Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    Career numbers are career numbers, it's over a course of an entire season when career numbers apply, not certain splits. When this season is over, he will not have reached any of his norms, and badly low in SBs as well, not to mention what I think has been a complete regression defensively. This is a guy who normally made the highlight reel 2 to 3 times a week with Tampa. I can't remember him having a sensational catch for Boston, and even if that is cherry-picking on my part, it's clear he has sucked playing the Monster. Something that was in plain view for years for Theo when he was on Tampa at Boston.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    With all that said, he's forgiven if he can stay on this hot streak into Sept, and makes a difference in the playoffs. He has been pretty much an afterthought in the Sox offense this year, not even the top 6 hitters on the team. That's pretty sad to start a 7-year run for 142 mil
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    Look what Crawford has hit since his transitional phase of April.
    Now ask yourself this: Has he hurt the team or helped them?

    I say he hurt them in April.
    The team is in first as of August 25th. So, the slow start really didn't hurt the team overall. Which means Crawford has helped them since April, when he's been healthy.

    Hard not to separate April from the rest of the season.
    AGONE hit one dinger in April...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    Look what Crawford has hit since his transitional phase of April.
    Now ask yourself this: Has he hurt the team or helped them?

    He has hurt us. No question.

    He hasn't fielded well, run well, or hit well.
    He's got a .740 OPS since coming back in July.
    His early clutch hits were a mirage. He has a .574 OPS Late & Close.
    He's got a 1.075 OPS when there is a 4 run or more differential.

    It's like saying Lugo helped us win the ring. Don't go down that road.
     
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    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    Well, if he's hurt the club, they've withstood the blow well since April ended.
    If they benched him since May began, who would have out-performed him? CAM? MAC? Nava?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    Well, if he's hurt the club, they've withstood the blow well since April ended.

    That's softy's argument in a nutshell with Lugo.

    If they benched him since May began, who would have out-performed him? CAM? MAC? Nava?

    I didn' say he wasn't better than the options we had at hand, I just said he hurt (as opposed to helped).

    I am pretty sure DMac would have done better vs most LHPs.
    I am pretty sure Theo could have used the $20M to help in other areas more than CC has "helped" in LF.

    As softy might say, "CC has been holding down all our top young prospects".
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    Zillagod, 

    The problem we have here is that we have a toxic troll/loser combination when it comes to Crawford and Lackey for two reasons: 

    1. They are both clearly overpaid based on what would be a team friendly contract for their services. No matter how well they play, the trolls will always drop their contracts. By the small minded troll definition, there is no distinction between overpaid and total bust. 

    2. These folks bashing Lackey and Crawford and calling them demeaning names are often more interested in being proven right in their early verdicts than enjoying guys break out of slumps. 

    In my view, the two will probably always be overpaid unless they turn in some postseason heroics on the way to a ring. But: the fact is that the Sox can afford to overpay some people in this baseball economy. Whether or not the two of these guys are busts remains to be seen, we're going to need more than one year to assess it unless we see something amazing in the postseason. 

    However for the short triggers on this forum they won't wait to condemn now and perhaps look foolish later.
     
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    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]Well, if he's hurt the club, they've withstood the blow well since April ended. That's softy's argument in a nutshell with Lugo. If they benched him since May began, who would have out-performed him? CAM? MAC? Nava? I didn' say he wasn't better than the options we had at hand, I just said he hurt (as opposed to helped). Iam pretty sure DMac would have done better vs most LHPs. I am pretty sure Theo could have used the $20M to help in other areas more than CC has "helped" in LF. As softy might say, "CC has been holding down all our top young prospects".
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I agree. But the majority of pitchers are RH'ed. Saying the team could have spent the money more wisely after 5 months of a 7-year deal is cutting it short.
    If 13 mil went to Dunn, and the rest to Soriano, that's not wise.

    CC's has hit .287 since May 1st, with 8 dingers, 40 RBI's, and 45 Runs scored
    over 300 at bats (n/i tonight). I can't see how you could say he has hurt the team since 5-1-11.

    Drew didn't out-perform him. Nor did CAM.
    And I doubt any farm hand would have.
    His first year here, like Drew's, has been transitional. More was expected. But I think it's a stretch to say he hurt the team.


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    I agree. But the majority of pitchers are RH'ed. Saying the team could have spent the money more wisely after 5 months of a 7-year deal is cutting it short.
    If 13 mil went to Dunn, and the rest to Soriano, that's not wise.

    Everyone knows I wanted Dunn for about 3 years, but I never said he was wroth that cash. I also thought he could play some 1B and DH as well as LF. Once we got AGon and kept Papi, his value here went down. That being said, I'd rather have the shorter Dunn deal than CC's.

    I had mentioned Ordonez for a one year deal. He has stunk also, but at least it was half the yealy money and 1/7th the term.

    I never was for Soriano.

    I was for Holliday a while back, but thats no good now. Berkman was the 2011  steal.

    CC's has hit .287 since May 1st, with 8 dingers, 40 RBI's, and 45 Runs scored
    over 300 at bats (n/i tonight). I can't see how you could say he has hurt the team since 5-1-11.

    Runs & RBI's are way down on my list, and BA is near the middle. His OBP, Slg%, and fielding have been hurtful.

    Drew didn't out-perform him. Nor did CAM.
    And I doubt any farm hand would have.

    Just because he hurt less than others would have, doesn't mean he didn't hurt.

    His first year here, like Drew's, has been transitional. More was expected. But I think it's a stretch to say he hurt the team.

    We're not talking transition to the future. We are talking this year: he has hurt way more than helped.

    As for the future. We'll revisit this when we can't afford to re-sign some of our stars and we miss out on some good FAs and deals due to budget demands over the next 6 years.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]I agree. But the majority of pitchers are RH'ed. Saying the team could have spent the money more wisely after 5 months of a 7-year deal is cutting it short. If 13 mil went to Dunn, and the rest to Soriano, that's not wise. Everyone knows I wanted Dunn for about 3 years, but I never said he was wroth that cash. I also thought he could play some 1B and DH as well as LF. Once we got AGon and kept Papi, his value here went down. That being said, I'd rather have the shorter Dunn deal than CC's. I had mentioned Ordonez for a one year deal. He has stunk also, but at least it was half the yealy money and 1/7th the term. I never was for Soriano. I was for Holliday a while back, but thats no good now. Berkman was the 2011  steal. CC's has hit .287 since May 1st, with 8 dingers, 40 RBI's, and 45 Runs scored over 300 at bats (n/i tonight). I can't see how you could say he has hurt the team since 5-1-11. Runs & RBI's are way down on my list, and BA is near the middle. His OBP, Slg%, and fielding have been hurtful. Drew didn't out-perform him. Nor did CAM. And I doubt any farm hand would have. Just because he hurt less than others would have, doesn't mean he didn't hurt. His first year here, like Drew's, has been transitional. More was expected. But I think it's a stretch to say he hurt the team. We're not talking transition to the future. We are talking this year: he has hurt way more than helped. As for the future. We'll revisit this when we can't afford to re-sign some of our stars and we miss out on some good FAs and deals due to budget demands over the next 6 years.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]


    I didn't bring up Dunn or Soriano for that reason. They just came to mind as ones who have really hurt their teams. Money can be spent in several ways. My point is, the available alternatives don't always prove to be wiser choices.

    I just don't think he's been a detriment since the end of April.
    I've mentioned before that conventional modes of measurement will come up short when trying to measure CC's overall value.
    Talk all ya want about his anemic numbers vs. lefties, but the fact is, the majority of pitchers are RH. He wasn't signed to hit lefties.

    How many times have you stated that he's hitting over .300 with an OPS near .800 vs. righties since the end of April? I don't recall many. Nor do I think that those numbers can be considered hurtful.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from theYAZZER. Show theYAZZER's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise! : And cue the bash Tito music.  You same "coma" posters would be saying Tito SHOULD HAVE batted him down in the order because he was not hitting.  You feel the need to be right all the time.  Since he did move him down, you find a way to spin that as wrong.  You guys are unreal.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]


    i see you're back to embarrassing deniro and keitel.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from theYAZZER. Show theYAZZER's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]Cater wanted a guarantee that CC would have  a typical CC year here. He feels entitled. Sounds childish to me. Loyal fans aren't spoiled and feel entitled. It is obvious that CC is having a disappointed year but what makes Cater think that we are blind to that fact. Preaching to the choir is symtomatic of a unintelligent person or someone who is looking for attention.
    Posted by Your-Echo[/QUOTE]


    blah blah blah blah.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    I didn't bring up Dunn or Soriano for that reason. They just came to mind as ones who have really hurt their teams. Money can be spent in several ways. My point is, the available alternatives don't always prove to be wiser choices.

    I agree. 7 years is tough to swallow.

    I just don't think he's been a detriment since the end of April.
    I've mentioned before that conventional modes of measurement will come up short when trying to measure CC's overall value.

    His speed has helped some, but even that has not helped as much as expected, because he isn't even reaching base at his career OBP number which was low to begin with for a $20M dollar man.

    Talk all ya want about his anemic numbers vs. lefties, but the fact is, the majority of pitchers are RH. He wasn't signed to hit lefties.

    Actually, he was. They never had any intention of platooning him, so they did sign him to play everyday. The other factor is we have played more games vs lefties this year than I can remember (35%!).

    How many times have you stated that he's hitting over .300 with an OPS near .800 vs. righties since the end of April?

    I don't mention it, because it also is a negative. He's not over .800 over the whole season (.763) , but I know your point is all about since then. He is was below where he usually is vs RHPs. He needs to be over .900 to compensate for his poor numbers vs LHPs. He is not.

    I don't recall many. Nor do I think that those numbers can be considered hurtful.

    Overall his numbers are easily hurtful. If he was platooned, he'd be an average Sox hitter vs RHPs. Then, I'd say he wasn't hurtful in a performance way, but still hurtful in a performance per budget way. His speed would take him slightly above average as an offensive threat, but he needs to get on base to use it.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]I didn't bring up Dunn or Soriano for that reason. They just came to mind as ones who have really hurt their teams. Money can be spent in several ways. My point is, the available alternatives don't always prove to be wiser choices. I agree. 7 years is tough to swallow. I just don't think he's been a detriment since the end of April. I've mentioned before that conventional modes of measurement will come up short when trying to measure CC's overall value. His speed has helped some, but even that has not helped as much as expected, because he isn't even reaching base at his career OBP number which was low to begin with for a $20M dollar man. Talk all ya want about his anemic numbers vs. lefties, but the fact is, the majority of pitchers are RH . He wasn't signed to hit lefties. Actually, he was. They never had any intention of platooning him, so they did sign him to play everyday. The other factor is we have played more games vs lefties this year than I can remember (35%!). How many times have you stated that he's hitting over .300 with an OPS near .800 vs. righties since the end of April? I don't mention it, because it also is a negative. He's not over .800 over the whole season (.763) , but I know your point is all about since then. He is was below where he usually is vs RHPs. He needs to be over .900 to compensate for his poor numbers vs LHPs. He is not. I don't recall many. Nor do I think that those numbers can be considered hurtful . Overall his numbers are easily hurtful. If he was platooned, he'd be an average Sox hitter vs RHPs. Then, I'd say he wasn't hurtful in a performance way, but still hurtful in a performance per budget way. His speed would take him slightly above average as an offensive threat, but he needs to get on base to use it.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I don't see a rise out of Lackey and don't expect him to get much better.  If John can at least pitch the way he is now and continue to get good offensive support we should win more often than not.  John is still the same pitcher we have seen since coming to Boston where he will have a couple of innings of brilliance followed by a stretch of hard hit balls and BB.  He still slips in and out on a regular basis. 

    With Crawford I do believe he is beginning to come out of his funk and hopefully continues to help out through the PS.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    Crawford is fine.

    Lackey's "improvement" in August was due to 3 starts against the worst teams in the AL. 

    My only hope is that Lackey doesn't get to see the mound in the post season.  I'd much rather see Miller taking the mound than Lackey.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise! : i see you're back to embarrassing deniro and keitel.
    Posted by theYAZZER[/QUOTE]

    blah blah blah
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    I don't see a rise out of Lackey and don't expect him to get much better.  If John can at least pitch the way he is now and continue to get good offensive support we should win more often than not.  John is still the same pitcher we have seen since coming to Boston where he will have a couple of innings of brilliance followed by a stretch of hard hit balls and BB.  He still slips in and out on a regular basis. 

    With Crawford I do believe he is beginning to come out of his funk and hopefully continues to help out through the PS.

    1) You're arguing with the wrong guy. I'm not a lackey bandwagon jumper. The most I have done is defend his 2010 season in terms of quality start percentage. I argued for 17 pages with harness over Lackey. You beef should be with him, not me.

    2) Crawford is coming out of his funk, yes. The problem is, his funk was so low, "coming out of it" is still not enough. He still can't hit lefties. (I don't blame him for being forced to play in those games.) His fielding is polar opposite of what I saw in TB. His speed in minimized by a super low OBP.

    (Sidenote: I am not a Monday morning QB here. I was against the signing from before day one. I do not think Crawford is this bad. I think he will return to career norms for a few years. He will help this team, eventually. He just hasn't helped as much as he has hurt so far.)
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]I don't see a rise out of Lackey and don't expect him to get much better.  If John can at least pitch the way he is now and continue to get good offensive support we should win more often than not.  John is still the same pitcher we have seen since coming to Boston where he will have a couple of innings of brilliance followed by a stretch of hard hit balls and BB.  He still slips in and out on a regular basis.  With Crawford I do believe he is beginning to come out of his funk and hopefully continues to help out through the PS. 1) You're arguing with the wrong guy. I'm not a lackey bandwagon jumper. The most I have done is defend his 2010 season in terms of quality start percentage. I argued for 17 pages with harness over Lackey. You beef should be with him, not me. 2) Crawford is coming out of his funk, yes. The problem is, his funk was so low, "coming out of it" is still not enough. He still can't hit lefties. (I don't blame him for being forced to play in those games.) His fielding is polar opposite of what I saw in TB. His speed in minimized by a super low OBP. (Sidenote: I am not a Monday morning QB here. I was against the signing from before day one. I do not think Crawford is this bad. I think he will return to career norms for a few years. He will help this team, eventually. He just hasn't helped as much as he has hurt so far.)
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I echo moon's post. I am not soft on baseball's laws. I eventually harness my emotions in regard to my feelings. I like burritos, but not if they have an odor that smells like katz, take five on that subject. i don't recall the jimdavis laws or jim crow for that matter. I'm not crazed nor do I REBEL from insightful Sox chat. Sometimes i need my space, man. I don't need an alibi, ike, just fenway, jack. If only i had a dollar Bill, or 806 of them. I miss yaz, sir. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    What people seem to forget about Lackey is he pitched in the"pitcher friendly" AL West. Alot of games in ballparks that favor pitchers, Anaheim,Seattle,Oakland. Now he has to pitch in more hitter's ballparks, Fenway, Yankee Stadium, Tampa Bay. Also many more games against the Yankees and Tanpa Bay lineups which stack up better offensively than the western teams ( exception: Texas).

    Also he was signed to be a 3rd or 4th starter( maybe even 5th), not the ace, behind Beckett, Lester, Buchholz and with any luck Matsuzaka( although that didn't work out well).

    The expectations seem to be that he would put up numbers fitting a top line ace of the staff. Sure they paid alot of money for him, sure they overpaid, but good pitching is rare....Lackey is a "good" pitcher....he is just not a "great" pitcher. Too many Sox fans think he was supposed to be a "great" pitcher.

    Frankly, I feel he is a good middle of the rotation pitcher, he hates to lose,he will not often shut the opposing team down, he will keep you in most games ( but he needs a little run support) but he is not an ace. He matches up pretty well against 3rd or 4th starters of most MLB teams, he does not matchup well against the #1 starters of many MLB teams (Sabbathia, King Felix, etc.).

    I was not expecting him to be any more than what he is. If he is himself, with this offense, he should win many games. Just don't expect him to contend for the Cy Young. He is what he is.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    zilla, Theo didn't sign him for 82 million to be an end of the rotation starter. No way. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]zilla, Theo didn't sign him for 82 million to be an end of the rotation starter. No way. 
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    True Danny.  I think Theo overestimated what Lackey could bring to the table.  but the 82 mil, I blame Brian Cashman and the Yankee org. for that.  they set the market the year before for a sometimes-good-sometimes-awful starting pitcher when they signed burnett.  Lackey never gets that much money on teh open market if the Yankees hadn't outbid God himself for the must-have services of AJ Burnett.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise! : True Danny.  I think Theo overestimated what Lackey could bring to the table.  but the 82 mil, I blame Brian Cashman and the Yankee org. for that.  they set the market the year before for a sometimes-good-sometimes-awful starting pitcher when they signed burnett.  Lackey never gets that much money on teh open market if the Yankees hadn't outbid God himself for the must-have services of AJ Burnett.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    Very good point spaceman, the Yankees started setting the bar many years ago and have raised it considerably since making it very difficult for certain teams to compete.  Fortunately they no longer hold a choke hold on baseball, many teams "like the Sox" can now compete.

    I would single out the Yankees and agents like Boras for setting todays standards.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise! : Possibly one of the most ignorant, poorly put together posts on this forum from a person that doesn't have SOFT in their name.
    Posted by RedSoxFan2OO4[/QUOTE]

    haha
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from scorieger. Show scorieger's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    Lackey's been fighting and competing, but has not been great.  CC is coming around, but still seems to be pressing at times.  The only thing that really matters now is the post season.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!

    In Response to Re: Lackey and Crawford on the rise!:
    [QUOTE]I didn't bring up Dunn or Soriano for that reason. They just came to mind as ones who have really hurt their teams. Money can be spent in several ways. My point is, the available alternatives don't always prove to be wiser choices. I agree. 7 years is tough to swallow. I just don't think he's been a detriment since the end of April. I've mentioned before that conventional modes of measurement will come up short when trying to measure CC's overall value. His speed has helped some, but even that has not helped as much as expected, because he isn't even reaching base at his career OBP number which was low to begin with for a $20M dollar man. Talk all ya want about his anemic numbers vs. lefties, but the fact is, the majority of pitchers are RH . He wasn't signed to hit lefties. Actually, he was. They never had any intention of platooning him, so they did sign him to play everyday. The other factor is we have played more games vs lefties this year than I can remember (35%!). How many times have you stated that he's hitting over .300 with an OPS near .800 vs. righties since the end of April? I don't mention it, because it also is a negative. He's not over .800 over the whole season (.763) , but I know your point is all about since then. He is was below where he usually is vs RHPs. He needs to be over .900 to compensate for his poor numbers vs LHPs. He is not. I don't recall many. Nor do I think that those numbers can be considered hurtful . Overall his numbers are easily hurtful. If he was platooned, he'd be an average Sox hitter vs RHPs. Then, I'd say he wasn't hurtful in a performance way, but still hurtful in a performance per budget way. His speed would take him slightly above average as an offensive threat, but he needs to get on base to use it.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]


    In time (could be a few years), like w/Drew, we'll likely see some aspect of a CC platoon. I don't disagree in that it's a prudent move. At the same time, we can't blame him for Tito's brain cramp. The FO knew what you did about his inability to hit southpaws. He was brought here for his overall game. How he's managed will reflect in his numbers, just as when a starter is pulled will affect his ERA...
     

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