Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    The "WAR flush" posters don't like the geeks taking over and according to Kapler many players are unaware of how front offices (the geeks) are judging them.  Interestingly, he thinks players may even be hurting their own performances because they are worried about metrics like counting pitcher wins and RBI totals, that aren't even important to the GM.

    "At some point, Ben opened my eyes wide when he sent me a study on the sacrifice bunt and the value of the out in major league baseball at the time. I considered myself to be a student of the game, but this was the first time I had a baseball man illuminate such a study. It was at that point that I realized that baseball players are not the most educated people in our game — far from it." Kapler

     

    http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2013/07/22/stats-101-time-to-re-educate-players-in-meaningful-statistics/

     

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/link-gabe-kapler-on-the-information-gap/

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    No one stat tells the whole story, but I have to say Ortiz is valued right now in large part because he leads the team in rbi's despite missing a bunch of games.  Last night most of us went nuts when Napoli, who got that early 3 run dinger to get the Sox back in the game, struck out with lots of ducks on the pond.  Then the dinger to win it all.  I don't care if Ellsbury gets a lot of rbi's, but loved in 2011 when he had 105 while leading off. 

    And last night it sure was hard to see how really rotten and stupid bunts are.  It's how Iglesias got on base and later scored in the 4th.  It's how the Yankees drove the Sox nuts in the 7th. 

    Sabermetrics are probably the right approach, but I still like the occasional rbi and/or bunt.  For old times sake.   

    And here's a new stat.  Pitchers making a good throw to 2b to start a double play.  Ours can't seem to do it, maybe because they are usually standing on the mound. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    "Pitchers making a throw to 2b to start a doubleplay."

    How would we abbreviate this stat in the box scores?

    PMT2BSDB?...a liitle too long even for the geeks and mathematicians.

    I choose to stick with the stats that never get old. The stats that always tell who is doing good and who isn't. For batters AVG., RBI, HR, SLG. %. For starting pitchers W/L...ERA , IP. For fielders FLDG. % , # of E. For relievers, Holds and saves, and for all pitchers the most important stat...walk to strikeout ratio.

    "All the president is, is a glorified public relations man who spends his time flattering, kissing and kicking people to get them to do what they are supposed to do anyway." - Harry S. Truman

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    Ideally, players should be focusing on every at bat and thinking about what is the best approach in that situation and adjusting that approach pitch by pitch.  The stats will merely reflect that afterwards, whether they are the old school stats or the modern, new-fangled ones.  Players should be focused on the game and not their stats.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    players need to understand metrics as much as they need to understand the periodic tables to succeed at baseball

     

    WAR <flush>

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    More stats are better. Can't have too much information when analyzing player performances. My issue is when certain stats are focused on to demonstrate strengths or weaknesses while others are ignored that would counter them. Use all the information all the time. It takes more effort, but the information gained is more valuable.





    "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
    - Thomas Jefferson

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.


    I'd rather see a player in tue to winning, and getting exceited over a bloop hit as opposed to a line drive out to shortstop.

     

    Leave the sabermetrics to the non-players (like me) and play ball...

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Archer1. Show Archer1's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    I agree with Sheriff Rojas...

    you don't want your players focusing on metrics and stats while on the field. You want them focusing on the situation and how to react accordingly. 

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    I'd rather see a player in tue to winning, and getting exceited over a bloop hit as opposed to a line drive out to shortstop.

    Kapler is not saying that, the hit is what the player wants.

     

    Leave the sabermetrics to the non-players (like me) and play ball...

     

    I'm not sure you get the point Notin.  The players would help the team win more if they had a higher OBP rather than BA.  The saber stats are important because they help the team win.   Look at the Cameron example of Votto 44 RBI and Phillips 79 RBI, and Phillips is complaining about who gets the big contract.

    I'm not sure the posters above have read Kapler's article.  It hurts the team if a pitcher is pressing because he has not won four straight, even if he pitched well then maybe he needs to be educated.  The same with Pedroia a few years back his homers were down and Francona said he was pressing because of it.   Pedroia should know that if his OBP is great and he is leading the league in doubles, he should not be pressing.  Focussing on the HR number on the scoreboard makes no sense.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    In response to tom-uk's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    I'd rather see a player in tue to winning, and getting exceited over a bloop hit as opposed to a line drive out to shortstop.

    Kapler is not saying that, the hit is what the player wants.

     

    Leave the sabermetrics to the non-players (like me) and play ball...

     

    I'm not sure you get the point Notin.  The players would help the team win more if they had a higher OBP rather than BA.  The saber stats are important because they help the team win.   Look at the Cameron example of Votto 44 RBI and Phillips 79 RBI, and Phillips is complaining about who gets the big contract.

    I'm not sure the posters above have read Kapler's article.  It hurts the team if a pitcher is pressing because he has not won four straight, even if he pitched well then maybe he needs to be educated.  The same with Pedroia a few years back his homers were down and Francona said he was pressing because of it.   Pedroia should know that if his OBP is great and he is leading the league in doubles, he should not be pressing.  Focussing on the HR number on the scoreboard makes no sense.

     



    This makes no sense at all - Pedroia was "pressing" because he was in batting sitruations where he might have needed to get extra base hits, because of pitch selecton, or whatever reason that he determined to be important to help his team win. Are you saying he should think about metrics first? All batters take big swings - the difference is some have enough power to jack it regularly. Hitting solely for contact/OBP is weird and puts the player's stats above the team's needs. Help your team win and damn the stats.

    WAR <flush>

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    And here's a new stat.  Pitchers making a good throw to 2b to start a double play.  Ours can't seem to do it, maybe because they are usually standing on the mound. 



    People don't understand how difficult this is for a pitcher to do.  Speaking as an ex-pitcher (but certainly not one who was good enough to get paid for it!), a pitcher gets a chance to think about 95% of what he does.  He normally throws the ball 60' 6" from the same spot on the rubber and downhill.  That's his comfort zone.

    It's when he doesn't get to do those things that he gets into trouble.  He's suddenly throwing from a different distance than that and using a different arm angle.  He's most usually throwing either on the flat or uphill, and he has to make the play without thinking about it. So he starts to think:  "How far away am I? How hard should I throw this thing? Where's my foot going to land?  How much time do I have?  OMG I'm spending too much time thinking!" 

    Since throwing is very much a reflexive and instinctive thing, once a person starts thinking about a throw it's a recipe for disaster.   Remember Chuck Knoblauch of the Y's?  It's the same thing that happend to him, only Knoblauch was playing 2B.

    I'mnot saying it's what SHOULD happen, I'm just saying that it's what sometimes happens.     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    Only with a the proper amount of "Stats" mixed with "the human element" will one achieve the proper baseball balance. ~~ southpaw777~~

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    This is why I love prospect Garin Cecchini.  He's a baseball rat, if he wasn't naturally gifted he could probably be writing for fangraphs.  Some guys just have a deeper understanding for the game than others.  Guys like Dustin Pedrioa who udnerstand the value of taking a walk, moving the runner over, hussling from 1st to third.

    I think people assume that just because these guys are the best of the best and naturally gifted that they "know" the game.  Of course the "know" the game, but some do on such a higher level. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    I loved this article.

    No one wants a player thinking about any of his stats while on the field, whether it's a traditional stat like RBIs or a newer one like wOBA.  That was not the point of the article. 

    I love the saberstats, but as a fan watching the game, the last thing I am thinking when I see Iggy make a great play is that his UZR must be off the charts.  I am simply thinking what an awesome play that was and am enjoying the beauty of it.

    That said, the sabergeeks have shown how so much of the conventional thinking in baseball is wrong.  Most FOs have gotten on board with this, at least to some extent.  IMO, most managers have not.  Kapler's mention of the bunt analysis is a perfect example.

    While I think it is important for the players to have a deeper understanding of the numbers, I think it is far more important for GMs and managers to have a deeper understanding of the numbers.  It wouldn't hurt if the players' agents understood them as well.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    And here's a new stat.  Pitchers making a good throw to 2b to start a double play.  Ours can't seem to do it, maybe because they are usually standing on the mound. 

     



    People don't understand how difficult this is for a pitcher to do.  Speaking as an ex-pitcher (but certainly not one who was good enough to get paid for it!), a pitcher gets a chance to think about 95% of what he does.  He normally throws the ball 60' 6" from the same spot on the rubber and downhill.  That's his comfort zone.

     

    It's when he doesn't get to do those things that he gets into trouble.  He's suddenly throwing from a different distance than that and using a different arm angle.  He's most usually throwing either on the flat or uphill, and he has to make the play without thinking about it. So he starts to think:  "How far away am I? How hard should I throw this thing? Where's my foot going to land?  How much time do I have?  OMG I'm spending too much time thinking!" 

    Since throwing is very much a reflexive and instinctive thing, once a person starts thinking about a throw it's a recipe for disaster.   Remember Chuck Knoblauch of the Y's?  It's the same thing that happend to him, only Knoblauch was playing 2B.

    I'mnot saying it's what SHOULD happen, I'm just saying that it's what sometimes happens.     




    thanks S5  4 reminding me of  mo in gm 7 2001 WS

     

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    I loved this article.

    No one wants a player thinking about any of his stats while on the field, whether it's a traditional stat like RBIs or a newer one like wOBA.  That was not the point of the article. 

    I love the saberstats, but as a fan watching the game, the last thing I am thinking when I see Iggy make a great play is that his UZR must be off the charts.  I am simply thinking what an awesome play that was and am enjoying the beauty of it.

    That said, the sabergeeks have shown how so much of the conventional thinking in baseball is wrong.  Most FOs have gotten on board with this, at least to some extent.  IMO, most managers have not.  Kapler's mention of the bunt analysis is a perfect example.

    While I think it is important for the players to have a deeper understanding of the numbers, I think it is far more important for GMs and managers to have a deeper understanding of the numbers.  It wouldn't hurt if the players' agents understood them as well.

     




    I loved this article.

     

    now that's easy to believe


    the last thing I am thinking when I see Iggy make a great play is that his UZR must be off the charts.  I am simply thinking what an awesome play that was and am enjoying the beauty of it.

     

    not so easy to believe ;-)

    but your word is golden

     

     

    btw speaking of Iggy and his UZR

    do the fancy stats show that hot dog iggy cost the sox a run

    in the 1st game when gardner stole 2nd

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

     

    I loved this article.

    No one wants a player thinking about any of his stats while on the field, whether it's a traditional stat like RBIs or a newer one like wOBA.  That was not the point of the article. 

    I love the saberstats, but as a fan watching the game, the last thing I am thinking when I see Iggy make a great play is that his UZR must be off the charts.  I am simply thinking what an awesome play that was and am enjoying the beauty of it.

    That said, the sabergeeks have shown how so much of the conventional thinking in baseball is wrong.  Most FOs have gotten on board with this, at least to some extent.  IMO, most managers have not.  Kapler's mention of the bunt analysis is a perfect example.

    While I think it is important for the players to have a deeper understanding of the numbers, I think it is far more important for GMs and managers to have a deeper understanding of the numbers.  It wouldn't hurt if the players' agents understood them as well.

     

     




     

    I loved this article.

     

    now that's easy to believe


    the last thing I am thinking when I see Iggy make a great play is that his UZR must be off the charts.  I am simply thinking what an awesome play that was and am enjoying the beauty of it.

     

    not so easy to believe ;-)

    but your word is golden

     

     

    btw speaking of Iggy and his UZR

    do the fancy stats show that hot dog iggy cost the sox a run

    in the 1st game when gardner stole 2nd

     



          Hi Zac,

               iggy is every bit the hot dog you suggest.

               The good news is he can.

              

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    In response to tom-uk's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    I'd rather see a player in tue to winning, and getting exceited over a bloop hit as opposed to a line drive out to shortstop.

    Kapler is not saying that, the hit is what the player wants.

     

    Leave the sabermetrics to the non-players (like me) and play ball...

     

    I'm not sure you get the point Notin.  The players would help the team win more if they had a higher OBP rather than BA.  The saber stats are important because they help the team win.   Look at the Cameron example of Votto 44 RBI and Phillips 79 RBI, and Phillips is complaining about who gets the big contract.

    I'm not sure the posters above have read Kapler's article.  It hurts the team if a pitcher is pressing because he has not won four straight, even if he pitched well then maybe he needs to be educated.  The same with Pedroia a few years back his homers were down and Francona said he was pressing because of it.   Pedroia should know that if his OBP is great and he is leading the league in doubles, he should not be pressing.  Focussing on the HR number on the scoreboard makes no sense.

     




     

    No I get the point.

     

    But OBP is pretty much old news, sabermetrically.  The value of the walk and working the count was demonstrated as far back as 1996, when Wade Boggs taught the Yankee lineup how to do it.   OBP has turned into one of those “back of the baseball card” stats.  It quickly progressed from “underrated” to mainstream.  The best way to look at it is “percentage of time the hitter does not make an out.”

     

    However, there are other metrics discussed and hinted at in the article that go beyond OBP that I prefer a hitter not worry about.  Line Drive rate, for example.  Yes, I want a hitter who hits line drives.  They result in hits a ridiculously high percentage of the time.  But I don’t want to watch a hitter who feels that he has done his job by lining out to shortstop.  I do like to see a hitter satisfied with the occasional Texas League RBI single, even though it might negatively affect his IFFB%.

     

    I just want who play hard and try to win.  I realize the players will always focus on stats, as that is where they think their paychecks come from.  I also do not think I will ever like that aspect of the game.  Just be the player you are, and leave defining it to others, a job I will gladly take…

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Kapler article on players not understanding the new Saber-world.

    notin "gets it".

    Players do often focus on "areas of need". This is not new to baseball. In the old days, it was simple things like defense, power or BA. What is new today are all the other areas players are concerned about. It has become more micro.

    Sox4ever

     
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