Lackey's error--two thoughts

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Lackey's error--two thoughts

    First, an old complaint.  He made the error, shot himself in the foot.  So why are all four runs unearned?  The only purpose of the ERA is to protect pitchers from egregious mistakes by their defenses.  Moreover, in this case Lackey not only committed a terrible error, but then gave up a 2 run dinger for two more unearned runs because the earlier sac fly should have been the third out if Lackey had gotten just the runner going to second out. 

    Second, the error itself.  Infielders practice virtually every day in order to maintain their skills.  It is my understanding pitchers almost never take any form of infield practice despite in fact being another infielder.  I am not of course including ST because whatever is practiced in ST will atrophy if not repeated at least weekly if not every other day.   

     
  2. This post has been removed.

     
  3. This post has been removed.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    You know the answer and IMHO just trying to put something on Lackey.

    ANY error that should have been the last out means all runs there after are unearned. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:

    You know the answer and IMHO just trying to put something on Lackey.

    ANY error that should have been the last out means all runs there after are unearned. 




    It's actually a very good point and I mentioned it yesterday. In some ways, they should be earned because the pitcher earned it and it wasn't caused by a teammate's bad play.

     
  6. This post has been removed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

    Another extrapolation of the term "Earned Run" could be:

    Runs scored as the result of a pitcher's pitching and NOT his fielding or the fielding of any teammate.

    It is a pitching stat and bad defense ( no matter by whom) should not enter into the equation. Pitching stats and defense stats should not be blended together but should be independent of each other.




    Makes sense

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

    Earned Run:

    Any run for which the pitcher is held accountable (i.e., the run did not score as a result of a fielding error or a passed ball). Primarily used to calculate the earned run average. In determining earned runs, an error charged to a pitcher is treated exactly like an error charged to any other fielder.



    I know that, tv guy, but I disagree with it.  I also disagree with the notion that, when an error would have been the third our, the pitchers can give up a bunch of runs which will not be charged to his ERA even though he is letting the other team beat him like a drum and helping his team lose. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    You make two, long standing, great points. A pitcher who makes an error should mean the runs are earned as against the pitcher. Second, a pitcher should take a few minutes of basic infield practice on the day he is scheduled to pitch, at a slower paced high hop/few steps basis.



    No a error by a pitcher is not indicative of how he pitched, just like an error by the short stop.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    I agree mixing pitching stats and fielding stats is not good, but it grates that pitchers who don't field their positions are not held accountable.  I am fairly sure that ERA is the number one stat a team or agent looks at when talking contract. 

    Maybe the fact there is so little accountability explains why pitchers don't bother to take infield practice of any kind.  Why should they?  Their errors don't affect their ERA's.  This is of course an exaggeration because I think Lackey was devastated by that error last night.  He was pitching well and he really, really wanted to win.  I think the error upset him enough to cause him to lose focus--thus the long sac fly to put the Twins up by 1 followed by the two run dinger to right to put them up 5-2.  I also give Lackey credit for going back out and pitching the 7th. 

    But two facts remain.  1.  Pitchers don't take infield.  2. Pitchers tend to be lousy fielders, largely because they rarely practice.   

    I agree my point about ERA's is spurious, but it does grate. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    It is called an EARNED Run, not a "Pitcher Responsible Run."

     

    Just because it happened to be a pitcher making the fielding miscue does not mean the scoring team earned it...

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    I agree mixing pitching stats and fielding stats is not good, but it grates that pitchers who don't field their positions are not held accountable.  I am fairly sure that ERA is the number one stat a team or agent looks at when talking contract. 

    Maybe the fact there is so little accountability explains why pitchers don't bother to take infield practice of any kind.  Why should they?  Their errors don't affect their ERA's.  This is of course an exaggeration because I think Lackey was devastated by that error last night.  He was pitching well and he really, really wanted to win.  I think the error upset him enough to cause him to lose focus--thus the long sac fly to put the Twins up by 1 followed by the two run dinger to right to put them up 5-2.  I also give Lackey credit for going back out and pitching the 7th. 

    But two facts remain.  1.  Pitchers don't take infield.  2. Pitchers tend to be lousy fielders, largely because they rarely practice.   

    I agree my point about ERA's is spurious, but it does grate. 




    regarding contracts, I think the stats guys and advanced scouts look at game logs and everything to evealuate a pitcher, including watching him live. Im not sure that in the big picture with signing a guy, that is drastically going to affect it.

    I understand your arguement, but defense is defense and pitching is pitching.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    southpaw77.  Fine.  But talk about that other point--the fact that pitchers don't take infield and continue in general to be lousy fielders. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    southpaw77.  Fine.  But talk about that other point--the fact that pitchers don't take infield and continue in general to be lousy fielders. 




    Oh, I agree with that. Theres certainly not enough of that outside of ST. That goes with almost every pitcher. I hold my breath when a pitcher has to make a throw to a base.

    Maybe take some fielding on game days, even when not pitching? field some grounders and make throws to all bases as a quick drill maybe.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    I agree mixing pitching stats and fielding stats is not good, but it grates that pitchers who don't field their positions are not held accountable.  I am fairly sure that ERA is the number one stat a team or agent looks at when talking contract. 

    Maybe the fact there is so little accountability explains why pitchers don't bother to take infield practice of any kind.  Why should they?  Their errors don't affect their ERA's.  This is of course an exaggeration because I think Lackey was devastated by that error last night.  He was pitching well and he really, really wanted to win.  I think the error upset him enough to cause him to lose focus--thus the long sac fly to put the Twins up by 1 followed by the two run dinger to right to put them up 5-2.  I also give Lackey credit for going back out and pitching the 7th. 

    But two facts remain.  1.  Pitchers don't take infield.  2. Pitchers tend to be lousy fielders, largely because they rarely practice.   

    I agree my point about ERA's is spurious, but it does grate. 



    Actually, the pitchers, from what I understand, worked hard in spring training on fielding. Sometimes sht happens.

    As for being held accountable -- Lackey was. He got the loss.

    Stats shouldn't be made to be punishments (so to speak). ERA, like others have mentioned, is to help measure how a guy pitched. Runs scored because of errors distort this if they were earned, regardless of who made the error.

    Lackey pitched a good game overall, especially going seven innings, and if it weren't for his error (and Ross') missed tag, he might have gotten a W. The home run wasn't good but by that time he had made a lot of pitches in t he inning. Had he been out of the inning, he might have been fresher to make a better pitch to that batter the next inning. Had he not made the error and/or Ross made the tag, Lackey might have been able to go eight innings.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    Royf19.  OK on the ERA.

    Not OK on the error itself.   If ST is the key to good fielding, why do infielders take infield every darn day throughout the season even during the dog days of August?  Why do hitters take batting practice every darn day?  Why do AL pitchers start take batting practice when they know they are likely to pitch and possibly hit in a NL park? 

    It is not enough to know what needs to be done or even to have practiced it a lot in March.  All skills need reinforcement or they atrophy.  I happen to think the specific skill of fielding a grounder in front of the mound and then turning all the way around to throw someone out at second is pretty tricky.  The same goes for fielding a grounder between the mound and the third base line and then throwing to 1B--very tricky. 

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    I just checked the total chances by Sox pitchers to date--58.  Against 4 errors, that's a fielding percentage of .935, which is pretty lousy, but not as bad as I expected.  Ciriaco, on the other hand, takes a lot of infield, and he has had 22 chances with 5 errors and a fielding percentage of .770.  Maybe he should stop taking infield. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    Royf19.  OK on the ERA.

    Not OK on the error itself.   If ST is the key to good fielding, why do infielders take infield every darn day throughout the season even during the dog days of August?  Why do hitters take batting practice every darn day?  Why do AL pitchers start take batting practice when they know they are likely to pitch and possibly hit in a NL park? 

    It is not enough to know what needs to be done or even to have practiced it a lot in March.  All skills need reinforcement or they atrophy.  I happen to think the specific skill of fielding a grounder in front of the mound and then turning all the way around to throw someone out at second is pretty tricky.  The same goes for fielding a grounder between the mound and the third base line and then throwing to 1B--very tricky. 

     



    I understand but I'm not sure in the big picture that it's a major problem. Last year (or the year before) the Sox pitchers seemed to have major problems in the fielding department. But I don't see it as being a problem this year. Lackey made a bad throw. It happens, regardless of how much you practice.

    And -- when would you practice during the season. You certainly don't want your starter to take infield on the day he starts. And do you really want to waste time during infield before a game with pitchers who aren't playing taking grounders, taking time away from the every day fielders.

    The comparison to hitters and fielders practicing every day with pitcher's need to take fielding isn't valid. A pitcher needs to be able to field their position, but once the season starts, the priority with them is to focus on pitching.

     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

    Lackey made a throwing to second in his haste to start a DP. It happens. None of us really know what to blame it on. It might have been just a human error since none of us are perfect. The coaches would have better information on whether it was due to a lack of practice or conditioning. I've seen many pitchers on many teams over the years make an errant throw in that situation.



    IMO, that is the most likely error to make-trying to throw the ball to someone that is moving.

    And now that we've discussed this, does anyone know whather the premise is actually true?  That pitchers don't take fielding practice?

     
  21. This post has been removed.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    Back to the first thought.  Yes, yes, earned runs are based primarily on whether the team at bat earned those runs rather than was given them.  But let's not kid ourselves, a pitcher's ERA is one of his most prized or, in a bad year, despised possessions, and he definitely benefits when runs caused by errors are discounted.  That said, I agree it wouldn't make sense to call runs caused by pitcher's errors earned runs.

    On the second thought, I went back and rewatched Lackey's play about a dozen  times and do think he would benefit from some practice. 

    Here's why.  He has a pitching motion that causes his right foot to cross over his body and move it to the left (as he is looking at home plate) as he completes his delivery.  Very off balance, but Buchholz does the same thing, and so does Doubront except as a lefty his body moves to the right.  Lester and Dempster, a righty and a lefty, on the other hand, finish balanced and facing the plate because their pitching leg (left for Lester, right for Dempster) doesn't cross over at the end of the delivery.

    On this particular play, the Twins batter hit a perfect one hopper right back to Lackey, except that it wasn't perfect for him because, even though the ball was hit to the first base side, it was on Lackey's pitching hand side because of the way his right leg crosses over.

    This means he had to reach back to his right with his left glove hand to snag the ball, which he did.   That snag forced him  to turn more to his right (clockwise) in order to be able to throw to second base, which for righties is an unnatural motion.  Almost as bad, he was on the mound, not on level ground, which meant that he was now throwing slightly uphill.  And he was on the first base side of the mound, which tilted his body slightly to the right as he was throwing it.  Unsurprisingly, his throw went to the right. I would argue that a one hopper to his glove side would have resulted in a double play because, even though he would still have been on the mound, it would have been a more natural turn (counterclockwise for a righty) and throw.

    So again I say Lackey could benefit from practicing that particular motion as most pitchers probably could.  Plus the throw to second is usually a high payoff play because it almost always is the beginning of a possible double play.

    The problem, however, is how to practice.  Actually, where, when and how.  Let's assume the where and the when can be figured out, but the how is a problem.

    Every pitcher's motion is designed to produce a lot of full body torque while at the same time insuring the motion is repeatable.  That is so difficult that even the best starters can have bad games.   Adding on the additional movements to make a good throw to second, as useful as that might be, could compromise the pitching motion.  Better, I think, to hope the pitcher can set himself and made a good throw without practicing.  Or maybe let him practice the turn (clockwise) and throw off the bullpen mound without the pitch beforehand. 

     

      

     
  23. This post has been removed.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Lackey's error--two thoughts

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

    Another extrapolation of the term "Earned Run" could be:

    Runs scored as the result of a pitcher's pitching and NOT his fielding or the fielding of any teammate.

    It is a pitching stat and bad defense ( no matter by whom) should not enter into the equation. Pitching stats and defense stats should not be blended together but should be independent of each other.



    I agree with pike. This is frightening.

     
  25. This post has been removed.

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share