Jon Lester must go

  1. This post has been removed.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from irish-sox-fan. Show irish-sox-fan's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    Guess you didn't get the memo, Lester is an ACE. Just like Josh Beckett is still an ace. Cracks me up when I hear Lester called an ace. Curt Schilling was an ace, Randy Johnson was an ace, Roy Halliday was, Cliff Lee is. You know exactly what you get/got with them. Lester I don't think so.

    "When I die Dublin will be written in my heart." - James Joyce

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from irish-sox-fan. Show irish-sox-fan's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    As I type that there goes Jon. I forgot to add that he's one of the most dislikeable looking pr1ks in baseball, he certainly has the d***khead attitude of an ace. Just doesnt throw a baseball like one.

    "When I die Dublin will be written in my heart." - James Joyce

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    In response to teddybaseball009's comment:

     

    If we give up Lester and Middlebrooks  for Cliff Lee does the deal get done? If not, what do we have to add or deduct?

    Lester can not be counted on at all. He surely is not a top of rotation pitcher and probably never has been and certainly never will be. As brittle as Buck is we need a couple of 30 starts 220 inning studs. Just because we are in first at this point is meaningless. If not Lee, who?

     



    I have been saying this since before the season started, some fans just don't want to agree or hear it because the team has been winning.  Our offense looks pretty good but the only real success this team has will depend primarily on our SP which isn't half as good as some think. 

     

    Two years from now maybe if the kids begin to mature and guys like Lackey and Demp are gone but until then our team is more than vulnerable and the offense can't continue to bail them out.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    I was hoping JF would leave him out there for at least 7 or 8 innings to make him change his routine. The best thing and the worst thing to happen to  Lester was for him to win  his first 6 outings.

    He has totally abandoned speeding things up. He is awful to watch.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    Hard to blame Lester for stinking. Its not like he is TRYING to stink. He just does.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     
  7. This post has been removed.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Hard to blame Lester for stinking. Its not like he is TRYING to stink. He just does.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE



    Its a weakness our team has had for years but we just keep signing FA's that can't help hoping a youngster comes along soon and our best pitchers and offense picks up the slack.

    Its still a major weakness for our FO in terms of evaluating SP talent.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from gr82bme. Show gr82bme's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    I don't think we could get rid of Lester.  Consider - he's stunk for about 15 baseball months, he's trending downward big time, he refuses to throw strikes, his body language is awful, and it looks as though he lacks mental toughness.  He's looking like he's past his peak of effectiveness.  So even if you package him with Middlebrooks, what would you get?  Certainly not Cliff Lee.  We'd need to trade for an Ace sans moving Lester - then move Lester to the 4th or 5th spot, hope to get some decent innings out of him, lower our expectations to better align them to his talent and go from there.  He's been in the league long enough to realize that although he use to have "potential" and was effective for about a 6-year period, he's no longer, nor will he ever be, a top-of-the-rotation guy.  Solid 4 or 5 maybe, even a decent 3, but unless he gets mentally right, nothing more.  Perhaps we'd be better off letting him go for whatever we can get, save some payroll money, and hopefully get a much less expensive guy to give us the same thing.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    Lester is just over- rated and has that pis##ey attitude when it does not go his way like leaving fat fastballs over the plate.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    I have been saying that Lester is a serviceable #3-4 SP all season. Now that he is showing his true stripes more people are seeing him for what he is too. The good news is that teams also need #4 SP and he will be just fine there or at #5 next year. And we have good prospects coming up (not enough of them IMO), some of whom could become a #1 or #2 SP. The expectations for Lester have been way too high this year and with the expectations for his performance so go the expectations for the team.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    I have been saying that Lester is a serviceable #3-4 SP all season. Now that he is showing his true stripes more people are seeing him for what he is too. The good news is that teams also need #4 SP and he will be just fine there or at #5 next year. And we have good prospects coming up (not enough of them IMO), some of whom could become a #1 or #2 SP. The expectations for Lester have been way too high this year and with the expectations for his performance so go the expectations for the team.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE



    What good prospects do we have in the pitching department? Webster is struggling again in the minors. I think this team needs pitching.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    In response to teddybaseball009's comment:

    If we give up Lester and Middlebrooks  for Cliff Lee does the deal get done? If not, what do we have to add or deduct?

    Lester can not be counted on at all. He surely is not a top of rotation pitcher and probably never has been and certainly never will be. As brittle as Buck is we need a couple of 30 starts 220 inning studs. Just because we are in first at this point is meaningless. If not Lee, who?



    We don't need to give up us Lester in a Cliff Lee deal.  Middy I agree with the way Iggy looks as a 3B.  Offer Middy, one of our young catchers and SP's like Doubront and pick up some of Lee's salary.  Some people think the Phils have a future catcher but I certainly don't see who.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    In response to AL34's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I have been saying that Lester is a serviceable #3-4 SP all season. Now that he is showing his true stripes more people are seeing him for what he is too. The good news is that teams also need #4 SP and he will be just fine there or at #5 next year. And we have good prospects coming up (not enough of them IMO), some of whom could become a #1 or #2 SP. The expectations for Lester have been way too high this year and with the expectations for his performance so go the expectations for the team.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     



    What good prospects do we have in the pitching department? Webster is struggling again in the minors. I think this team needs pitching.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree; we need MORE pitching. They should have traded Ellsbury and Salty before the season started for more prospects. I think Webster will be OK; there is also RDLR, Ranaudo, and Owens. Britton is good too. I don't keep up with all those guys as much as some others do, but I know you cannot have too much pitching. Simply put, the FO did not do enough this offseason in the pitching department to make us into a playoff team IMO.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    The ever popular vent thread when we all get to blame Lester for our troubles.

    First and foremost, it is crazy to declare "Lester must go" after a terrible outing or even after a series of mediocre outings.  Unless, of course, something is physically wrong.  But Lester is actually throwing harder than he was last year and the year before.  He throws that sinker fastball 93 mph, sometimes 94, and can even throw it 95mph.  His arm is fine. 

    His problem as I see it is he over-relies on the fastball.  When he starts a game, he will avoid any breaking balls as long as possible, which these days means until he's given up some runs.  He's got a curve and a changeup, but he doesn't trust either one.  Consequently, especially on nights like tonight when his control is a little off, hitters can sit on that fast ball because he will not throw a breaking ball when he is in trouble because he doesn't trust either one--the curve or the changeup.  Plus, amazingly, you can almost predict when he will throw a breaking ball--on an 0-2 count because he is wasting a pitch.  That happened tonight, and he actually hit the outside corner with a curve against a righty, which should have worked.  But the batter--Zobrist I think--was guessing curve for the reasons stated and hit it hard for a single. 

    At this point there is also very obviously a confidence issue.  Lester is stuck on that fastball, opposing hitters know it, and he can't find a way out except to throw more fastballs.  My fix would be to make him throw more breaking balls, especially early in a game, and to make him work on his changeup and curve (and slider if he has one) in his bullpen sessions. 

    FWIW, in Beckett's first year, 2006, in the AL he finished with an ERA of 5 even though he was hitting 97 mph on his heater, which he loved.  Problem was opposing hitters loved it almost as much as he did. 

    I think Lester can still be effective, but he must relearn mastery of his pitches. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from irish-sox-fan. Show irish-sox-fan's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    In response to gr82bme's comment:

     

    I don't think we could get rid of Lester.  Consider - he's stunk for about 15 baseball months, he's trending downward big time, he refuses to throw strikes, his body language is awful, and it looks as though he lacks mental toughness.  He's looking like he's past his peak of effectiveness.  So even if you package him with Middlebrooks, what would you get?  Certainly not Cliff Lee.  We'd need to trade for an Ace sans moving Lester - then move Lester to the 4th or 5th spot, hope to get some decent innings out of him, lower our expectations to better align them to his talent and go from there.  He's been in the league long enough to realize that although he use to have "potential" and was effective for about a 6-year period, he's no longer, nor will he ever be, a top-of-the-rotation guy.  Solid 4 or 5 maybe, even a decent 3, but unless he gets mentally right, nothing more.  Perhaps we'd be better off letting him go for whatever we can get, save some payroll money, and hopefully get a much less expensive guy to give us the same thing.

     



    Good post and I couldn't more. By the way in response to original poster; it's not like Middlebrooks is a young Albert Pujols! I mean he looks ok. Hardly the next Cabrera based on 1 year of ok hitting. 

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to AL34's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

    I have been saying that Lester is a serviceable #3-4 SP all season. Now that he is showing his true stripes more people are seeing him for what he is too. The good news is that teams also need #4 SP and he will be just fine there or at #5 next year. And we have good prospects coming up (not enough of them IMO), some of whom could become a #1 or #2 SP. The expectations for Lester have been way too high this year and with the expectations for his performance so go the expectations for the team.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

     



    What good prospects do we have in the pitching department? Webster is struggling again in the minors. I think this team needs pitching.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree; we need MORE pitching. They should have traded Ellsbury and Salty before the season started for more prospects. I think Webster will be OK; there is also RDLR, Ranaudo, and Owens. Britton is good too. I don't keep up with all those guys as much as some others do, but I know you cannot have too much pitching. Simply put, the FO did not do enough this offseason in the pitching department to make us into a playoff team IMO.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    A whole lot of 20-20 hindsight in your post.  Show me where before this season you predicted the Sox would have the best hitting--highest OPS and most runs scored--at almost the midseason point. 

    And, pardon me for saying so, but the Sox right now have the best record in the AL and the second best record in MLB.  But you are describing a team that is desperate to win a game, any game. 

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    In response to teddybaseball009's comment:

    If we give up Lester and Middlebrooks  for Cliff Lee does the deal get done? If not, what do we have to add or deduct?

    Lester can not be counted on at all. He surely is not a top of rotation pitcher and probably never has been and certainly never will be. As brittle as Buck is we need a couple of 30 starts 220 inning studs. Just because we are in first at this point is meaningless. If not Lee, who?



    That kind of has a nice intuitive appeal to it.  I was never a WMB fan, but I could see his appeal to other teams.  And Lester has shown enough promise even this season, earlier, to encourage other teams to think of him as an asset, or as someone that might succeed in the NL.

    Plus, there is a reasonable chance that Bogaerts winds up at 3rd, if not Cecchini, and for the rest of the year, Drew and Iggy have looked pretty good together.  If I were Philly, I'd ask for a bit more, since there are question marks for both guys, but I'd have to think that would be pretty close to fair value.  Two guys that could be pretty solid for them, plus freeing up a ton of cash.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to AL34's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    I have been saying that Lester is a serviceable #3-4 SP all season. Now that he is showing his true stripes more people are seeing him for what he is too. The good news is that teams also need #4 SP and he will be just fine there or at #5 next year. And we have good prospects coming up (not enough of them IMO), some of whom could become a #1 or #2 SP. The expectations for Lester have been way too high this year and with the expectations for his performance so go the expectations for the team.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

     

     



    What good prospects do we have in the pitching department? Webster is struggling again in the minors. I think this team needs pitching.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree; we need MORE pitching. They should have traded Ellsbury and Salty before the season started for more prospects. I think Webster will be OK; there is also RDLR, Ranaudo, and Owens. Britton is good too. I don't keep up with all those guys as much as some others do, but I know you cannot have too much pitching. Simply put, the FO did not do enough this offseason in the pitching department to make us into a playoff team IMO.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    A whole lot of 20-20 hindsight in your post.  Show me where before this season you predicted the Sox would have the best hitting--highest OPS and most runs scored--at almost the midseason point. 

     

    And, pardon me for saying so, but the Sox right now have the best record in the AL and the second best record in MLB.  But you are describing a team that is desperate to win a game, any game. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I said many times that we will score runs and would probably finish in the top four teams in runs scored. I am not going to go back and dig up those posts. I could not care less if you don't believe me. What I said is true. I never claimed that they would be first in OPS. Thats just wonderful, isn't it. Won't help much if we have an injury prone #1 SP and three #4s. I always thought our pitching was our Achilles heel. I said that the effectiveness of Lester and the health of Buchholtz were the main concerns I had. The ineffectiveness of the pen is a surprise to me; I thought they would be better.
    And yes, we are in first place. With all due respect I am sticking to my prediction: about 81 wins.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    Will Middlebrooks' trade value has plummeted now that his weaknesses apparently have been exposed.

    I suspect the Phillies could land more than one prospect/promising young player in exchange for Cliff Lee.

     
  21. This post has been removed.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Jon Lester must go

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    You would miss Middlebrooks once he is gone and hits 5 homers in a week with Philly. When we talk short-term then Middlebrooks should play everyday and depending on future options he may or may not be here 3 years from now.




    I am not ready to give up just yet on WMB. Lester, however, is never again going to be a sub 4 ERA pitcher. Just not that good any more. As he sinks, so does the team.

     
  23. This post has been removed.

     
  24. This post has been removed.

     
  25. This post has been removed.

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share