngR at +42.0, which is not broken down into RngR/150. (Note: he had the second worst ARM.)

    The recent Jacoby was certainly a big plus on defense, a big plus on the bases, and had a decent OBP for a leadoff hitter. he showed good power at times, but was inconsistent in that area. We are going to miss a lot of the unsung aspects of Jacoby's skillset, but I do think JBJ can start off at a better defensive place than jacoby did in 2007. He may not be as good as the 2013 Jacoby (7th in UZR/150), but soon he very well could be. I'd bet he will be better than Jacoby's overall Sox UZR/150 of +8.0 by year 2 or 3.

     

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    moon,

    my two cents on young outfielders with regards to taking the proper routes on balls..It's fairly common knowledge that the biggest adjustment for them is learning to read and track the ball off the bat in larger major league parks with upper decks, brighter lights and all of the other fan / promotional info that flashes across the second decks. Which impacts both thier ability to see the ball itself and thier depth perception. An adjustment that takes about a full season before they can then fall back on thier instincts and simply, read, react and go get the ball. 

    What both Ellsbury and Bradley have in common is both were rated our #1 defensive prospect. Bradley, not unlike Ellsbury, will also have to learn to play CF in the big leagues, in one of the tougher parks given all of the oddities that define Fenway. Something that might take most of the 2014 season. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    moon,

    my two cents on young outfielders with regards to taking the proper routes on balls..It's fairly common knowledge that the biggest adjustment for them is learning to read and track the ball off the bat in larger major league parks with upper decks, brighter lights and all of the other fan / promotional info that flashes across the second decks. Which impacts both thier ability to see the ball itself and thier depth perception. An adjustment that takes about a full season before they can then fall back on thier instincts and simply, read, react and go get the ball. 

    What both Ellsbury and Bradley have in common is both were rated our #1 defensive prospect. Bradley, not unlike Ellsbury, will also have to learn to play CF in the big leagues, in one of the tougher parks given all of the oddities that define Fenway. Something that might take most of the 2014 season. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Well said.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    moon,

    my two cents on young outfielders with regards to taking the proper routes on balls..It's fairly common knowledge that the biggest adjustment for them is learning to read and track the ball off the bat in larger major league parks with upper decks, brighter lights and all of the other fan / promotional info that flashes across the second decks. Which impacts both thier ability to see the ball itself and thier depth perception. An adjustment that takes about a full season before they can then fall back on thier instincts and simply, read, react and go get the ball. 

    What both Ellsbury and Bradley have in common is both were rated our #1 defensive prospect. Bradley, not unlike Ellsbury, will also have to learn to play CF in the big leagues, in one of the tougher parks given all of the oddities that define Fenway. Something that might take most of the 2014 season. 

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not 100% disagreeing with this statement, I think it is mostly true but I want to just add to it a bit.  

    Obviously nothing compares to MLB ballparks but there are minor league and even college parks that give players the same experience of getting lights in their eyes and test their ability to play in new dimensions.

    So I wonder if it would really take someone like JBJ a whole season to adjust.  He's spent his entire life moving up from HS to College to different levels of Minor League ball.  He also played at a top college (South Carolina) where he saw time in the playoffs and a championship run.  It's not the same, but it is something.

    But like I said, he will go through a learning process throughout the year.  He is a rookie still, but some rookies are rookies of the year.  I'm not saying he is going to be rookie of the year, but I do have confidence that he can step in and be a plus defender relatively quick.  I don't think he will win a GG next year right off the bat....but he will be good.

    But to go back to your point, he is still learning...even on defense.  As elite as his defense is I'm sure he still has more to learn, and I view that as a good thing because he seems willing to learn, and highly coachable. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    This business of getting bad breaks and taking bad routes to balls is greatly overstated.  The bottom line is that he gets to balls that most CF's don't get to.  Late last season I saw Victorino - a pretty fair CF in his own right - play that position and I saw balls Vic didn't get to that I thought Ellsbury would have had.

    Frankly, I don't care if Ellsbury picked his nose, scratched his a-s and took a route to the ball that involved circling third base four times as long as he got to the ball - which he did/does more than most CF's in the game.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This business of getting bad breaks and taking bad routes to balls is greatly overstated.  The bottom line is that he gets to balls that most CF's don't get to.  Late last season I saw Victorino - a pretty fair CF in his own right - play that position and I saw balls Vic didn't get to that I thought Ellsbury would have had.

    Frankly, I don't care if Ellsbury picked his nose, scratched his a-s and took a route to the ball that involved circling third base four times as long as he got to the ball - which he did/does more than most CF's in the game.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree, except early in his ML career, he was not getting to more balls than most CF'ers, and anytime someone pointed that out, they were often criticized for seeing things that were not there.

    His last 3-4 years here were excellent fielding years, despite the horrible arm.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    I generally agree.  It seems that Ellsbury's defense is over rated by some and under rated by many more. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    Here's what I think I know about Ellsbury, weak arm or no weak arm.

    If you want to give me eight players who are as good at their relative positions as Ellsbury is in CF I'll take those players and take my chances going into the regular season. 

    If those same eight players can be as good offensively at their relative positions in the batting order as Ellsbury is at leading off  I'll again take my chances and I'll be betting money on a WS victory.

    -all pitching staffs being equal, of course.

    That "weak arm" business is overrated and takes away from everything else Ellsbury brings to the game. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This business of getting bad breaks and taking bad routes to balls is greatly overstated.  The bottom line is that he gets to balls that most CF's don't get to.  Late last season I saw Victorino - a pretty fair CF in his own right - play that position and I saw balls Vic didn't get to that I thought Ellsbury would have had.

    Frankly, I don't care if Ellsbury picked his nose, scratched his a-s and took a route to the ball that involved circling third base four times as long as he got to the ball - which he did/does more than most CF's in the game.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good post. Pretty much the way I see it. I'll root for Bradley to do well but folks who insist he is the equal to or superior to Ellsbury in any category other than arm strenth may be premature in that judgment. Certainly to this point his MLB experience is scanty, so how he'll handle the pressure of life in "the Bigs", especially in Beantown, can only be guessed at.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Here's what I think I know about Ellsbury, weak arm or no weak arm.

    If you want to give me eight players who are as good at their relative positions as Ellsbury is in CF I'll take those players and take my chances going into the regular season. 

    If those same eight players can be as good offensively at their relative positions in the batting order as Ellsbury is at leading off  I'll again take my chances and I'll be betting money on a WS victory.

    -all pitching staffs being equal, of course.

    That "weak arm" business is overrated and takes away from everything else Ellsbury brings to the game. 

    [/QUOTE]

    I didn't mean to imply that Jacoby's horrible arm made him an overall negative, in fact, I said he was "recently and excellent fielder".

    I'd love to have 9 Jacoby's, but we can't afford just one.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    Good post. Pretty much the way I see it. I'll root for Bradley to do well but folks who insist he is the equal to or superior to Ellsbury in any category other than arm strenth may be premature in that judgment. Certainly to this point his MLB experience is scanty, so how he'll handle the pressure of life in "the Bigs", especially in Beantown, can only be guessed at.

    The scouts all say he has "great defesnive instincts" or "gets great breaks on balls", or "great reads"...

    I'm trusing their expertise. 

    My own personal sample size viewings is too small for me to know anything for sure, but from what I have read, I think he will start off better than Jacoby did back in 2007 to 2008. Whether he improves as much as Ellsbury did remains to be seen, but in my opinion, if he does, he will end up as a better overall defender than  the present day Jacoby after 2-3 years.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    I'm not 100% disagreeing with this statement, I think it is mostly true but I want to just add to it a bit.  

    Obviously nothing compares to MLB ballparks but there are minor league and even college parks that give players the same experience of getting lights in their eyes and test their ability to play in new dimensions.

    So I wonder if it would really take someone like JBJ a whole season to adjust.  He's spent his entire life moving up from HS to College to different levels of Minor League ball.  He also played at a top college (South Carolina) where he saw time in the playoffs and a championship run.  It's not the same, but it is something.

    But like I said, he will go through a learning process throughout the year.  He is a rookie still, but some rookies are rookies of the year.  I'm not saying he is going to be rookie of the year, but I do have confidence that he can step in and be a plus defender relatively quick.  I don't think he will win a GG next year right off the bat....but he will be good.

    But to go back to your point, he is still learning...even on defense.  As elite as his defense is I'm sure he still has more to learn, and I view that as a good thing because he seems willing to learn, and highly coachable. 

    CT,

    I agree that Bradley will be / should be a plus defensive player and wouldn't be surprised if his name is in the conversation for ROY. As a rule I try not to get caught up in projecting an unknown. The kid has earned the opportunity and posseses key tangibles like work ethic and four of the five tools, with very good plate disipline. I also don't want to place limits on his upside either. Suffice to say that beginning in a few weeks the kid will get a very long look and baring another transaction the CF job is his to lose. His defense is one of the reasons he's on the cusp, the question now is can he compete at the big league level, Make the nessesary adjustments and hit. Clearly Cherington and Farrel both think he's ready or they would have already acquired a proven big league CF. My guess is he has until June 1st or 200 at bats to settle in and prove that he is indeed the CF of the now and the entire 2014 season to cement his spot as the CF of the future.

    http://www.soxprospects.com/players/bradley-jackie.htm

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    My guess is he has until June 1st or 200 at bats to settle in and prove that he is indeed the CF of the now and the entire 2014 season to cement his spot as the CF of the future.

    Unless he's hitting .100, I think he'll get 300+ PAs before a move might be made. Let's hope we aren't talking abou this come July.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    My guess is he has until June 1st or 200 at bats to settle in and prove that he is indeed the CF of the now and the entire 2014 season to cement his spot as the CF of the future.

    Unless he's hitting .100, I think he'll get 300+ PAs before a move might be made. Let's hope we aren't talking abou this come July.

    [/QUOTE]

    that was my point....if he's hitting .100 after 200 at bats he'll be riding the pawtucket shuttle...

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: JBJ described as a defensive upgrade over Jacoby

    The bottom line is that for Jackie to be the regular center fielder, he will have to produce on offense. If he does not, it will not be sufficient to say that he is better than Ellsbury defensively. Let's keep in mind that in his first five years in Boston, Ellsbury had a fielding percentage of .998, the highest in history. True, his arm is weak, but it is accurate. He won the Gold Glove in 2011. I know that some discount fielding percentage and Gold Gloves in favor of other metrics. But one should not simply discount those things. Again, in 2011, Ellsbury led all AL outfielders in putouts, while playing errorless ball. All that despite apparently taking bad routes, laying up on bloopers and avoiding the wall. Maybe he was just lucky that so many balls were hit right at him. I truly hope that Bradley is better. And, if he is , he will be a lot of fun to watch. The thing that concerns me here is that some may be touting his defense because they lack confidence in his offense. Personally, I think that he will hit in MLB, just as he has at every other level. The Sox should not panic if he starts slowly. The ability is there. Will he be a better all around player than Ellsbury? Possible , but maybe not probable. Only time will tell. 

     
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