Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:

    don't forget, he robbed

    Armando Galarraga

    of a perfect game


    What's that rule again, Jim?  oh yeah  - 3 strikes and you're out!!!!!!




    I think the title of thread implies that no one has forgotten.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:

    The rush of Torre and the talking heads to tell us this was the right call is infuriating.  It was not the right call.  Joyce said that Craig was "On the chalk".  That is utter BS. 

     



    And, nobody questioned Torre of Joyce about the fact that the runner was not within the baseline when he tripped over Middy.

    It's like a batter hitting a grounder to the SS, running towards the pitcher, tripping over him, and getting awarded 1b on obstruction.

    OK, it wasn't that extreme, but the fcats remain equal. The runner was out of the baseline when attempting to go from 3B to home. The fact that Middy was laying on the ground out of the baseline has nothing to do with obstruction.

    They are reading a rule in a vacumn and assuming the runner was in the baseline. He was not. His first step towards home was on the IF grass.

    If the ball had rolled 4 feet in front of Middy, and Middy tried to get up to field it, they could have called the runner out for interfering with the fielder!




    well the baseline is established by the runner


    but in this instance, the runner chose to take the less direct route

    what is to prevent runners from delibertly crashing into position players every chance they get?  that's why it has to be a judgement call and this was simply pure judgement.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to user_3952186's comment:

    In response to DirtyWaterLover's comment:

    Why?  He made the right call.  The runner tripped over a player lying across the base path.  It's obstruction.  Unless the player is fielding a ball, the base path belongs to the runner.

    Salty wears the horns for the loss.  Make a better throw and the player is out at 3rd.

     



    How should the call be made if the runner goes backwards on the baseline? Craig went to the SS side of the bag, going to a space he already occupied and in so doing initiated the contact. Not saying there wasn't interference but I would tend to believe the rule is based on the fielder initiating the contact/interference, not the runner.

    The call was made but I dont think it was the right call.




    Rule 2.00 defines obstruction as a fielder impeding any runner.  Nothing bout baselines.   Nothing abut fielder's right to get get up.  Basically, like most rules, a lot is left up to the umpire, and Joyce felt Middlebrooks impeding Craig. 

     

    And he might not have called it a such had Middlebrooks not lifted his lower legs, tripping Craig, but that is speculation.

     

    Most baseball defintions are more vague than people realize...

     

     



    How vague is the runner choosing to run out of the baseline to force the contact?

    Can he run to the pitchers mound, collide with the pitchers, fall down, and cry "Obstruction"?

    Craig clearly took a step towards 2B, and then turned to home. Middy was out of his way, had Craig not chosen the path of most resistance.




    that's right....it's not like middy was leaning toward HP - he was technically "behind" 3b (ie b/t 3b and 2b and not b/t 3b and HP)......

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    Seems like Middy lifted his legs to make sure he was OUT OF THE BASE-PATH, if anything (Even though he still was not, which deemed it unnesessary to begin with).

    This was a forehead-slapping bad call. The umpire crew says the "baserunner makes his own path".... ??? Really? 

    ...Since when? And to what extent? We all know you can be called out for leaving the basepath also. 

    Yup. Still the worst call I've ever witnessed. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from gibsonsg. Show gibsonsg's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    I still haven't heard anyone on TV or radio mention the fact that Craig was also pushing Middy back down to the ground! All they talk about is whether Middy lifted his legs intentially or not. Not only did Craig take the wrong path, which guaranteed contact, but he also obstructed Middy from getting back up. Should have been mutual obstruction, no call.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to Dabro's comment:

    This was a very poor call for a very simple reason.  The base runner had a clear path to home plate and chose not to take it.  As he got up from the slide at slird he turned inward and chose to run over Middlebrooks thus inducing the obstruction call.  He had a clear path to home plate and chose not to take it.  He turned inward 2 or 3 feet for no reason and got inside the base line.  Nobody picked this up.  The base runner did not have to take steps to avoid the fielder -- he had a very clear path to home and for whatever reason chose not to take it.  



    exactly what i've been saying the whole time, the best part is in the post game press conference when the umps spoke to the media, jim joyce said that middlebrooks was lying practically on the chalk. that just shows how big of a joke he is. middlebrooks was a good 2-3 feet away from the chalk and as you mentioned, craig had a clear path to home had he stayed on the baseline. for whatever reason he ran way off the baseball where middlebrooks was lying after diving for the ball and stumbled over him. no way was middy anywhere near the baseline. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    also, as someone mentioned, who's to say that middy wasnt lifting his legs up to avoid contact with craig and make sure they were out of the baseline and not get run over? which is very likely what happened. it did not look like middy was trying to trip craig in any way, its not like he stuck his leg out right in front of craig and tripped him, he lifted his legs straight up. amazing how it gets spun the other right away. joyce and demuth both should be fired. two blown calls in 3 games of the word series so far. not acceptable.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    The lifting of the legs sis not matter, since Craig did not trip over Middy's raised feet, he triped over his side.

    I'm waiting to hear Joyce justify the "he was on the chalk" comment. If he felt the need to justify his call by saying he was "on the chalk", then one can assume that being off the chalk would have changed his "judgement call".

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    The lifting of the legs sis not matter, since Craig did not trip over Middy's raised feet, he triped over his side.

    I'm waiting to hear Joyce justify the "he was on the chalk" comment. If he felt the need to justify his call by saying he was "on the chalk", then one can assume that being off the chalk would have changed his "judgement call".

     




    the real issue, I think, is having them explain why they thought Craig would had been safe had Middlebrooks not been there?  He still may have tripped if you look at it and he should had been sent back to 3rd.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to J-BAY's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to user_3952186's comment:

    In response to DirtyWaterLover's comment:

    Why?  He made the right call.  The runner tripped over a player lying across the base path.  It's obstruction.  Unless the player is fielding a ball, the base path belongs to the runner.

    Salty wears the horns for the loss.  Make a better throw and the player is out at 3rd.

     



    How should the call be made if the runner goes backwards on the baseline? Craig went to the SS side of the bag, going to a space he already occupied and in so doing initiated the contact. Not saying there wasn't interference but I would tend to believe the rule is based on the fielder initiating the contact/interference, not the runner.

    The call was made but I dont think it was the right call.




    Rule 2.00 defines obstruction as a fielder impeding any runner.  Nothing bout baselines.   Nothing abut fielder's right to get get up.  Basically, like most rules, a lot is left up to the umpire, and Joyce felt Middlebrooks impeding Craig. 

     

    And he might not have called it a such had Middlebrooks not lifted his lower legs, tripping Craig, but that is speculation.

     

    Most baseball defintions are more vague than people realize...

     

     



    Notin, after watching the replay several times, when Craig tripped, MWB legs were straight on the ground. The rule is vague. This play will force MLB address it during the offseason, for more clarification. 




    He put them up.  Craig is not even at him in this pic.

     

    Some have speculated Middlebrooks raised them to clear a path and not obstruct.  Othere that he did so knowing it was the only way to prevent Craig from scoring, and you never know when you will get away with it, or if Craig will stop running and argue an obstruction call (like Miguel Tejada in the 2003 ALDS), which would actually negate the obstruction call.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    You can argue the rule's wording and whether it's fair,  but by the rule Joyce and the crew got it right. As much as it pains me to admit it.

    The  base path is just that ... the base path. Not the chalk. Craig was never  out of the base path.  My objection to the rule is that it doesn't take into account intent. Clearly Middlebrooks wasn't trying to interfere ... he was obviously trying to quickly get to is feet  and track down the ball.  But the rule doesn't allow for that.

    In short ...  crappily-worded rule, but the umps got it correct.

    I just wish Jim Joyce had  been working Game 3 of the 1975 World Series.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    Not that it will change anything but does it matter that Craig NEVER TOUCHED HOME PLATE??

    Rule 7.04(d), which at least discusses the fact that a runner who fails to touch the base to which he is entitled, “forfeits his exemption from liability to be put out, and he may be put out by tagging the base or by tagging the runner before he returns to the missed base”).

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:

    Not that it will change anything but does it matter that Craig NEVER TOUCHED HOME PLATE??

    Rule 7.04(d), which at least discusses the fact that a runner who fails to touch the base to which he is entitled, “forfeits his exemption from liability to be put out, and he may be put out by tagging the base or by tagging the runner before he returns to the missed base”).




    Interesting point.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History


    This thread kind of reminds me of the Salem witch trials.  You have all decided Joyce is a witch, but nobody from the outside (non-RSN), rational world agrees with you.  He made the right call, and claiming he made the wrong call makes you as irrational as our forebearers from Salem. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:


    This thread kind of reminds me of the Salem witch trials.  You have all decided Joyce is a witch, but nobody from the outside (non-RSN), rational world agrees with you.  He made the right call, and claiming he made the wrong call makes you as irrational as our forebearers from Salem. 




    He made a justifiable call.  The right call would have been no call. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:


    This thread kind of reminds me of the Salem witch trials.  You have all decided Joyce is a witch, but nobody from the outside (non-RSN), rational world agrees with you.  He made the right call, and claiming he made the wrong call makes you as irrational as our forebearers from Salem. 



    Was Middlebrooks in the baseline between 3B and home? 

     

    If not, how can he obstruct?

     

    Can a runner run to the pitcher's mound, trip over the pitcher and claim obstruction?

     

    Why would Joyce back up his claim with a lie? ("He was on the chalk.")

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from OCONNOR6. Show OCONNOR6's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History


    I know this is going to make a lot of people angry, but I think the obstruction was intentional.  I have watched the replay over and over.  Middlebrooks clearly raises his legs a second time--why?
    Many have argued he was trying to get up.  Two points:  1)  Lie down on the floor with your legs kicked up behind you (his orginal fallen position).  Now what do you do to get up?  Try it.  You put your toes to the ground before shifting weight to your knee/knees.  You don't kick your legs back up again.  2)  If Middlebrooks was trying to get up, why did he stay on the ground after Craig got away?  He stayed on the ground for Craig's entire run home.
    I just want us to try to take the emotion away for a second and look at the replay honestly.  If I were Middlebrooks, I may have done the same thing.  At any rate, he should have just lied flat to try to avoid an interference/obstruction call. 
    If you watch the replay devoid of emotion, you may come to the realization that it was intentional.
    Not that it matters

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:


    This thread kind of reminds me of the Salem witch trials.  You have all decided Joyce is a witch, but nobody from the outside (non-RSN), rational world agrees with you.  He made the right call, and claiming he made the wrong call makes you as irrational as our forebearers from Salem. 



    No. He made the wrong call. 

    In other news: If the series does go back to Boston, I hope they get to play it. Considering the old Massachusetts ordinance declaring goatees illegal unless a prior special license fee has been paidbefore wearing one in public. Sox might have to forfeit the series for lack of players. But hey, the law is the law if they interpret it that way.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to OCONNOR6's comment:


    I know this is going to make a lot of people angry, but I think the obstruction was intentional.  I have watched the replay over and over.  Middlebrooks clearly raises his legs a second time--why?

    His raised feet did not touch Craig, so what difference does it make. Besides, inetntion is not part of the rule.


    Many have argued he was trying to get up.  Two points:  1)  Lie down on the floor with your legs kicked up behind you (his orginal fallen position).  Now what do you do to get up?  Try it.  You put your toes to the ground before shifting weight to your knee/knees.  You don't kick your legs back up again.  2)  If Middlebrooks was trying to get up, why did he stay on the ground after Craig got away?  He stayed on the ground for Craig's entire run home.
    I just want us to try to take the emotion away for a second and look at the replay honestly.  If I were Middlebrooks, I may have done the same thing.  At any rate, he should have just lied flat to try to avoid an interference/obstruction call. 
    If you watch the replay devoid of emotion, you may come to the realization that it was intentional.
    Not that it matters.

    It doesn't- in more ways that you think.




     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to DirtyWaterLover's comment:

    Why?  He made the right call.  The runner tripped over a player lying across the base path.  It's obstruction.  Unless the player is fielding a ball, the base path belongs to the runner.

    Salty wears the horns for the loss.  Make a better throw and the player is out at 3rd.

     



    Look again, the runner wasn't in the base path when he tripped over middy.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

    You can argue the rule's wording and whether it's fair,  but by the rule Joyce and the crew got it right. As much as it pains me to admit it.

    The  base path is just that ... the base path. Not the chalk. Craig was never  out of the base path.  My objection to the rule is that it doesn't take into account intent. Clearly Middlebrooks wasn't trying to interfere ... he was obviously trying to quickly get to is feet  and track down the ball.  But the rule doesn't allow for that.

    In short ...  crappily-worded rule, but the umps got it correct.

    I just wish Jim Joyce had  been working Game 3 of the 1975 World Series.

     



    Craig was out of the basepath when he tripped over middy.  He had to take a few steps to his right after the trip to get back in the basepath.  Bad call

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to OCONNOR6's comment:


    I know this is going to make a lot of people angry, but I think the obstruction was intentional.  I have watched the replay over and over.  Middlebrooks clearly raises his legs a second time--why?
    Many have argued he was trying to get up.  Two points:  1)  Lie down on the floor with your legs kicked up behind you (his orginal fallen position).  Now what do you do to get up?  Try it.  You put your toes to the ground before shifting weight to your knee/knees.  You don't kick your legs back up again.  2)  If Middlebrooks was trying to get up, why did he stay on the ground after Craig got away?  He stayed on the ground for Craig's entire run home.
    I just want us to try to take the emotion away for a second and look at the replay honestly.  If I were Middlebrooks, I may have done the same thing.  At any rate, he should have just lied flat to try to avoid an interference/obstruction call. 
    If you watch the replay devoid of emotion, you may come to the realization that it was intentional.
    Not that it matters



    You really don't know what you are talking about.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    He had no choice, it's a rule.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

    just my $.02.. had they deaded the play there's no way to know if they wouldn't have gotten the winner in anyway...the Sox could still have lost(not a sure result either)...even in the face of the rule the best thing may have been to put him on 3B and resume the game...@Kim..if the roles were reversed and the Sox were the beneficiary would you still have accused the ump of "clearly lying"??...during the 2012 season, on this board i once blasted Mark Teixiera for saying the same thing...IMO it's really bad form to accuse an ump of motive.....don't get me wrong Kim, as a Sox fan(you) i totally get your(and the other's anger) but you shouldn't say stuff like that....no judgement of you intended...



    Yes, Jete. I would. I'm all about getting the calls right, and having a fair game for both teams. i absolutely 100% do not like bad umpire calls. For anyone.

    And here's what was in the post I was responding to:

    In the postgame interview, Joyce said, "The runner was on the chalk when he got up and attempted to run home."

    That is 100% wrong and not even close to be correct.

    That's clearly lying. He didn't say he was in the basepath, he actually made it MORE SPECIFIC by saying he was on the chalk. That NEVER happened. He couldn't have seen that. He's lying. I'm just amazed that he doesn't have to be confronted with the pic evidence after making such a statement. The statement just stood as it was, and still continues to stand without him having to correct it.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Jim Joyce-- now has two of the worst calls in Major League History

    In response to emp9's comment:

    Seems like Middy lifted his legs to make sure he was OUT OF THE BASE-PATH, if anything (Even though he still was not, which deemed it unnesessary to begin with).

    This was a forehead-slapping bad call. The umpire crew says the "baserunner makes his own path".... ??? Really? 

    ...Since when? And to what extent? We all know you can be called out for leaving the basepath also. 

    Yup. Still the worst call I've ever witnessed. 



    Exactly.

     
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