Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to JoseLaguna's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    OK then Lester hasn't been given his due but comparing him to Sandy Koufax had only one purpose and Youk accomplished that. Spaceman saw this as did nearly every other poster on the thread. The forum was ready to rank Lester as starter #6 last spring and trade him away and Youk never said a word back then and now he is comparing Lester to Koufax. Talk about fickle.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's not my thing to get into every delusion that posters have about our guys. The fact is, Ive been supporting Lester for years on this forum. My last "Lester Comparison" thread was a couple of years ago with Clay. In it, I noted something like Buch would have to go 53-3 to reach parity with Lester. Buchholz was getting all the love because of his "stuff", meanwhile Lester was a dominating machine with a winning percentage among baseball's immortals. 

    The fact that he is left-handed bodes well for his longevity, another advantage he has over Mr. B. Not fickle, just consistent.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Youk,

    With respect, I think your analogy is an insult to Koufax.  And I've been a major supporter of Lester through think and thin.

    While Sandy's peak was tragically short, it was only so due to injury.

    I assume your OP is a supportive nod toward Lester, and a sly dig at the {intelligent, patient and reasonable??} people that wanted to dump him after 2012.  ;-)  Well done!

    [/QUOTE]

    Hi Sonic, 

    Just one very minor correction. It was not any injury that forced Koufax to retire at age 30 it was a very serious condition called traumatic arthritis. It was either retire or possibly lose the use of his arm that I remember.

    Hetch 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Youk,

    With respect, I think your analogy is an insult to Koufax.  And I've been a major supporter of Lester through think and thin.

    While Sandy's peak was tragically short, it was only so due to injury.

    I assume your OP is a supportive nod toward Lester, and a sly dig at the {intelligent, patient and reasonable??} people that wanted to dump him after 2012.  ;-)  Well done!

    [/QUOTE]

    Hi Sonic, 

    Just one very minor correction. It was not any injury that forced Koufax to retire at age 30 it was a very serious condition called traumatic arthritis. It was either retire or possibly lose the use of his arm that I remember.

    Hetch 

    [/QUOTE]

    I probably should look it up, but that's what I remember about it too.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    Youk's OP is actually one of his better ones. I also liked his Jose Offerman thread. I think everbody is over-reacting and too quick to worship at the altar of Sandy Koufax. The fact that Koufax went out after his most dominant years does impact our view of his career. Had he been able to keep playing, he most likely would not have sustained the same level of brilliance. His lack of longevity makes him look better, while it hurts our perception of some other talented pitchers. It is also difficult to evaluate a career due to differences in the era they played in, the length of their career, and the brilliance of their peak years.

    Personally, I discount any awards won. After all, how do we evaluate those who played during Cy Young's time, including Cy himself? Should postseason perfomances count and if so, to what degree? A pitcher can't control the overall success of his team. There is food for thought in this OP if you take a deep breath and think about it.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to devildavid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Youk's OP is actually one of his better ones. I also liked his Jose Offerman thread. I think everbody is over-reacting and too quick to worship at the altar of Sandy Koufax. The fact that Koufax went out after his most dominant years does impact our view of his career. Had he been able to keep playing, he most likely would not have sustained the same level of brilliance. His lack of longevity makes him look better, while it hurts our perception of some other talented pitchers. It is also difficult to evaluate a career due to differences in the era they played in, the length of their career, and the brilliance of their peak years.

    Personally, I discount any awards won. After all, how do we evaluate those who played during Cy Young's time, including Cy himself? Should postseason perfomances count and if so, to what degree? A pitcher can't control the overall success of his team. There is food for thought in this OP if you take a deep breath and think about it.

    [/QUOTE]

    Here's a counterpoint; if his arm didn't fall off, and he went longer; those early season struggles would have had even less of an impact on his overall stellar #s; including the compilation of Ws, No Hitters, and Ks.

    Having said that, let me remind this forum that Lester was largely in the forum dog house mid season, where some called to get rid of him, until he ripped into ace form the 2nd half & PS; after what I saw in the PS; I'll take him anytime; he's just not Koufax.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to nhsteven's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Having said that, let me remind this forum that Lester was largely in the forum dog house mid season, where some called to get rid of him, until he ripped into ace form the 2nd half & PS; after what I saw in the PS; I'll take him anytime; he's just not Koufax.

    [/QUOTE]

    Quite true, and here are the numbers that explain why he was in the dog house.

    For the month of September/11 his ERA was 5.40.

    For the 2012 season his ERA was 4.82.

    For the 2013 season up to August 2, his ERA was 4.52.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to nhsteven's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Here's a counterpoint; if his arm didn't fall off, and he went longer; those early season struggles would have had even less of an impact on his overall stellar #s; including the compilation of Ws, No Hitters, and Ks.

    Having said that, let me remind this forum that Lester was largely in the forum dog house mid season, where some called to get rid of him, until he ripped into ace form the 2nd half & PS; after what I saw in the PS; I'll take him anytime; he's just not Koufax.

    [/QUOTE]

    If he went longer he also could have become less effective and put up more numbers similar to his early career. I have to discount Win totals, as pitchers were utilized differently during Koufax's time. No hitters and K totals are not in and of themselves necessarily signs of greatness. I don't think the point of the OP is to equate these two pitchers, it is more to bridge the huge gap in our perception of them. I don't care what others in the forum said about Lester, I was consistently a staunch defender.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax


    Devildad, thanks for the support. I'll throw this out there too. Texas Rangers' GM/OWNER/LEGEND retired Nolan Ryan and his innings philosophy was heralded as the way.

    The pitchers under his program now have all tanked and faced surgery, not one blip from the knights of the keyboard. Colby Lewis, Tommy John, Alexi Ogando, Tommy John, Matt Harrison, back surgery, CJ Wilson, shoulder surgery one year after leaving Texas, and now Derek Holland, knee surgery. Yu Darvish should be making an appointment any day now. Legends are untouchable.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to devildavid's comment:

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:


    Here's a counterpoint; if his arm didn't fall off, and he went longer; those early season struggles would have had even less of an impact on his overall stellar #s; including the compilation of Ws, No Hitters, and Ks.

    Having said that, let me remind this forum that Lester was largely in the forum dog house mid season, where some called to get rid of him, until he ripped into ace form the 2nd half & PS; after what I saw in the PS; I'll take him anytime; he's just not Koufax.

     



    If he went longer he also could have become less effective and put up more numbers similar to his early career. I have to discount Win totals, as pitchers were utilized differently during Koufax's time. No hitters and K totals are not in and of themselves necessarily signs of greatness. I don't think the point of the OP is to equate these two pitchers, it is more to bridge the huge gap in our perception of them. I don't care what others in the forum said about Lester, I was consistently a staunch defender.

     




    Yes, that was two counterpoints ago, although I think the latter yrs wouldn't have had the same impact as the earlier ones.. As far as no-hitters and Ks are concerned, while really just a side show, show me a pitcher with alot of both of them that's not in the HOF. Speaking of, here's another overlooked item, which is kind of a dinosaur today  - CGs.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to youkillus' comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Devildad, thanks for the support. I'll throw this out there too. Texas Rangers' GM/OWNER/LEGEND retired Nolan Ryan and his innings philosophy was heralded as the way.

    The pitchers under his program now have all tanked and faced surgery, not one blip from the knights of the keyboard. Colby Lewis, Tommy John, Alexi Ogando, Tommy John, Matt Harrison, back surgery, CJ Wilson, shoulder surgery one year after leaving Texas, and now Derek Holland, knee surgery. Yu Darvish should be making an appointment any day now. Legends are untouchable.

    [/QUOTE]

    What about the A's starters (Mulder, Hudson, etc.,) or the 2012 Red Sox starters.... they were not asked to pitch under Nolans vision. Just because Texas starters are falling apart doesn't mean it is due to Nolan Ryans vision of pitching.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from billge. Show billge's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    sonic real smart  koufax real good lester ok

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    In response to youkillus' comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Devildad, thanks for the support. I'll throw this out there too. Texas Rangers' GM/OWNER/LEGEND retired Nolan Ryan and his innings philosophy was heralded as the way.

    The pitchers under his program now have all tanked and faced surgery, not one blip from the knights of the keyboard. Colby Lewis, Tommy John, Alexi Ogando, Tommy John, Matt Harrison, back surgery, CJ Wilson, shoulder surgery one year after leaving Texas, and now Derek Holland, knee surgery. Yu Darvish should be making an appointment any day now. Legends are untouchable.

    [/QUOTE]

    The one thing, however, is that it was all a myth. If you followed those guys, none of them worked an inordinate amount of innings nor went to high pitch counts. Their pitch counts were right in line with what all starters work. So regardless of what Nolan Ryan said publicly, the reality is that they were no different than any other team.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Jon Lester vs. Sandy Koufax

    You can make an arguement that Lester is a very good starting pitcher, even though some would suggest he's a boderline No.1. IMO Lester is a very good starter [No.1] when his mehanics are right, and seems John Farrell / Juan Nieves have gotten him back on the right path, who also happens to pitch very well in the post season. But comparing to Sandy Koufax is bit of a stretch even if some on ths forum wanted him gone. Look Lester will go on to a very fine career and be RS HOF'r but unless something drastic happens in Lester career the next 5-7 years, I have a hard time believing he will join Koufax in MLB HOF, even if he adds another 100 wins that gives him 200 for career which will probably fall way short. Maybe a better comparson is Bruce Hurst who was another fine LH starter for RS who I always liked and would take Lester over every day of the week.

     
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