Jenks.......what's the deal?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

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    [QUOTE]It was fairly well documentated that Theo was trying to deal/replace Paps....not speculation.....
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]I have MLBTradeRumors as an iPhone ap an d they seem to pick-up every piece of loose lint, including writers just saying they think something should happen. And at no time this offseason do I recall Papelbon's name being attached to any credible alert that ever suggested that the RS had made or taken any calls about Jonathan Papelbon.

    SI is the only outlet to ever report anything and their report lacked the names of any teams etc and further went on to say that RS plan was to sign Soriano who eventually signed with the NYY if a trade could be accomplished.

    Can't find anybody connecting Jenks signing as the replacement for Papelbon, only that he would add an additional option to Bard who is assumed after all to be the heir apparent if Boston can't find acceptable terms to retain Papelbon.

    The Papelbon speculation started in ernest I think when the RS made a serious bid for Rivera. Now replacing Papelbon with Rivera is a whole lot different than Jenks IMO.

    But FWIW this what Epstein said about the signing at the time:

    "We feel really lucky that Bobby wanted to pitch here, and we were able to get someone of his caliber to join our bullpen and help Dan Bard set up for Pap," Epstein said. "It's not every day you can bring in someone of his caliber without a closer opening. We feel lucky that it happened."
     

    If you wish to believe that Jenks was signed to be the unchallenged closer probably little could be done to change that.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

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    Unchallenged closer?  When did I ever say that?  No, sir those are your words only, sorry.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

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    Slow down there qball - when did I spew venom on Theo?  I have given him plenty of credit for certain things.  But if you think that Cameron and Jenks were quality signings with any bit of rationale to them then I we can simply differ on that point.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

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    Theo has really signed some doozies (Cam/Smoltz, Drew/Lackey, All the inadequate shortstops in North America) but he is also the guy who has given us awesome home-grown players and some longshots like Miller/Salty that seem to be helping us...but the bottom line is that John Henry has the cash to let Theo sign AGON, Crawford, and other players who he covets...and that doesnt take a lot of skill imho

    but he has constructed this team to win it all and I respect that...also some things not mentioned are the players he has given away (addition thru subtraction....Manny/Jbay)

    I say THUMBS UP!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

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    I am not a so-called theo lover. But i DO love winning, so i guess you could say i love theo.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

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    It just goes to show how difficult it is to project relievers.  I never saw Jenks as necessarily a replacement for Papelbon, but I did see him in the mix as leverage.  Albers, Aceves, Wheeler, Rich Hill, Okajima, Dennys Reyes, the Professor and Maryann - they're all leverage.  Jenks just stands out because he's: 1. More costly; 2. More portly.  3. Has a history of histrionics. 

    To just focus on Jenks and deem Theo an idiot for signing Jenks is idiotic without looking at the bigger picture.  The bigger picture is the bullpen is deep and effective.  It's just difficult to tell year to year who is going to step up and who is not.  Didn't you guys ever play Monopoly?  You still buy everything you can first go-rounds because you don't know if it's Boardwalk or Ventnor Avenue that's going to take the other guy down. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

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    [QUOTE]It just goes to show how difficult it is to project relievers.  I never saw Jenks as necessarily a replacement for Papelbon, but I did see him in the mix as leverage.  Albers, Aceves, Wheeler, Rich Hill, Okajima, Dennys Reyes, the Professor and Maryann - they're all leverage.  Jenks just stands out because he's: 1. More costly; 2. More portly.  3. Has a history of histrionics.  To just focus on Jenks and deem Theo an idiot for signing Jenks is idiotic without looking at the bigger picture.  The bigger picture is the bullpen is deep and effective.  It's just difficult to tell year to year who is going to step up and who is not.  Didn't you guys ever play Monopoly?  You still buy everything you can first go-rounds because you don't know if it's Boardwalk or Ventnor Avenue that's going to take the other guy down. 
    Posted by Sheriff-Rojas[/QUOTE]Great analogy.

    Building bullpens is about over stocking and hoping that 6 guys actually stick. Injury issues are part of the quotient (Hill, jenks and earlier Wheeler). Dead out busts like Reyes also factor in.

    Of all the things GM's do relievers are the hardest to project and therefore it has the greatest element of luck involved.

    After the 2009 season the board was screaming for the RS to go after Gonzalez and Soriano. Gonzalez has been a non-factor for his entire stay in Baltimore to date and while Soriano gave Tampa a great 2010, the NYY are probably wishing the Tampa mafia did not over rule Cashman on that one.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Diamondtalk. Show Diamondtalk's posts

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    Jenks :      A plump lemon.   Theo got fleeced.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

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    [QUOTE]3 times this year on the DL. Fluke happenings or sign of bad pickup? I wanted and expected this guy to have some sort of impact. Will it happen?
    Posted by sday4x4[/QUOTE]

    My least favorite manager is Ozzie and I have no clue why he is still the WS manager but one thing he doesn't tolerate is a slacker and is always the first to tell you.  

    Jenks was a bad signing!
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

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    [QUOTE]Theo has really signed some doozies (Cam/Smoltz, Drew/Lackey, All the inadequate shortstops in North America) but he is also the guy who has given us awesome home-grown players and some longshots like Miller/Salty that seem to be helping us...but the bottom line is that John Henry has the cash to let Theo sign AGON, Crawford, and other players who he covets...and that doesnt take a lot of skill imho but he has constructed this team to win it all and I respect that...also some things not mentioned are the players he has given away (addition thru subtraction....Manny/Jbay) I say THUMBS UP!
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]NJo doubt signing Crawford doesn't take a lot of skill and before it is over he may be the next JD Drew in this forum, I guy who never lives up to the expectations attached to the contract.

    But the AGon deal does take some skill. Crafting a deal that would be acceptable to the Padres required skill and the prospects acquired through the draft and international signings. And the ability to put together a deal that would be CBT friendly (extension signed after the season began) is skillful as well. Having the $160M or so it took to sign that deal, that is the benefit of working for the Sox.

    There are IMO big pros and some cons to being a GM in Boston or NY or any $125M plus payroll budget team for that matter.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

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    I don't think Billy Beane would complain for a minute if he had a 125 million dollar payroll.........
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

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    [QUOTE]I don't think Billy Beane would complain for a minute if he had a 125 million dollar payroll.........
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    Beane hasn't been that great the last few years.  Sure he's working with a small payroll.  But in the flip he did with Matt Holliday he gave up Carlos Gonzalez and Huston Street and got absolute zilch in return...pretty serious blunder.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

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    [QUOTE]I don't think Billy Beane would complain for a minute if he had a 125 million dollar payroll.........
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]True but he'd also have some high ticket under performing contracts on his resume too.

    If he had that kind of budget there is no way Mulder, Zito, Hudson, Tejada, Giambi, Foulke all walk.

    Beane is one of my great pet peeves in how much he was canonized in the book Moneyball and now there is movie coming out I guess. His situation was pretty idyllic at the time the book was written. A pitching staff with 3 great starters all under team control and superstars under his control in Giambi and Tejeda.

    In terms of $$$ to have them at free market price would have cost about $80M a year if you figure $35M for the two hitters and $45M for the three pitchers. 

    He's a good GM. But much of what he does the RS do even with their budget. Spend many of their draft picks on college players because the projection is more reliable and the time to MLB is less. Put high value on OBP, WHIP, BABIP etc.

    The hub-bub really was about a guy with a roster chalked full of high quality, arbitration years pitchers and he has come close again once or twice but right now Tampa not Oakland is the model because they are sitting where he was. 

    In today's $$$ to have them at free market price would have cost about $80M a year if you figure $35M for the two hitters and $45M for the three pitchers.

    The "luxury" he has is let's those guys walk and has to restock. When his team scuffles for a few years nobody questions what he is doing, versus the pressure in big budget cities to win now and win always, therefore having to sign those players or sign like players.

    And FWIW Billy Beane had the Boston job in hand before he got cold feet and it was given to young Mr. Epstein. Something beyond just relocating his family may or may not have been in play but he could have been the RS GM, he was the Trio's first choice. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jenks.......what's the deal? : Great analogy. Building bullpens is about over stocking and hoping that 6 guys actually stick. Injury issues are part of the quotient (Hill, jenks and earlier Wheeler). Dead out busts like Reyes also factor in. Of all the things GM's do relievers are the hardest to project and therefore it has the greatest element of luck involved. After the 2009 season the board was screaming for the RS to go after Gonzalez and Soriano. Gonzalez has been a non-factor for his entire stay in Baltimore to date and while Soriano gave Tampa a great 2010, the NYY are probably wishing the Tampa mafia did not over rule Cashman on that one.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Fivekatz, you continue to make well thought out points and they get greeted with the nonsense from the anti Theo crowd.  You are an adult talking to children.
     
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    [QUOTE]Jenks :      A plump lemon.   Theo got fleeced.
    Posted by Diamondtalk[/QUOTE]

    Exhibit A
     
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    [QUOTE]Jenks :      A plump lemon.   Theo got fleeced.
    Posted by Diamondtalk[/QUOTE



    AGAIN!
     
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    [QUOTE]3 times this year on the DL. Fluke happenings or sign of bad pickup? I wanted and expected this guy to have some sort of impact. Will it happen?
    Posted by sday4x4[/QUOTE]

    One of those years, it happens.... Hopefully he is not totally finished but I liked the idea of signing him and he's been bad. But he's not healthy and maybe not been for quite some time and resulted in alot of bad innings pitched...

    We cant move him thats for sure, just gotta hope he turns it on and gets lucky with his health and provides more relief for us. Bullpen has been great so far, really cant get over how great that Matt Albers is working out and it's a real shame we lost Hill after how good he pitched.  Wheeler has been pretty good since returning from the DL after being horrible before going on it.   Bard is the future and just lights out while Papelbon is not the pitcher he was and I believe we should move on from him..


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from rickerd2. Show rickerd2's posts

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    Albers is one of those guys brought in with the hopes of something good happeneing, and it did.  Sign em, roll the dice.

    How often does a guy have an ERA under two, and then we never see him again as he posts ERAs over 5 for the years after signing a big contract?  Relievers are fickle, lucky, whatever.  

    Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes your the bug.  Sometimes you're the Louisville slugger, sometimes you're the ball.  Happens to the best and worst of GMs.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

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    [QUOTE]i would have to agree with the yazzer when it comes to theo's performance as a gm. Yes he is good at draft players(though i think that would be more because of their scout) but i will give him some credit for that. But when it comes to fa signings theo its one of the worst in baseball. All you have to do is look a the signings he has made. lackey, jenks, crawford, wheeler, lugo, clement, drew, cameron, penny, smoltz, renteria, scutaro, dice k, all were made by theo. Most recently his biggest mistake occured 2 offseasons ago when he signed john lackey over matt holliday. Huge mistake which lead to another huge mistake this past offseason in carl crawford. Now i am not saying crawford is a bad player by any means, but the problem i have with theo signing him is the cost and most of all how he fits into this team. He is a 1-2 hitter and is pretty much another jacoby ellsbury. What we need for LF was a right handed hitting middle of the order batt. Enter Matt Holliday. Holliday would have fit way better than crawford on this team. Having a player with crawfords skill set hitting 6th makes no sense. I understand why theo wanted him because he is good defensively and gets hits and steals bases, but you have to look at how the player fits on your team especially when signing a guy to a massive contract like the one crawford got.And if theo had done so he would have seen that clearly he was not a fit. Now there is talk of the sox being in on hunter pence.(which makes sense) So assuming we get pence, he would bat 6th after oritz which pushes crawford to the 7th spot. That is fine for the rest of this year as crawfords average is terrible. But come next year changes will have to be made. And if theo wants to right the ship he will have to trade ellsbury or let ortiz go and move pence and crawford up one spot and use the dh spot for someone like ryan lavarnway. The point i am trying to make is that the crawford signing has messed things up for the sox for years to come. And that signing came under theo epstiens watch. (as did many other poor signings)
    Posted by redsoxpride34[/QUOTE]

    As I already clearly stated, Theo isn't the one who gets the final call on making such moves. Because he runs a team owned by people who spend money on payroll and DEMAND annual team success, Theo is forced to acquire at least some players he otherwise would have passed on. If he were on a team with lesser demands, he would have a much higher FA "success" rate, but his teams wouldn't win annually. It's one or the other...until you can name me a single GM who has done both, LAY OFF THEO.

    Try disproving my logic with actual evidence...all the people who criticize Theo ever say is "look at all the bad signings he's made!", while ignoring the good signings he's made, as well as my non-disproven point that HE HAS TO SIGN PEOPLE HE OTHERWISE WOULDN'T. If you can't go any further than that, just give up please.
     
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    [QUOTE]Albers is one of those guys brought in with the hopes of something good happeneing, and it did.  Sign em, roll the dice. How often does a guy have an ERA under two, and then we never see him again as he posts ERAs over 5 for the years after signing a big contract?  Relievers are fickle, lucky, whatever.   Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes your the bug.  Sometimes you're the Louisville slugger, sometimes you're the ball.  Happens to the best and worst of GMs.
    Posted by rickerd2[/QUOTE]

    Very true, and a nice Dire Straits reference. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jenks.......what's the deal? : [QUOTE]Jenks :      A plump lemon.   Theo got fleeced. Posted by Diamondtalk[/QUOTE] AGAIN!
    Posted by the_yazzer[/QUOTE]

    The_Yazzer: Theo's an idiot, here's one lone example and that clearly proves it beyond any doubt!

    Someone else: Here's a complete, logical argument containing a large sampling of evidence that shows you're wrong. Care to retort in an educated fashion?

    The_Yazzer: [childish insult such as "you just love Theo, fool!"]

    Buzz Lightyear: You are a sad, sad little man, Yazzer, and you have my pity.

    Principal: Mr. Yazzer, what you have said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent responses were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this board is now dumber for having listened to you. I award you nothing, and may God have mercy on your soul.
     

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