Jumping Ship?

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    Jumping Ship?

    During all this drama, it has never really been established if the departure of Francona was voluntary, mutual, or mandatory. The fact that Epstein has now also departed the pattern makes it even more suspect.
    Did these guys quit on the team, or were they asked to go elsewhere by the owners.
    If the former is true, where is all the outrage? How could these guys just leave us fans in the learch? After all, the conventional wisdom by the majority of posters here, feel that Tito and Theo were the best managing combo in Red Sox history. They could do no wrong!
    If the latter be true, then perhaps they are not as good as they thought they were. And I'd find it a bit specious that the owners made the call, without input, not necessarily verbal, from the players.
    It has been rumored that the players quit on their manager. Perhaps the favoritism was finally too much to ignore.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    I have actually had the thought pass my mind that many of the players did at some point, possibly right after the day-night doubleheader, mail in Sept. I just can't beleive that is the case, professional players quitting when they are 9 games up to make a point against management like a bunch of little leaguers. We will never really know for sure if this did in fact happen.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    There comes a time where everything runs its course. It happened with Torre and it has now happened with Tito.

    As to the Epstein issue, I cannot speak. But in his defense, there is no GM in the game that I know of that can sign a player to a contract without Ownership signing off on the money aspect. However, there are owner's which can sign a player without the GM's approval. And any F.O. which feels it can defer all blame for bad F.A. signings onto the GM is just talking the cowardly way out.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    We can't know everything. Some people find this frustrating. I find this frustrating, anyway; I'm the kind of person who wants to know as much as he can about everything, whether the subject is quantum physics or old commercials. But the sad fact is, there are many things we'll never know. The truth may be lost to the sands of time. The answers may not be comprehensible to our human brains. Or maybe some events simply don't have one, true cause.

    That last concept is the hardest to wrap our brains around. Because we can always hope that some historic artifact will reveal the truth about, say, who was Jack the Ripper, or who really shot JFK. And we can always hope science will advance to the point where we can learn and do things we never could before. But the idea that things just happen, from all standpoints--evolutionary, philosophical, theological--this thought just bugs us.

    And so we look for causes where there may not be any because there have to be some, right? Otherwise nothing makes sense. That is why the Boston Globe dedicated many precious column inches to an exhaustive article by Bob Hohler on the subject of why the Red Sox collapsed in September. It reads less like investigative journalism and more like a wounded spouse's litany of all the horrible things their significant other did to them over the years.

    Matthew Callan

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    In Response to Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]During all this drama, it has never really been established if the departure of Francona was voluntary, mutual, or mandatory. The fact that Epstein has now also departed the pattern makes it even more suspect. Did these guys quit on the team, or were they asked to go elsewhere by the owners. If the former is true, where is all the outrage? How could these guys just leave us fans in the learch? After all, the conventional wisdom by the majority of posters here, feel that Tito and Theo were the best managing combo in Red Sox history. They could do no wrong! If the latter be true, then perhaps they are not as good as they thought they were. And I'd find it a bit specious that the owners made the call, without input, not necessarily verbal, from the players. It has been rumored that the players quit on their manager. Perhaps the favoritism was finally too much to ignore.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]Just because the two guys are leaving doesn't in and of itself connect their leaving.

    Francona's contract had expired with the RS having the option to renew it. The team missed the playoffs two years in a row, whether it was his fault or not, when an organization spends what the RS did both years that it performance is not likely to earn the manager a renewal.

    Epstein has been courted by the Cubs via new leaks for two months. His contract has one year on it. Short of extending Epstein's current contract and expanding his powers there is not much the RS could really do about Epstein, unless they flat refused to let him talk to the Cubs.

    As far as the managing tandem being the best the RS have ever had, find a period of time in the live ball ERA (90 years) where the RS had the level of success they did with those two. You won't. So I suppose how you define best ever matters.

    The tenure of these two ran its course. If Epstein had 3 years left on his deal and no suitors I think he'd be here. But with suitors the idea of moving to a new venue is appealing to him. Frankly Boston is a grind. And from the ownership's point of view, why hold a guy here for one year against his will and why would you reward him at this moment with more power and an extension?

    Francona likely would have been gone even if his contract did not have such a clean break built into it. Field managers and their coaches tend to be the ones to go when players under perform. And while the RS pitching in September was under manned and the prospects of the team going far in the post season were grim, the failure to back into the playoffs was under performance.

    What really is the point of the OP?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    I think Francona was readay to leave and the sox were more than ok with faciliating it..FYI the terms of his contract had the sox exprcise his option, they'd have had to have picked up both 2012 and 2013...

    Epstein is leaving for a career advancement opportunity the job he wants with the Red Sox is already taken...President & CEO a position he will have a much easier road to achieve in the Cubs organization...


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    Pinstripezac is still trying to figure out exactly why Yogi Berra was fired after taking his Yankees to the 1964 World Series seventh game and losing.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    In Response to Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]During all this drama, it has never really been established if the departure of Francona was voluntary, mutual, or mandatory. The fact that Epstein has now also departed the pattern makes it even more suspect. Did these guys quit on the team, or were they asked to go elsewhere by the owners. If the former is true, where is all the outrage? How could these guys just leave us fans in the learch? After all, the conventional wisdom by the majority of posters here, feel that Tito and Theo were the best managing combo in Red Sox history. They could do no wrong! If the latter be true, then perhaps they are not as good as they thought they were. And I'd find it a bit specious that the owners made the call, without input, not necessarily verbal, from the players. It has been rumored that the players quit on their manager. Perhaps the favoritism was finally too much to ignore.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    Tito failed to miss the playoffs two straight years.  He also lost control over what certain players did.  Theo "like Bean mentioned" is looking for a career advancement but in my opinion skipped town after making huge mistakes he would have a hard time correcting so management probably could care less if he bails.  Theo in Chicago isn't going to be what the Cubs fans or management invisioned and we will be fine without him.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    I would not want to work under the microscope of the Boston media and fans.

    Tito and Theo avoided the backlash and venom of unreasonable, cowardly , moronic people for years because they are associated with success early in their tenure in Soxland.

    When things go bad in BOSTON RED SOX COUNTRY, I often think of this old saying that describes the frenzy that fills the lives of the senseless, crybaby mentality that abounds among media types and fairweather fans:

    'When in danger or in doubt, run in circles , scream and shout."
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

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    In Response to Re: Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Jumping Ship? : Tito failed to miss the playoffs two straight years.  He also lost control over what certain players did.  Theo "like Bean mentioned" is looking for a career advancement but in my opinion skipped town after making huge mistakes he would have a hard time correcting so management probably could care less if he bails.  Theo in Chicago isn't going to be what the Cubs fans or management invisioned and we will be fine without him.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Will you be leaving us and going to the Cubs forum next year? I'll bet that you could liven up that droll forum.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    Zilla...you cant have it both ways...to be feted by the Nation when times are good and then to not be criticized when things go badly...that is the nature of the beast...so many on this board spent up until the very last day of Tito's regime defending him for his coaching despite all the common sense staring us in the face everyday for an entire month (or for many us, every day for three years)...he has nothing to whine about...he cashed that goodwill of the fans until the day he left...and now he is gone because of his own undoing...not us critical of him
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    In Response to Re: Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]Zilla...you cant have it both ways...to be feted by the Nation when times are good and then to not be criticized when things go badly...that is the nature of the beast...so many on this board spent up until the very last day of Tito's regime defending him for his coaching despite all the common sense staring us in the face everyday for an entire month (or for many us, every day for three years)...he has nothing to whine about...he cashed that goodwill of the fans until the day he left...and now he is gone because of his own undoing...not us critical of him
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    I've never seen any FO staff, managers, coaches, and players ever get "feted" in this forum - not even during good times. The prevailing mood in here is to ignore praise and not to cheerlead. Most threads from May-August were about bashing Drew, Crawford, Lackey, Tito, Jenks, Reddick, and others. You definitely can't have it both ways since praise is verboten here.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    In Response to Re: Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Jumping Ship? : Just because the two guys are leaving doesn't in and of itself connect their leaving. Francona's contract had expired with the RS having the option to renew it. The team missed the playoffs two years in a row, whether it was his fault or not, when an organization spends what the RS did both years that it performance is not likely to earn the manager a renewal. Epstein has been courted by the Cubs via new leaks for two months. His contract has one year on it. Short of extending Epstein's current contract and expanding his powers there is not much the RS could really do about Epstein, unless they flat refused to let him talk to the Cubs. As far as the managing tandem being the best the RS have ever had, find a period of time in the live ball ERA (90 years) where the RS had the level of success they did with those two. You won't. So I suppose how you define best ever matters. The tenure of these two ran its course. If Epstein had 3 years left on his deal and no suitors I think he'd be here. But with suitors the idea of moving to a new venue is appealing to him. Frankly Boston is a grind. And from the ownership's point of view, why hold a guy here for one year against his will and why would you reward him at this moment with more power and an extension? Francona likely would have been gone even if his contract did not have such a clean break built into it. Field managers and their coaches tend to be the ones to go when players under perform. And while the RS pitching in September was under manned and the prospects of the team going far in the post season were grim, the failure to back into the playoffs was under performance. What really is the point of the OP?
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    The point of the OP is that we as fans deserve an explanation as to why the team mailed it in. No, we are not stockholders in the strictist sense of the word, but without the fans, there would be no baseball.
    Some on here (FLJim) attritbute the collapse to poor play, plain and simple, but there is just too much evidence, however circumstantial, to suggest otherwise.

    I guess I was hoping someone from this forum, who might have inside information, share with the rest of us the truth of the matter. Unfortunately, reprisals would most likely preclude anything of that nature happening.
    So, I will drop the subject and just speculate what our chances might be in 2012.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    In Response to Re: Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]We can't know everything. Some people find this frustrating. I find this frustrating, anyway; I'm the kind of person who wants to know as much as he can about everything, whether the subject is quantum physics or old commercials . But the sad fact is, there are many things we'll never know. The truth may be lost to the sands of time. The answers may not be comprehensible to our human brains. Or maybe some events simply don't have one, true cause. That last concept is the hardest to wrap our brains around. Because we can always hope that some historic artifact will reveal the truth about, say, who was Jack the Ripper, or who really shot JFK. And we can always hope science will advance to the point where we can learn and do things we never could before. But the idea that things just happen, from all standpoints--evolutionary, philosophical, theological--this thought just bugs us. And so we look for causes where there may not be any because there have to be some, right? Otherwise nothing makes sense. That is why the Boston Globe dedicated many precious column inches to an exhaustive article by Bob Hohler on the subject of why the Red Sox collapsed in September . It reads less like investigative journalism and more like a wounded spouse's litany of all the horrible things their significant other did to them over the years. Matthew Callan
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Did you read this Ike? Why was Yogi fired after the World Series in 1964?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

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    In Response to Re: Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jumping Ship? : Did you read this Ike? Why was Yogi fired after the World Series in 1964?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Yes, and it is spot on. Still doens't make me feel any better.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

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    In Response to Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]How could these guys just leave us fans in the learch?
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    I'm still trying to figure out what a "learch" is.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

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    In Response to Re: Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Jumping Ship? : Tito failed to miss the playoffs two straight years.  Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    I was under the impression he succeeded in missing the playoffs 2 straight years.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: Jumping Ship?

    In Response to Re: Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jumping Ship? : I've never seen any FO staff, managers, coaches, and players ever get "feted" in this forum - not even during good times. The prevailing mood in here is to ignore praise and not to cheerlead. Most threads from May-August were about bashing Drew, Crawford, Lackey, Tito, Jenks, Reddick, and others. You definitely can't have it both ways since praise is verboten here.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    While your point is well-taken, I think you are making the mistake of thinking this forum is the representative collective voice of all things Sox.

    Tito was most certainly "feted" over the years for his success by many, regardless of some criticism, and the expression "In Theo We Trust" was pretty prevalent by Sox fans for a long time.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

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    We are all disappointed. Why didn't Papelbon throw one more strike in the last game. Why did Johnson, a .164 hitter, hit a HR to tie NYY with two outs and two strikes on him. Why didn't Jacoby catch that fly ball that turned into a three run inside-the-park HR?  Was Adrian Gonzalez right when he said that it wasn't meant to be? Why were the planets in perfect allignment for us in the 2004 ALCS?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

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    In Response to Re: Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jumping Ship? : While your point is well-taken, I think you are making the mistake of thinking this forum is the representative collective voice of all things Sox. Tito was most certainly "feted" over the years for his success by many, regardless of some criticism, and the expression "In Theo We Trust" was pretty prevalent by Sox fans for a long time.
    Posted by SoxFanInIL[/QUOTE]

    The signature of "In Theo We Trust" was an expression of sarcasm by a chronic Theo basher.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

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    In Response to Re: Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Jumping Ship? : I'm still trying to figure out what a "learch" is.
    Posted by SoxFanInIL[/QUOTE]

    Don't know why I spelled lurch that way....brain-f*rt I guess.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

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    In Response to Jumping Ship?:
    [QUOTE]During all this drama, it has never really been established if the departure of Francona was voluntary, mutual, or mandatory. 

      By the tone of Terry's response, it was not voluntary - he makes it clear that the owners (by a large enough percentage) no longer supported him here.  The unlwillingness of the owners to pick up his option makes that clear, even to me.
      Having negotiated contracts before, even as a middle man, the stand taken by some that "it was his/her decision to leave/break off negotiations" quite often is the by word for we really weren't interested in making the offer in true or good faith, and wouldn't offer if the issue is pursued.

      
    The fact that Epstein has now also departed the pattern makes it even more suspect.

      The fact that the owners/FO were willing to entertain the offer/interest to talk to Theo with almost two months left in the season shows the clear intent of the leadership core to cut ties with Theo.  They gave permission to begin talks.  That says more than all the "Gee, I wonder who was up to what?" mindset. 

    Did these guys quit on the team, or were they asked to go elsewhere by the owners. If the former is true, where is all the outrage?

    Terry certainly did not quit on the team.  Theo may have seen the writing on the wall, or he may have already known that the very public statements by Lucchino and Werner in the offseason last (before this season just ended) about big deals being made we evidence that his ride was over.  The feeling by the owners that they had to assure the fan base more was coming, guaranteed, certainly took the pen out of Theo's hand. 



    How could these guys just leave us fans in the learch? After all, the conventional wisdom by the majority of posters here, feel that Tito and Theo were the best managing combo in Red Sox history.
     
    Yes.  They were.  At least within the time frame of since Babe Ruth was a Red Sox.  Facts are facts .... these can easily be tabulated.

    They could do no wrong!

    No one ever made that claim.  What I certainly did state, over and over, was that they DID do a better job.  Mistakes certainly were made.  In the FO, dugout and on the field.  This isn't a cornfield in a farmer's dream where a baseball diamond alone will call the spirit's of the great ones out of the ether.

    Many of us did state our opinioins of where mistakes were made.  But we didn't crucify Tito if the players didn't play well enough.  We did discuss the better and worse trades or picks Theo had a hand in ... but personally found no reason to villify him when some didn't pan out. 

    To that point, the VAST MAJORITY of signings do not pan out and too many  trades end up being busts ... and I mean all through the MLs, not just the Sox.  Theo DID help construct one of the better minor league systems.  Or atleast, he helped to tune it up enough so that we could actually talk about a half dozen or a dozen real prospects that looked good, some even excitingly good.  That is opposed to the days when we looked as saw just one or two or maybe a few ....



    If the latter be true, then perhaps they are not as good as they thought they were.




    And I'd find it a bit specious that the owners made the call, without input, not necessarily verbal, from the players. It has been rumored that the players quit on their manager.
     
    Perhaps the favoritism was finally too much to ignore.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]
     

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