Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

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    Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    Ken Rosenthal/Fox Sports:

    NEW YORK

    Before the game, Robinson Cano asked me if I thought Tim Wakefield was a Hall of Famer.

     

    I got busy on my iPhone, summoned Wake’s career stats on baseball-reference.com and said probably not.

    One-hundred ninety-five wins are impressive, I told Cano, but Wake’s career ERA of 4.38? Too high.

    “Yeah, but he’s a knuckleballer,” Cano said, surprised that I did not view Wake as a more serious candidate. Cano then offered his own ringing endorsement.

    “Tell Wakefield he’s got my vote,” he said, smiling.

    Going strictly by the numbers, Wake certainly did not enhance his case for Cooperstown on Wednesday night, allowing the Yankees five runs in 5-1/3 innings.

    But guess who outpitched A.J. Burnett to earn career win No. 196, an 11-6 triumph that lifted the Red Sox into sole possession of first place in the AL East?

    The old man of whom I wrote these misguided words in spring training:

    “Wakefield is clogging the staff. At some point, the Red Sox almost certainly will need to make better use of his roster spot.”

    I swung and missed so badly on that one, I might as well have been flailing at a Wakefield knuckler.

    Wake, after winning only four of 19 starts last season, is 3-1 with a 4.84 ERA in six starts. His 196 wins are the most of any active pitcher. His 182 wins with the Sox are 10 shy of the club record shared by, ahem, Roger Clemens and Cy Young.

    And there’s more.

     

    Wakefield, who turns 45 on Aug. 2, combined Wednesday night with catcher Jason Varitek, 39, to form the oldest starting battery in Red Sox history — and the oldest in the majors since Jamie Moyer and Pat Borders did it for the Mariners in 2005.

    Varitek normally does not catch Wakefield, but he was pressed into duty after Jarrod Saltalamacchia became ill earlier in the day. Afterward, Varitek spoke with admiration about the movement of Wakefield’s knuckler, particularly the “double-breaker” that “kind of goes left and right.”

    How long does Varitek think Wakefield can pitch?

    “As long as he wants to. As long as his body holds up,” Varitek said. “What he does, he has such a unique ability to consistently be able to do it, it puts him in an elite status.”

    To think, some with the Sox actually fretted over Wakefield in spring training. Their rotation was five deep, and Wake was slated to be a long reliever, a role he does not relish and that does not especially suit him.

     

     As Yankees star Derek Jeter approches the 3,000 hit milestone, take a look back at the top 5 plays of his career.

     

    I remember one Sox official telling me he worried about Wake, with his history of back trouble, trying to cover first base. So naturally, there was Wake on Wednesday night, sprinting to first, beating the speedy Brett Gardner to the bag and catching a throw from Adrian Gonzalez for the final out of the fourth inning.

    As Gardner slid head-first, Wakefield stumbled over him, kicking him in the head, tumbling to the ground. Second baseman Dustin Pedroia helped Wake to his feet. Varitek put his arm around the pitcher.

    “We almost had to get a wheelbarrow to get him off,” Red Sox manager Terry Francona said, joking.

    Wakefield, who occasionally spars with Francona over his role, did not seem amused.

    “That’s him being him,” Wake said of his manager.

    Actually, Francona was highly complimentary of Wakefield, lauding the 20-year veteran’s professionalism for always covering first, always backing up home plate.

    “It’s hard not to root for him,” Francona said later, in a private moment.

     

     Records are made to be broken. Which ones could fall in 2011?

     

    The Red Sox are 5-4 in games started by Wakefield and fellow righty Alfredo Aceves, who touched 95 mph against his former team on Wednesday night and pitched the final 3-2/3 innings for his first save.

    Rotation depth is an issue for nearly every team, including the Red Sox. But the Sox look downright loaded compared to the Yankees, who have gotten poor starts from Burnett and Freddy Garcia in this series.

    There is no guarantee that Wakefield will remain a healthy, viable starter all season, but know this: Wake is an immensely proud competitor, fiercely aware of his ranks in Red Sox history and among active pitchers.

    When a reporter asked Wakefield if he was aware that he led all actives in victories — Roy Halladay is next with 177 wins — Wake joked, “That’s old news. Have you heard of the Lindbergh baby?”

    Wakefield, it seems, was born not long after the Lindbergh baby, but enough with the old-man jokes.

    I waited for Wakefield as the traffic around his locker cleared, wanting to tell him what Cano had said. Cano, one of the game’s best hitters, would vote for Wakefield for the Hall of Fame.

    “That’s pretty cool to hear that from another player,” Wakefield said. “It’s a pretty cool compliment.”

    He sounded genuinely touched.

    “I appreciate that,” Wakefield said, nodding. “It means a lot.”

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    Rosenthal said what 90 percent of this room has said about him...they gave up on him. The Sox officials are really Tito Francona. He's the No. 1 reason why Wakefield has been perceived as this "fragile" old guy. He makes jokes about him, but the underlying things he says is that he refuses to trust him UNLESS he absolutely has little choice. Dice-K hurt, Clay needing more rest, Lackey coming back from being hurt, so it's Wake's turn. I trust Tim Wakefield, I trust he could throw 7 innings every 5 days and if he was given the chance, he would.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    He's no Hall-of Famer.

    He deserves respect for being the best knuckleball pitcher of his era.

    He is versatile. He costs very little. But he is surely on his way out,much like Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera.

    When he is good, he is a huge asset, when he is bad he looks REAL BAD.

    They do need to look at an alternative, though. Catchers that can catch a knuckleball (or want to ) are very rare. It is really getting silly looking for a personal catcher for a guy who is either a long reliever or a 6th starter. This always creates a problem.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    zilla, Varitek did just fine with Wake yesterday. The idea of a personal catcher for him was concocted years ago by the Sox brass. It was done more to give Tek a rest every 5th day as a reg. 125-130 game a year catcher. Wakes has never needed a personal catcher. Are there catchers who couldn't catch him? Sure, but any good catcher in baseball would have no problem catching Wakefield from time to time. It's a challenge, but with the right mitt, you do it.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

     As he often does Tito tried to squeeze another inning out of Wake, even though he had started to struggle. What he got was a hit batter on an 0-2 count followed by a base on balls to the next batter. Happily he hooked him before any more damage was done and to me Aceves was one of the big heroes of the night.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    In Response to Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?:
    [QUOTE] As he often does Tito tried to squeeze another inning out of Wake, even though he had started to struggle. What he got was a hit batter on an 0-2 count followed by a base on balls to the next batter. Happily he hooked him before any more damage was done and to me Aceves was one of the big heroes of the night.
    Posted by trouts[/QUOTE]

    This is the reason the forum is nuts.  You are saying Tito went too long with Wake because Aceves pitched well.  If Tito had lifted Wake and let Aceves start that inning and HE struggled, the board would be full of those who would whine that Wake should have been left in.  The point is, the pitching coach and the manager have a plan and they probably told Wake that any trouble would mean the hook in the 6th.  Aceves knew the plan and was ready.  That said, Aceves probably went longer than they expected and saved the pen for tonight.  It was the handled the right way.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

      YES,  I DID..... HOWEVER, I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO SAY, THAT FROM GAME TO GAME, INNING TO INNING, PITCH TO PITCH, WE NEVER KNOW WHAT WE ARE GOING TO GET.......  6 SHUTOUT INNINGS OR 6 RUNS IN AN INNING !!!   BUT I WILL ENJOY HIS LATEST PLAY AS HE HAS HELPED THEO & TITO AND THE SOX IN A BIG WAY !!!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    In Response to Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?:
    [QUOTE]  YES,  I DID..... HOWEVER, I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO SAY, THAT FROM GAME TO GAME, INNING TO INNING, PITCH TO PITCH, WE NEVER KNOW WHAT WE ARE GOING TO GET.......  6 SHUTOUT INNINGS OR 6 RUNS IN AN INNING !!!   BUT I WILL ENJOY HIS LATEST PLAY AS HE HAS HELPED THEO & TITO AND THE SOX IN A BIG WAY !!!
    Posted by Bill-806[/QUOTE]

    haha.  thats the beauty of it bill.  baseball is a crazy game.  and an ancient knuckleballer who is dr. flutter & mr. battingpractice is just a crazy element there-of.  Gotta love the story line.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    In Response to Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?:
    [QUOTE] As he often does Tito tried to squeeze another inning out of Wake, even though he had started to struggle. What he got was a hit batter on an 0-2 count followed by a base on balls to the next batter. Happily he hooked him before any more damage was done and to me Aceves was one of the big heroes of the night.
    Posted by trouts[/QUOTE]

    Did u see the game? Struggled? Give me a break. The guy gave up 5 hits, only two of which were legit
    The dribbler by Swisher; the missed catch by Drew; the fly ball double over Ells head; All of those should have been outs.
    The hit batsmen was unfortunate and the walk afterward he got squeezed on IMO.
    He should have taken the mound in the 6th leading 7-2, but the defense let him down.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    I insist Tito pulled him out of panic, which is his M.O. with Tim this season. Short leash, no matter what. Other guys? Long leash, and let's them get out of jams. Wakefield's history is he gets out of jams with 2 on or 3 on. He's done it well many, many, many times as a Sox. Tito doesn't trust him. Why I have no idea.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    In Response to Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?:
    [QUOTE]Rosenthal said what 90 percent of this room has said about him...they gave up on him. The Sox officials are really Tito Francona. He's the No. 1 reason why Wakefield has been perceived as this "fragile" old guy. He makes jokes about him, but the underlying things he says is that he refuses to trust him UNLESS he absolutely has little choice. Dice-K hurt, Clay needing more rest, Lackey coming back from being hurt, so it's Wake's turn. I trust Tim Wakefield, I trust he could throw 7 innings every 5 days and if he was given the chance, he would.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]If your were half right about Tito's feelings towards Wakefield, Aceves would be the starter. There is a reasonable case for that you know.

    And BTW wake probably could have thrown 7 innings last night but the Rs may not have had the lead. He was losing the strike zone at that point and it was not an early but rather a well timed hook.

    You read too much into Tito's comments a few days back. No manager in Wake's career has ever shown him more confidence or defferance than Terry Francona.

    In sincerely believe you are on the wrong horse on this one. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    Was Cano even hit? the pitch barely touched his jersey. And I'm telling you there was a cutaway (a terrible one by ESPN) as Francona went to lift Wakefield. Varitek says something, and usually Tito is cool as a cucumber, but he got agitated by Tek used his hand and shot back a comment to him. My thinking was Tek felt that Wakefield was going fine, and that it was too early to pull him. Tito's thinking was the house was going to cave in if he didn't bring in Aceves right there an then. I'm not going to go over again what I think, or the end result--a great relief outing by Aceves, but Tito should manage his other starters the way he manages Tim. He shouldn't leave Lackey in to give up 9 runs in the 5th or allow relievers like Matt Albers to "take a bullet" for the team because Tito refuses to have a guy up in the pen v. the Cubs. He is not consistent in how he uses his pitchers. Someone said he likes the Tim/Aceves angle of throwing them together..I say, why not save Aceves for those starts that do really turn into implosions...the Buchholz, Lester, Lackey starts that also go from good to terrible in 0.9 seconds.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    Wake comes through, as usual. Those that misjudge him just don't appreciate the rare beauty of the knuckleball. And Tim covers first base better than Beckett, too.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    Jimy showed him amazing confidence in using him as a closer. Tito "had" shown more respect for Wakefield from 2003-2009, not since. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    Grady and Theo showed respect in 03
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    Actually, Grady and Kennedy had tremendous respect for Wakefield 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from betterredthandead. Show betterredthandead's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    He's been pampered with a booster chair, going a week or more of squatting. His ERA is close to 5, this year, and over 5 since the last half of 2009. His career ERA is over 4 and a quarter.

    This is a stilted and poorly written commentary that is what beat writers do on slow news days.

    Wakefield has a game log, which includes a lot of long booster chair time out where he is not available because Tito knows he'll break down. He's close to breaking down now, which is why they keep pampering him like the old guy he is.

    I'm one of the only writers who does not write for ratings and money. The reality is that Wakefield should not have been on the active roster with Aceves in AAA, even if it meant Wakefield refused a AAA asignment or DL stint. It hurt the team early in the season, as Aceves is truly a young talented and flexible pitcher who can excel in either a pen role or a starter role. Wakefield can not function in a pen role (mop-up isn't a valid role), and he's physically not fit to take the ball every 5 days in a starters role. The shuttle time should be invested in younger arms from the farm, either with Aceves relieving or starting and farm hands in the long pen/spot start role (doubrant, Miller).

    It's amazing what one game on national TV does to beat reporters. The Red Sox offense and defense (Pedroia) Aceves won this game, but Wakefield gets the win and it's as half these writers are unable to pay attention to how pitiful Wakefield looks out there, about to collapse.

    Wakefield's line

    5.1 IP  5 Earned Runs 2 Hit Batters 3 Walks, 1 HR and 1 Passed Ball that was half wild pitch and one belly flop that lead Tito to say he thought he was going to need a wheelbarrow to get Wakefield off the field

    It was ugly, it's just that AJ and the Yankee pitching was uglier. Aceves was the pitcher of last night who was the difference maker, and I'm quite sure Yankee pundits would agree with that, as painful as that might be.

    It is also noted that Wakefield had been resting for 7 days before this 5.1 inning 5 run "gem".

    No man is "ageless", but Wakefield is popular and is near a team longevity record which has obviously impaired the judgment of an upper management team that seems to be oblivous to the fact that Wakefield has had a 5 plus ERA since the last half of 2009, cannot take the ball every 5 days for a half dozen starts in a row, and cannot function in a useful pen role because he's useless with baserunners on. He's been a mop bucket pen arm and a week tired days starter that most certainly compromising that roster spot. 

    All of this so:

    1. Management can keep a record breaking headline possibility on the radar
    2. Management can appease a fan base on the popularity issue
    3. Most fans can have some old guy they like, to relate to

    To even suggest that the young talent on the farm couldn't equal or exceed (while gaining valuable experience) a role where they mop-up, get a week off between starts, and put up an ERA near 5, it's utterly absurd!

    Wakefield on an active roster spot, before Lackey and DiceK were DL'd, and after Lackey returned, is utterly ridiculous. Given his age and condition, instead of saying he would consider pitching for the Rays rather than retire next year, Wakefield should agree to DL or take a AAA assigment whenever the Red Sox say so. He could then be called up for spot duty when both Lackey and DiceK and Doubrant were all on the DL. If he refuses, he should be DFA.  

    My hope is that Wakefield is with the Rays, next season, or any place other than the Red Sox. He should have been gone at the end of 2009. 

    We went throught this with Lowell, and I was the only writer who correctly said that Lowell was washed up and had no business taking an active roster spot. Lowell was forgiven because of his frustration, at the very time he carped about his role and didn't get his release, and he'll always be one of my favorite Red Sox players. But what's in the best interest of the Red Sox was not to squat him on the active roster to get to a retirement day, and Theo allowed emotion to interfere with judgment. He's doing the same thing with Wakefield. Despite special time off considerations, Wakefield has not been good. Marginal, at least, you say? Give the time off he gets in a starter role, no, not marignal. 

    This team has a massive budget and has not been performing to capability. There are 2 weaknesses that can easily be addressed to improve an already strong contender:

    1. Get a solid defensive catcher on the active roster (throws strongly and accurately, catches the ball well, is agile and has quick reflexes behind the plate, and is a student of the game)

    2. Acquire an all around skills solid young RH OF'er 

    3. Get a solid defensive middle infielder on the active roster    

    When the team is winning is the time to be critical and evaluate and address the weaknesses which are quite obvious and easily addressed.

    PS: Rosenthal is clueless and a ratings driven writer who has no credibility
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    In Response to Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?:
    [QUOTE]Jimy showed him amazing confidence in using him as a closer. Tito "had" shown more respect for Wakefield from 2003-2009, not since. 
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]You mean the same manager who left him off of the 1999 post season roster? Prompting Tim to say all he could say, "I just work here." Grady was here for only one year, so as I said, nobody showed more confidence and respect to Wakefield than Tito has for as long.

    The idea that Wakefield should have kept starting in the face of his 2010 stats and the RS roster is that of a fan who is thinking about the name on the back of the jersey rather than the one on the front. He had a 5.71 ERA as a starting pitcher last year. Sorry that doesn't get you a place at the table in front of even Dice K or Lackey or Beckett last year, let alone Lester or Buch having the seasons they were.

    As for pulling him he had given up 4 runs in 5 IP and had allowed two men to reach. When he was pulled he was at 91 pitches so while there might have been something left in the tank, it wasn't a premature hook. Aceves 3.2 IP with only one ER sort of makes hindsight confirm that it was a good move.

    Your takes do make an interesting counter weight to the serial hatred though!


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    OK, who had 2:44 p.m. as when Softy would launch a 1,000-word manifesto on this subject?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    Jimy was a nut. I used Jimy as an example of entrusting him to close games. The '99 incident was one that Jimy handled poorly. He did personally cost Wakefield a lot of wins by shuffling him into a relief role. Tito's respect has diminished with time for Tim. He has privately hated to deal with him because he couldn't judge him or judge if he could go longer or not in games. The directive was made in the offseason prior to 2010 that Wakefield would now pitch on the Sox terms, not the other way around. It started with not renewing his 1-year contract, but offering a different type deal. It was made official Wakefield would not be a factor when they signed Lackey. They turned him into an insurance policy. And that's why he is here. But Tim is proving that he can throw regularly in the rotation, something that Tim has been trying to show the team since the ST of 2010. All is good because Wakefield is sticking it to his critics and to all those fans here who felt he was done because the organization created a situation that was not favorable for Tim--shuffling in and out of the rotation, relief jobs, mopup jobs--i.e. Jimy's treatment of him from 1999-2002...It's a cycle. Tim is surviving despite the lack of trust or lack of confidence from his manager. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    In Response to Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?:
    [QUOTE]OK, who had 2:44 p.m. as when Softy would launch a 1,000-word manifesto on this subject?
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]

    Full disclosure Lloyd.  The thread was started at 1:20.  I had Softy's 1000-word manifesto at 1:45-2:00.  I missed this one.  
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

     To Alibiike: You ask me sarcastically "Did u see the game?" Yes I did and if you had watched closely, you would have noticed that the score going into the 6th inning was 7-4 not 7-2 as you stated. Maybe you should pay more attention!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

     To Jim Davis: I know that you are a die-hard Sox fan, and Wakefield had pitched well through 3 innings, but he got touched up for a run in the 4th and 3 in the 5th. All too often in the past this has just been a prelude to total collapse. You would have stuck with him, I would have hooked him. Those are just 2 different opinions and I am super glad that Tito didn't stay with him any longer that he did.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaffyDan. Show DaffyDan's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    All I got to add is, I am glad we have both Wake and Aceves. 

    -Daf. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from betterredthandead. Show betterredthandead's posts

    Re: Ken Rosenthal: Wakefield defies odds, age and, yes, even me-How about you-Did you also misjudge Wakefield?

    Call up Miller, DL or DFA Tim Wastefield, with Doubrant as additional depth. Atchison is also available for retread/mop-up duty.
     
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