Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    Let's take a look at our undervalued lefty, and the legendary "left hand of God", Sandy Koufax.

    As great as Koufax was, he was not an instant success, or a counted upon member of the staff, until his fourth year in the bigs, and then posted a combined losing record as a starter for the next three seasons. (27-30, with an ERA over 4.00). Meanwhile Lester became a full time starter in his 3rd season, and then produced a 50-23 record in his first three seasons. Advantage Lester.

    Koufax then put a a very good season, 18-13 3.52, improved again to14-7 2.54, and then became unhittable in the next 4 seasons, going 97-27, with an ERA of about 2.00. It is those four seasons that cemented his legaccy.

    Now, let's put Koufax into the modern era, and remove 25% of his starts, due to a five man rotation, he loses 38 wins from his total, down to 127 career wins against 68 losses. Put him into the AL, with it's DH, and add half a run to his ERA, 3.26. Now, lower the mound and add another 0.50 to his ERA to bring it to 3.78. Now let's look at Mr. Lester, and see his 100-56 record and his 3.76 ERA.

    Not too shabby, Jon! I've always held the position that Koufax benefitted from sympathy for his injury/ailment, in other words, had his career played out backwards, that is to say, had he been brilliant first, and then fallen into mediocrity, he would be just a foot note of interest, think fernando Valenzuela. Instead, he is the gold standard for Left-handers.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax


    Oh, yeah, add in ballpark differential, Lester at Fenway, and Sandy in LA.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    blasphemy!

     

    didnt they switch to 162 sometime in the early 60's?  (halfway into his career).

    your math is wrong.

    based on 162 game schedule:

    5 man rotation = 32 starts

    4 man rotation = 40 starts.

    20%

    also

    how many 6ip wins did koafax have where the BP / closer saved him after he had thrown 100 pitches?  Lester?

    also

    God:

    7th inning 230.2 IP  1.87 era

    8th inning 202    3.30

    9th inning  175   3.14

    Lester:

    7th inning 99.1 IP  3.08 era

    8th inning 30.2    4.70

    9th inning  7.1  2.45

     

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

     

    sorry youk you shoulda stayed with  pedro vs Koufax

    I'm not here 2 knock lester, I wish we had him

    but you need 2 show sandy some more respect

     

    As great as Koufax was, he was not an instant success, or a counted upon member of the staff, until his fourth year in the bigs, and then posted a combined losing record as a starter for the next three seasons. (27-30, with an ERA over 4.00). Meanwhile Lester became a full time starter in his 3rd season, and then produced a 50-23 record in his first three seasons. Advantage Lester.

    sandy was 19 as a rookie jon was 22

    Not too shabby, Jon! I've always held the position that Koufax benefitted from sympathy for his injury/ailment, in other words, had his career played out backwards, that is to say, had he been brilliant first, and then fallen into mediocrity, he would be just a foot note of interest, think fernando Valenzuela. Instead, he is the gold standard for Left-handers.

    [/QUOTE]

    3 cy youngs with no hitters in 4 straight yrs = a foot note ?

    come on youk

    stand up and tip your cap to sandy K

     

     

    thanks 4 bringing up lester though

    knowing he did worse  the yr B4 this good yr

    than CC did this yr is a sweet thought

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazy-world-of-troybrown. Show crazy-world-of-troybrown's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    Your kidding me. Remember reading Campanis years ago, when he Scouted him in UCincinnati.
    As soon as he HEARD him throw his fastball, he signed him. He didn't develop the 12-6 Curve till later, which ruined his arm. Almost unhittable after that.
    Bob Gibson described it as the ball falling off the table, best he ever saw.
    Very wild when he first came up.

    Retired at age 30, at that time he was 7th all-time, in Strikeouts.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

     

    sorry youk you shoulda stayed with  pedro vs Koufax

    I'm not here 2 knock lester, I wish we had him

    but you need 2 show sandy some more respect

     

    As great as Koufax was, he was not an instant success, or a counted upon member of the staff, until his fourth year in the bigs, and then posted a combined losing record as a starter for the next three seasons. (27-30, with an ERA over 4.00). Meanwhile Lester became a full time starter in his 3rd season, and then produced a 50-23 record in his first three seasons. Advantage Lester.

    sandy was 19 as a rookie jon was 22

    Not too shabby, Jon! I've always held the position that Koufax benefitted from sympathy for his injury/ailment, in other words, had his career played out backwards, that is to say, had he been brilliant first, and then fallen into mediocrity, he would be just a foot note of interest, think fernando Valenzuela. Instead, he is the gold standard for Left-handers.



    3 cy youngs with no hitters in 4 straight yrs = a foot note ?

    come on youk

    stand up and tip your cap to sandy K

     

     

    thanks 4 bringing up lester though

    knowing he did worse  the yr B4 this good yr

    than CC did this yr is a sweet thought

     




    Yeah, I'm sure CC's extra 5 yrs in the league and additional 1400 innings has nothing to do with his "off year", last year.

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:



    Yeah, I'm sure CC's extra 5 yrs in the league and additional 1400 innings has nothing to do with his "off year", last year.



    the gummies and 2 clicks every morning will fix that.......

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

     

    thanks 4 bringing up lester though

    knowing he did worse  the yr B4 this good yr

    than CC did this yr is a sweet thought

     




    Yeah, I'm sure CC's extra 5 yrs in the league and additional 1400 innings has nothing to do with his "off year", last year.



    I agree

     

     

     

     

     

     

    I don't understand

    what does CC's extra 5 yrs in the league and additional 1400 innings

    have 2 do with lesters bad yr ?

    players have bad yrs all the time

     

     

     

    lester 2012 - 205 inn

             2013 - 246 inn

                oh my

     

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    Let's take a look at our undervalued lefty, and the legendary "left hand of God", Sandy Koufax.

    As great as Koufax was, he was not an instant success, or a counted upon member of the staff, until his fourth year in the bigs, and then posted a combined losing record as a starter for the next three seasons. (27-30, with an ERA over 4.00). Meanwhile Lester became a full time starter in his 3rd season, and then produced a 50-23 record in his first three seasons. Advantage Lester.

    Koufax then put a a very good season, 18-13 3.52, improved again to14-7 2.54, and then became unhittable in the next 4 seasons, going 97-27, with an ERA of about 2.00. It is those four seasons that cemented his legaccy.

    Now, let's put Koufax into the modern era, and remove 25% of his starts, due to a five man rotation, he loses 38 wins from his total, down to 127 career wins against 68 losses. Put him into the AL, with it's DH, and add half a run to his ERA, 3.26. Now, lower the mound and add another 0.50 to his ERA to bring it to 3.78. Now let's look at Mr. Lester, and see his 100-56 record and his 3.76 ERA.

    Not too shabby, Jon! I've always held the position that Koufax benefitted from sympathy for his injury/ailment, in other words, had his career played out backwards, that is to say, had he been brilliant first, and then fallen into mediocrity, he would be just a foot note of interest, think fernando Valenzuela. Instead, he is the gold standard for Left-handers.




    Seriously, you are not really mentioning Lester in the same sentence as Sandy?

    Koufax has been described as: In the decade of the pitcher, he was the pitcher of the decade.

    It is really tough to compare the way you are.  Koufax and pitchers and even position players did not have the access to great trainers as they do now.  Locker room then and even as late as when Henry bought the sox, were not much better than high school locker rooms.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

     

    thanks 4 bringing up lester though

    knowing he did worse  the yr B4 this good yr

    than CC did this yr is a sweet thought

     




    Yeah, I'm sure CC's extra 5 yrs in the league and additional 1400 innings has nothing to do with his "off year", last year.



    I agree

     

     

     

     

     

     

    I don't understand

    what does CC's extra 5 yrs in the league and additional 1400 innings

    have 2 do with lesters bad yr ?

    players have bad yrs all the time

     

     

     

    lester 2012 - 205 inn

             2013 - 246 inn

                oh my

     

     




    If you don't understand the concept of extra wear and tear, I can't help you.

     

    You're right. Players have bad years all the time.

    Yankee fans have absolutely nothing to worry about, with CC.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    I think a more relevant comparison, especially for HOF consideration purposes, would be Schilling vs. Drysdale. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    This is where guys who play with numbers get way off base. Love Lester and what he means to RS, but comparing to one of the best LH pitchers of all time is a NO-NO for me. There are many out there who still question whether or not Lester is a true No.1, go by his post season stats no question he is, go by his regular season stats it could be debated. But still glad he's on our team and hope they lock him up for another 4-5 yrs in ST.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    Dustin Pedroia vs. Rogers Hornsby

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax


    Mike Napoli vs Lou Gehrig

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    Dustin Pedroia vs. Rogers Hornsby

    in the only stat that matters...height..advantage Hornsby Tongue Out

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    Dustin Pedroia vs. Rogers Hornsby

    in the only stat that matters...height..advantage Hornsby Tongue Out

    j/k..roughly the same height...


     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from dustcover. Show dustcover's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to youkillus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    To paraphrase Sen. Llloyd Bentsen, I saw Sandy pitch, and Lester is no Sandy Koufax. And respectfully, I believe if you had seen Koufax pitch, albeit in his heyday, you would have an entirely different perspective.

    Statistics may tell one story, but Koufax was truly magnificent.  And that's coming from a Red Sox fan who saw the likes of Dave Ferriss, Tex Hughson, Joe Dobson, Mickey Harris, etc. 

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax


    no disrespect to Youk, but perhaps we should just let him be Jon Lester first...

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    I get where Youk is coming from though.  Lester is putting together a pretty awesome career, especially considering the division and ballpark.  He goes awry when he starts making comparisons based on adjusted numbers of course.  Sandy had perhaps the most devastating curveball to ever be thrown and his most legendary outing was one in which he couldn't even throw that pitch, as he was on two days rest and had to throw fastballs for nine innings, in the world series, and he was lights out.  Lester has a really good cutter.  But, as he has learned the hard way that you cant lean on a cutter the way you can a dissappearing 12-6.  They are nowhere near the same calibre of pitcher.  But if Youkillus' point is to give credit where credit is due and not enough is given, Lester, indeed, should go down as legendary for his career.  Not Koufax legendary.  But legendary.

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    I get where Youk is coming from though.  Lester is putting together a pretty awesome career, especially considering the division and ballpark.  He goes awry when he starts making comparisons based on adjusted numbers of course.  Sandy had perhaps the most devastating curveball to ever be thrown and his most legendary outing was one in which he couldn't even throw that pitch, as he was on two days rest and had to throw fastballs for nine innings, in the world series, and he was lights out.  Lester has a really good cutter.  But, as he has learned the hard way that you cant lean on a cutter the way you can a dissappearing 12-6.  They are nowhere near the same calibre of pitcher.  But if Youkillus' point is to give credit where credit is due and not enough is given, Lester, indeed, should go down as legendary for his career.  Not Koufax legendary.  But legendary.



    Here's a guy who gets it. Lester is under appreciated. No, he's not Sandy Koufax. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    I get where Youk is coming from though.  Lester is putting together a pretty awesome career, especially considering the division and ballpark.  He goes awry when he starts making comparisons based on adjusted numbers of course.  Sandy had perhaps the most devastating curveball to ever be thrown and his most legendary outing was one in which he couldn't even throw that pitch, as he was on two days rest and had to throw fastballs for nine innings, in the world series, and he was lights out.  Lester has a really good cutter.  But, as he has learned the hard way that you cant lean on a cutter the way you can a dissappearing 12-6.  They are nowhere near the same calibre of pitcher.  But if Youkillus' point is to give credit where credit is due and not enough is given, Lester, indeed, should go down as legendary for his career.  Not Koufax legendary.  But legendary.



    Here's a guy who gets it. Lester is under appreciated. No, he's not Sandy Koufax. 



    Youk, 

    I was abut to pick on you unmercifally of course comparing one of the greatest pitchers, Koufax to J. Lester.     Kidding of course. 

    I won't get deep into your adjusted stats etc, but I did see Koufax pitch on the TV tube when I was younger as I'm truly an old farrrt at 65. I do remember one commentator describing the Koufax fast ball as looking like it was dropping off of a plate. His curveball was devastating and add his 97-98mph fastball he was almost unhittable. True he did pitch in the NL without a DH but I doubt his stats wouldn't have greatly changed if pitching later on, but that's only my opinion. Comparing eras 40+ years apart is almost impossible. 

    When you see his stats and then compare them to Pedro's stats it makes you appreciate what Pedro accomplished all the more pitching in more of a hitters era with some on Peds as well as facing lineups with a DH.

    Cheers, Hetch 

     
  • This post has been removed.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    Youk,

    With respect, I think your analogy is an insult to Koufax.  And I've been a major supporter of Lester through think and thin.

    While Sandy's peak was tragically short, it was only so due to injury.

    I assume your OP is a supportive nod toward Lester, and a sly dig at the {intelligent, patient and reasonable??} people that wanted to dump him after 2012.  ;-)  Well done!

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    FFS, what a disappointing world we live in!  I posted my comment after only reading Youk's funny, ironic OP.  On review of the rest, half got the irony, and the other half started ironing their shirts.

     
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