Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    Andrew - You do realize that Lester was carrying an ERA of about 6 through the end of May 2009, right?  In his ninth start of 2009 he picked up his 3rd win, improving his record to 3-4 and lowering his ERA from 6.5 to 5.9.  Sure, he struck out more batters than he has so far this year, but he was giving up a lot of hits.  He didn't hit his stride until June in 2009.  
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    Yes, isn't it obvious that Lester got off to bad start in 2009? Isn't that well documented?  And 2009 was the year that Wakefield saved the staff by having a great start to the season.  But again, Lester is not consisent enough. 

    And a Hall of Famer is quite laughable.  What #'s are you projecting for his career exactly?  200 wins - ok, certainly not in the mid 2's.......3,000 K's?  Perhaps that would be a reach.....ERA is what now?  3 1/2?  Certainly that will go up.  But even if it only goes up a little what will be end up at?  3.75?

    So is 210 W, 2800 K's, and an ERA of 3.80 really a Hall of Famer?  Jack Morris has over 250 W's w/ similar stats and he ain't getting in.  And this just in - The Cat is just a tad bit more of a warrior than Lester is...
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    I'm surprised the Lester thread is still moving but the Clay thread barely hits a mark on the radar. One is still pitching like a quality starter, the other has turned into a mediocre version of himself.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    I'm surprised the Lester thread is still moving but the Clay thread barely hits a mark on the radar. One is still pitching like a quality starter, the other has turned into a mediocre version of himself.
    Posted by dannycater


    That's because there is still hope for Lester.

    Buck only has a job by default.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    Dice-K would have taken his spot, that's the irony.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    Dice-K would have taken his spot, that's the irony.
    Posted by dannycater


    Yeah or Lackey but really, if we didn't have all the dead money Theo wasted we could easily have Oswalt or someone else.  Maybe Gio? 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    Oswalt is still an option? I thought he worked out for the team a week ago?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    Idiots, idiots, idiots, idiots, idiots...

    I'm so sick and tired of this sorry old (and ignorant) song. I'm sorry Jon Lester isn't perfect, and I'm REALLY sorry you put so much weight on performances at the 1/4 mark of the season.

    Lester gave up 4 ERs total in 15 innings on the road against Detroit (when they were super hot) and Toronto. That's as good as it gets.
    Then he had a two start hiccup. It happens.
    In the 5 starts since, he has a 2.45 ERA.

    WHAT A FREAKING BUM! CUT HIM! TRADE HIM.

    Jon Lester...career April ERA: 4.22
    Career ERA overall (including April and coming less than a year off cancer): 3.56

    Career April K/BB: 1.91
    Career K/BB: 2.44

    Career April WHIP: 1.387
    Career WHIP: 1.290

    See a pattern here? Lester ALWAYS starts slowly. It looks like this year he might have limited that slow start to two starts...that's excellent. Heck, it might put him in the Cy Young race, if he does what he normally does and pitches great the rest of the season.

    I don't know if you Lester haters are legitimately stupid, or just spoiled, but you're something, and I don't get it. By the time Lester retires with a "Hall Of Very Good" or better career, you'll see everyone around you heap oodles of praise on the man, and say how much they enjoyed his career, and you'll wonder what you missed.


    P.S. For those of you who think Lester's "stuff" is off...you need to learn to watch pitching more closely. Lester has good stuff, but he's never been great in that area, and that wasn't why he emerged for two years as a strikeout pitcher. Lester has always been about being able to nicely locate that good stuff, especially to both sides of the plate to RH batters (something LH pitchers usually have trouble with). He took a step up when he added a high command cutter to his arsenal. However, since the start of last year, his cutter at times gets "loopy" instead of cutting, and his command isn't quite what it was in the two years prior...and that's why his K's are down. The good news is, if at any time and/or in any given start his mechanics line up, he's as good as it gets, and luckily, when that doesn't happen, he's still professional enough to put together good outings.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    Idiots, idiots, idiots, idiots, idiots... I'm so sick and tired of this sorry old (and ignorant) song. I'm sorry Jon Lester isn't perfect, and I'm REALLY sorry you put so much weight on performances at the 1/4 mark of the season. Lester gave up 4 ERs total in 15 innings on the road against Detroit (when they were super hot) and Toronto. That's as good as it gets. Then he had a two start hiccup. It happens. In the 5 starts since, he has a 2.45 ERA . WHAT A FREAKING BUM! CUT HIM! TRADE HIM. Jon Lester...career April ERA: 4.22 Career ERA overall (including April and coming less than a year off cancer): 3.56 Career April K/BB: 1.91 Career K/BB: 2.44 Career April WHIP: 1.387 Career WHIP: 1.290 See a pattern here? Lester ALWAYS starts slowly. It looks like this year he might have limited that slow start to two starts...that's excellent. Heck, it might put him in the Cy Young race, if he does what he normally does and pitches great the rest of the season. I don't know if you Lester haters are legitimately stupid, or just spoiled, but you're something, and I don't get it. By the time Lester retires with a "Hall Of Very Good" or better career, you'll see everyone around you heap oodles of praise on the man, and say how much they enjoyed his career, and you'll wonder what you missed. P.S. For those of you who think Lester's "stuff" is off...you need to learn to watch pitching more closely. Lester has good stuff, but he's never been great in that area, and that wasn't why he emerged for two years as a strikeout pitcher. Lester has always been about being able to nicely locate that good stuff, especially to both sides of the plate to RH batters (something LH pitchers usually have trouble with). He took a step up when he added a high command cutter to his arsenal. However, since the start of last year, his cutter at times gets "loopy" instead of cutting, and his command isn't quite what it was in the two years prior...and that's why his K's are down. The good news is, if at any time and/or in any given start his mechanics line up, he's as good as it gets, and luckily, when that doesn't happen, he's still professional enough to put together good outings.
    Posted by redsoxu571


    That's a good way to be ignored......
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    Oswalt is still an option? I thought he worked out for the team a week ago?
    Posted by dannycater


    I believe so.  I think The Rangers are looking at him now.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up : That's a good way to be ignored......
    Posted by andrewmitch


    As opposed to constantly mocking a very good pitcher for not living up to some ridiculous standards, and mocking those who point out how wrong you are by labelling them "blind supporters".

    The facts haven't done the job with the blind Lester haters, so I don't know what will.

    Sorry if using a accurate description for the haters lowers the level of discourse here, but the Lester hating has long gone too far...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    You are the one doing the "labeling"

    I said that Lester is simply "not stepping up" and he isn't
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TampaTom. Show TampaTom's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    Lester is a GREAT number two starter who needs a Curt Schilling and/ or Pedro Martinez above him in the rotation......PERIOD. I realized that when he was blown out going for his 20th win a few years back,,,,,he didnt want it bad enough, just like he keeps nibbling at the strike zone when he goes up 0-2 on a batter. Thats how he started out his career, nibbling at the strike zone. when he finally got agressive, he took off.....hence no hitter, and consistant 15-16 win seasons. Just cant take it to the next level.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    You are the one doing the "labeling" I said that Lester is simply "not stepping up" and he isn't
    Posted by andrewmitch


    I think I pretty clearly refuted that by showing what he's done since his two poor starts. Immediately following two terrible games with 3 wins in 5 starts with a 2.45 ERA strikes me as the very definition of "stepping up"...especially when you consider that he "stepped up" in two very tough matchups to start the year when the team needed a good start.

    That's why this whole bit of Lester bashing/complaining has gotten so old...it seems no matter how reasoned any response is to any unfair criticism laid on Lester, the response goes ignored...some people have just decided that Lester is "unclutch", "doesn't step up", and "isn't good enough", none of which, frankly, follows from any well-rounded analysis.

    I have no vested interest in defending Lester...I just want people to see him for what he is...which, as I've noted many times is as follows: a second-tier ace who is kept out of the cream of the crop due to his early season struggles, but who is also a top line starter once he gets going every season. He's not perfect, but given the legitimate inconsistency of our other SPs, why take aim so much and so often at his minor blemishes?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    Tampa, Lester in a lot of ways is like a better version of Dice-K. Both suffer from that nibbling sense of being perfect with their pitches. They want to paint the corner so bad that instead 2-pitch at bats become epic 12 or 13 pitch at bats as they try not to give in and at the same time not put a cookie down the middle. When Dice-K got aggressive, he was dominating at times. When Lester gets aggressive, he is also dominating. Beckett understands that part of the game I think better than most. That's why when Beckett gets bombed, it's often in a huge way. He goes after hitters 0-2, 1-2 and he isn't afraid to work ahead. With that said, both Lester and a healthy Dice-K can be two of the very best when they really have command and confidence.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    Lester is a GREAT number two starter who needs a Curt Schilling and/ or Pedro Martinez above him in the rotation......PERIOD. I realized that when he was blown out going for his 20th win a few years back,,,,,he didnt want it bad enough, just like he keeps nibbling at the strike zone when he goes up 0-2 on a batter. Thats how he started out his career, nibbling at the strike zone. when he finally got agressive, he took off.....hence no hitter, and consistant 15-16 win seasons. Just cant take it to the next level.
    Posted by TampaTom


    It's not nibbling, it's the difference between having your command or not. When Lester has his full command, he can put the ball wherever he wants, and dominates. When he does not, his job is to get as many outs as possible while allowing as few runs as possible...and as with all aces, he does a fine job of doing what he can when he isn't fully "on".

    Would you prefer AJ Burnett, who gives up 5+ run innings when he doesn't have his proper command but tries to aggressively pitch through it anyway?

    As for Pedro, it's funny that you bring him up...Pedro might have been the best SP ever, at his peak. Why? Because 1) he had some of the best stuff in the league 2) he had some of the best command in the league 3) he rarely had nights without his stuff and command, so he could dominate night in and night out.

    The joke about the Lester criticism is it seems he either has to be Pedro (again, a pitcher so good we will never see another like him in a Red Sox uniform in our lifetime) or else he's an underperforming bum who could never merit the label of "ace". I suppose the Red Sox can never have an ace again, given how high the bar has been set...
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    Lester has been remarkably consistent during his career putting up excellent numbers for all four years he has been a full time starter.  Maybe he is an "ace" and maybe his isn't ... that's subjective and I'm not going to touch it.  Comparing him to DiceK is silly.  Then again, this entire thread is silly.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    You know, I bet if you went back and looked at this thread and what I wrote compared to responses, you'd see the only hatred here are some people attacking me because I simply do not feel that Lester has stepped up thus far this year (and I provided the stats). 

    And the only thing that is sillier than calling Lester an Ace is calling him an HOF'er....
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    Yes, isn't it obvious that Lester got off to bad start in 2009? Isn't that well documented?  And 2009 was the year that Wakefield saved the staff by having a great start to the season.  But again, Lester is not consisent enough.  And a Hall of Famer is quite laughable.  What #'s are you projecting for his career exactly?  200 wins - ok, certainly not in the mid 2's.......3,000 K's?  Perhaps that would be a reach.....ERA is what now?  3 1/2?  Certainly that will go up.  But even if it only goes up a little what will be end up at?  3.75? So is 210 W, 2800 K's, and an ERA of 3.80 really a Hall of Famer?  Jack Morris has over 250 W's w/ similar stats and he ain't getting in.  And this just in - The Cat is just a tad bit more of a warrior than Lester is...
    Posted by andrewmitch

    Please - you're going to compare pitching in Detroit in the 80's to Boston in 2012?  The best adjusted ERA of Morris's career was 133.  Lester has beaten that 3 times, and he's only 28 years old.  Morris's career adjusted ERA is barely better than average - tied with Tim Wakefield.  

    Look at Roy Halladay's stats entering his age 28 season - 67-39 with a 3.89 ERA and 702 Ks.  Or Verlanders - 83 - 52 with a 3.81 ERA.  

    If these guys switched uniforms with Lester, you'd have the same exact complaint, and would be using Lester as the gold standard.



     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    Morris won over 250 games

    Any comparison of Lester to Halladay and Verlander and well, I am going to completely zone out........
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    If ERA is your favorite stat, Lester's has been between 3.21 and 3.47 for four straight years.  It would only take a shutout in his next start to get in that range.   Who is an ace, if not Lester?  Verlander has never had a stretch like that for four years straight. Felix Hernandez matched Lester's ERA last year, but that's calling Safeco your home park, as opposed to Fenway.  Even Roy Halladay could never make that claim until he switched leagues.
    Posted by slomag

    To be an ace is to step up when team needs you most. End of season big games that really matter, stop 2 or 3 game losing streaks. Just seems Jon has come up short in those 2 areas last 2 years. Seems when he's needed most he doesn't always come up big. 2 years ago everyone predicting that breakout CY season, lets face it never came, not saying he's not a very good pitcher but definately hasn't taken that next step to be mentioned w/ other elite starters. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up : To be an ace is to step up when team needs you most. End of season big games that really matter, stop 2 or 3 game losing streaks. Just seems Jon has come up short in those 2 areas last 2 years. Seems when he's needed most he doesn't always come up big. 2 years ago everyone predicting that breakout CY season, lets face it never came, not saying he's not a very good pitcher but definately hasn't taken that next step to be mentioned w/ other elite starters. 
    Posted by garyhow


    B I N G O
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    Getting outpitched in playoff games is another factor.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    In Response to Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up:
    Getting outpitched in playoff games is another factor.
    Posted by dannycater


    careful, they'll come out w/ his 2.57 or whatever it is ERA in the PS
    whilst ingoring that his first few games in PS were very good but 2 out of his most recent 3 were very bad (including the game where he kept giving a very hot Longo and Upton pitches directly out of the plate that ended up over the Monstah - if you think I scream on these boards be thankful you weren't my neighbor that night).....
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Jon Lester - simply not stepping up

    I think what we all want out of Lester is what andrewmitch is wanting as well. We would love for Jon to be the guy who can outpitch the other big starter, or get to the 8th inning when his opponent can't. But I do feel that he's not really a big-game pitcher. When he was needed in the biggest postseason game v. Tampa, he didn't come through. When he was needed last September, he didn't come through. He's had some very huge starts the past few years where he was not the best SP in the game, and that's disappointing, and it's because he seemed to be on the cusp of being a top 5 in all of baseball SP. He's a terrific SP, and a valuable player on this roster. But if you said to me he's throwing against Verlander, or throwing against Halladay, or throwing against Hernandez, or against Weaver, I'm putting money that those other guys will have a better outing and probably have the lead by the time Jon's start concluded. And I do really love watching Lester pitch when he's the dominant Jon that we've seen a few years ago.
     
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