Last nights game

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]I'm complimenting Lackey, I also thought he played great defense. But I'm defending the other SPs as well, who one in particular has taken way too much abuse from fans here. If that SP had Lackey's support, he'd be the one getting accolades and high praise. But it is what it is.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Understood and I see your pount DC
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]Offense--team wins. Pitching? team has it all the time. Offense? When they hit, they win. When they don't, they lose. That may be their death nail in a playoff series, unfortunately.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    And prey tell, how do you explain when the offense doesn't hit?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    Another great game offensively and all round team effort.  DMac chipped in, Josh was Josh and Papi showed little rust.  How about Ells, Gonzo and "Yup" Crawford folks.  Ells hitting his 23rd?  Can anyone say 30?

    It's great to see our "almost" the entire club back in the lineup.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from S0ftl@w. Show S0ftl@w's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=2693fa73a5e785719c2b59b83e7838f0&plckUserId=2693fa73a5e785719c2b59b83e7838f0">

    My ERA is over 5 for over 2 years. Team is losing like a clock when I start, while winning when Miller starts, so one of my cover excuses is gone. But, no need to worry, I''m getting another contract because management wants my fat face next to Cy Young. And if they don't give me a starter role, like I threatened earlier in the year, I'm calling the Rays to start for them.

    My name is Tim Wastefield, and I am the Red Sox! And I am a human launching pad who launches massive homers in nearly every start. Come watch, I'm good and fans love me!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=2693fa73a5e785719c2b59b83e7838f0&plckUserId=2693fa73a5e785719c2b59b83e7838f0 " /> My ERA is over 5 for over 2 years. Team is losing like a clock when I start, while winning when Miller starts, so one of my cover excuses is gone. But, no need to worry, I''m getting another contract because management wants my fat face next to Cy Young. And if they don't give me a starter role, like I threatened earlier in the year, I'm calling the Rays to start for them. My name is Tim Wastefield, and I am the Red Sox! And I am a human launching pad who launches massive homers in nearly every start. Come watch, I'm good and fans love me!
    Posted by S0ftl@w[/QUOTE]

    I agree with going with the hottest pitcher regardless and I guess from Millers previous start that's why hes pitching tonight.  Texas knows Wake well but has never seen Miller this season.  Could be an advantage or just wishful thinking but as long as we keep hitting it shouldn't matter much.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : This is what I'm driving at. Perception v. Performance. Anytime a Sox pitcher pitches well and the team either 1. doesn't score runs, 2. loses, it's somehow the SP not doing his job because he can't hold the other team to 1 or 2 runs....you know AN ACE. Every Sox pitcher is expected to pitch like an ACE, and even at that, the ACES themselves can't compete with that type of lack of support. In contrast, every time the pitcher pitches not well, or mediocre, and the team scores 9 or 10 or 12, 1. the pitcher gets credit for a "W"; 2. the pitcher is hailed as being gutty, gritty, a gamer. Wakefield has been thrown under a bus by just about every regular poster at some point in some thread except for me and moon. He gives up 5 runs in 8 IP and "he can't pitch in the rotation, he can't be relied on, leave him off the playoff roster, he can't go 5 IP, he throws a wiffle ball, guys hit homers off him"....He leaves with a 4-3 lead v. Minny, and the team goes on to lose, and it's "Release him, the 200th chase is a distraction, he's terrible!!!" ...He trails 3-1 to Chicago in the 7th inning, and he got abuse for that. It's incredible how much luckier Lackey is on the mound than Wakefield in 2011 (or even Beckett). I hope Lackey leads the team in wins, which is going to happen for sure in my opinion. But where would Lackey be if in his last 7 or 8 starts, the team didn't score runs for him. What would the perception be then? He has done a nice job at lowering his numbers, and a nice job at keeping his team in the game, but without the offense, he'd be toast on this forum and possibly toast in the Sox rotation. Starting pitching in baseball has become an illusion--Verlander is an exception, but he also goes longer per start than anyone. It's more about pitching innings where a SP can determine his own destiny. SPs rarely control their own destiny anymore due to pitch counts and bullpens. The Sox just happen to have a great bullpen.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Not sure I agree that it's become an illusion but do agree that the modern bullpen plays a huge role in why starting pitchers don't get as many decisions as they did in years gone bye.

    End of the day in the order of importance teams want basically 30 starts and 180 innings from the back end of thier rotation and 35-200 from the top two guys...after "innings" the number of quality starts (6 ip/3 runs or less) a pitcher can give you is probably the next most important stat...logic suggest that if you can give your team 6 and hold the opposion to 3 runs you'll be in most games unless you run into a guy that's dealing and putting up zero's and even then you're still in the game.

    Which bascially means if you're a starter and you "average" 6 innings per start with a 4.50 ERA you profile as a guy that keeps his team in games. With the Sox Lackey's most recent performances and even dating back to last year have him profiling as a guy that keeps you in games...nothing more nothing less, is that good enough? I'll leave that to Francona and Young to access...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    bean, i agree.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    And that's why anyone who rips a SP with a 4.50 ERA, or really even 5.00 or less, is simply not understanding of today's version of what is acceptable, and what is not. Totally different era of baseball.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]And that's why anyone who rips a SP with a 4.50 ERA, or really even 5.00 or less, is simply not understanding of today's version of what is acceptable, and what is not. Totally different era of baseball.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Agreed...
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    On Lackey, he has actually lowered his overall ERA in each of his last I think 8 successive starts. Not that it could go any higher when it started to fall, but it's also an indication that he's more consistently throwing to what the standard we are talking about with SPs. I think this is different and more accurate a way to assess John's pitching track than the way harness used parks, and Fenway to bloat his numbers adversely. Why many of us were upset with Lackey prior to recently is that not only wasn't he pitching as a No. 2 or No. 3 starter, he wasn't even pulling his weight in comparison to any starter in MLB. He was I think at one point the highest ERA SP in all of baseball about 2 months ago.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    and super high WHIP to go with his poor numbers.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]On Lackey, he has actually lowered his overall ERA in each of his last I think 8 successive starts. Not that it could go any higher when it started to fall, but it's also an indication that he's more consistently throwing to what the standard we are talking about with SPs. I think this is different and more accurate a way to assess John's pitching track than the way harness used parks, and Fenway to bloat his numbers adversely. Why many of us were upset with Lackey prior to recently is that not only wasn't he pitching as a No. 2 or No. 3 starter, he wasn't even pulling his weight in comparison to any starter in MLB. He was I think at one point the highest ERA SP in all of baseball about 2 months ago.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    He still is @ 5.98 but he is trending better of late. What he needs is to string together a few outing where he gets deep into the game and holds the opposition to a couple of runs...Until then I doubt that he'll gain the trust of the masses...not that that's the goal...

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    Isn't it sad when a guy gives up 4 runs in 6.2 innings and lowers his ERA?  And people applaud the effort.

    He has a 5.34 for the Month of August, hardly an effort worth celebrating.  If he hadn't been so terrible in May, no one would be able to say how his ERA is improving.  Of course it's improving - it was almost 7 at the all-star break.  That's like celebrating Ds because you were getting Fs.

    Wakefield has an ERA of 4.67 for August, more than half a run better than Lackey.

    Lackey's an embarassment.  Wakefield isn't much better, but he only costs $2 million.  Wake pitches like a guy making $2 million.  Lackey's picthing like a guy that needs to be sent down to the minors.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]Isn't it sad when a guy gives up 4 runs in 6.2 innings and lowers his ERA?  And people applaud the effort. He has a 5.34 for the Month of August, hardly an effort worth celebrating.  If he hadn't been so terrible in May, no one would be able to say how his ERA is improving.  Of course it's improving - it was almost 7 at the all-star break.  That's like celebrating Ds because you were getting Fs. Wakefield has an ERA of 4.67 for August, more than half a run better than Lackey. Lackey's an embarassment.  Wakefield isn't much better, but he only costs $2 million.  Wake pitches like a guy making $2 million.  Lackey's picthing like a guy that needs to be sent down to the minors.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]

    No one can argue with your asessment of both, not even Lackey himself, would disagree that he's pretty much spit the bit...End of the day they're both part of the rotation for better or worse, and both will get another 6 or 7 starts apiece down the stretch (Unless Miller bumps Wake to the pen?) So given that if they both can pitch to a 5.00 era the rest of the way and give us 6, that translate to 3.3 runs allowed per 6 innings pitched. Which in theory will keep us in every game and give us a chance to win...

    FYI, The Sox are 7-3 in Lackey's last ten starts (three QS), 6-4 in Wake's last 10 (four QS)...While neither of whom has exactly been lights out, combined the Sox are 13-7 in games they started in that period (.650 baseball). Cleary they've both been the recipient of very good runs support and good work by the pen to hold leads after taking the ball from either, if the Sox continue to win 65% of their starts the rest of the way...regardless of thier ERA...I like our chances to win the division...and once the post season begins it's game on!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    Cleary they've both been the recipient of very good runs support and good work by the pen to hold leads after taking the ball from either, if the Sox continue to win 65% of their starts the rest of the way

    Bean, I disagree with Wake's run support and pen support, it is completely different than Lackey's. Wakefield wishes he had the defense Lackey gets, the pen support he gets, and the run support (especially since win 199 when he did get run support). In Wakefield's wins this season, he has received run support, but in more than several of his outings, more recently, very little run support. And factor in the run support that occurs WHILE HE WAS ON THE MOUND. I think that is a relevant factor in the way a game sways for a SP. If you are asking the No. 5 guy to keep the other team to 1 or 2 runs and you give up 3 over 7 and you are either trailing or then your pen can't hold a lead (twice now happened for Wake, Albers and Aceves choking his leads), hard to throw it on Wake. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]Cleary they've both been the recipient of very good runs support and good work by the pen to hold leads after taking the ball from either, if the Sox continue to win 65% of their starts the rest of the way Bean, I disagree with Wake's run support and pen support, it is completely different than Lackey's. Wakefield wishes he had the defense Lackey gets, the pen support he gets, and the run support (especially since win 199 when he did get run support). In Wakefield's wins this season, he has received run support, but in more than several of his outings, more recently, very little run support. And factor in the run support that occurs WHILE HE WAS ON THE MOUND. I think that is a relevant factor in the way a game sways for a SP. If you are asking the No. 5 guy to keep the other team to 1 or 2 runs and you give up 3 over 7 and you are either trailing or then your pen can't hold a lead (twice now happened for Wake, Albers and Aceves choking his leads), hard to throw it on Wake. 
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Danny,
    I was at the game in Seattle that Wake pitched and I agree that recently he has had some bad luck...my opin was based over the last 10 starts spanning two months...Why that's important to me is that it is a sample over a 2 month period and a more accurate measure for what we might expect down the stretch...In that time Lackey's era is 5.28 and we scored 72 runs and won 7 of those games...In Wake's starts his era was 5.83, we won 6 of those and we scored 61 for Wake. The net difference was 1 win.

    Now if we elimanate his 2 IP 7 earned vs Toronto on the 4th of July...Lackey ERA in his last nine starts is 4.38 which is pretty respectable, still not great but if he pitches to that level the rest of the season we'll win more than our share of his starts...

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]On Lackey, he has actually lowered his overall ERA in each of his last I think 8 successive starts. Not that it could go any higher when it started to fall, but it's also an indication that he's more consistently throwing to what the standard we are talking about with SPs. I think this is different and more accurate a way to assess John's pitching track than the way harness used parks, and Fenway to bloat his numbers adversely. Why many of us were upset with Lackey prior to recently is that not only wasn't he pitching as a No. 2 or No. 3 starter, he wasn't even pulling his weight in comparison to any starter in MLB. He was I think at one point the highest ERA SP in all of baseball about 2 months ago.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    You are confusing 2 issues.
    1) Venue and degree of comp. faced was discussed in the context of Lackey's supposed regression since coming to Boston.

    2) What he did prior to his DL stint this year was the result of pitching with abnormal elbow inflammation, according to several sources. It wasn't reflective of venue anymore than usual. Best to judge him from his healthy outings, which began in June.

    I think you and others are now judging Lackey more accurately. I mentioned that his regression actually began in the 2nd half of 2008. I was using the criteria you are using now: Quality Starts. They diminished significantly in his last year and 1/2 in CA. They actually improved since coming to Boston!

    Lower level QS is 3 ER in 6 IP. Which is a 4.50 ERA.

    I asked you to explain the reason(s) why our offense goes south when it does. Still waiting for UR answer...


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    I thought I stated why it goes South. I say it has as much to do with who is in the lineup. You take out 3 All-Stars, the hitting dips. Last year, the injuries that mounted took a heavy hit...albeit more so on the road than at home...If you are pointing to the road limiting the team's hitting, like I said, Fenway will also bloat a team's overall numbers. I agreed with that aspect. I didn't agree that the Sox offense isn't as predominant on the road. I feel that the offense is dictating much of the road games, probably more so this season than in any previous season. But with that said, the Sox amount of QS or in my opinion starts where the pitcher gets at least 6 IP and allows 4 runs or less has never been better on the road than this season. So it's a win-win for us both. We both win the argument. The offense is better overall, the pitching is better overall. :-)
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    harness, you have to concede that there have been a far better amount of high-run games for the Sox on the road this season compared to others. That tells me the lineup is pretty potent when most of the horses are there. Youks is the only one out right now. The moment Ellsbury and Ortiz returned, the entire team shot through the roof. Even in KC with a lesser lineup, the team hit the hell out of the ball in a few of the games. So hitting and home run hitting on the road have been major factors for the Sox in winning on the road. The pitching absolutely has been nothing short of consistent, not wow consistent, but it's satisfying how few blow outs of SPs have occurred this season. Guys are going their distances in nearly every start, hitting their pitch counts, it's a pitching coach's dream...oh, oh.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]harness, you have to concede that there have been a far better amount of high-run games for the Sox on the road this season compared to others. That tells me the lineup is pretty potent when most of the horses are there. Youks is the only one out right now. The moment Ellsbury and Ortiz returned, the entire team shot through the roof. Even in KC with a lesser lineup, the team hit the hell out of the ball in a few of the games. So hitting and home run hitting on the road have been major factors for the Sox in winning on the road. The pitching absolutely has been nothing short of consistent, not wow consistent, but it's satisfying how few blow outs of SPs have occurred this season. Guys are going their distances in nearly every start, hitting their pitch counts, it's a pitching coach's dream...oh, oh.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    But this statement runs contrary to your position that the offense went south due to missing the 3 big guns. Fact is, they hit .290 without Papi/Jake/Youk in KC/TX.
    On the season, they hit .255 on the road...healthy!

    I'll ask you again: Explain what happens when the offense isn't firing, be it healthy or otherwise.  
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    when the offense isn't firing, the pitching is?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]when the offense isn't firing, the pitching is?
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Looks like it's "Miller Time" tonight's performance was impressive.  That's the kind of pitching that could keep him in the rotation next season as our #5 or 6.  If Miller can pitch like this the remainder of the year what a L/R combo he and Aceves could make for us out of the pen in the PS.  I also think Adrian may finally be getting the strength back after labrum surgery. 

    Taking three from Texas would be a great thing.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    good change of pace pitch there, craze
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]good change of pace pitch there, craze
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Noticed how I chose to stay out of this current Lackey discussion did you DC?  I told you an honest opinion will always be given regardless, thats not such a bad trait if people understand that.  
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    craze, your problem is with moon and harness, not with me. but on the note of Miller, I was a big Miller fan, and still am. I think he has great stuff, better stuff than everyone on the staff but Clay and Jon. But it all is predicated on how he keeps control. He has a great fastball. I still think in that one Chicago game that I saw on TV, he overthrew the curve. He actually threw the fastball really well that game, but missed a few on location. Varitek then kept calling for curves in which Sox were waiting on. The more he mixes it up, the better he is, and again, harnessing the control is a big factor with Andrew. He has great stuff, that no one can take away from him. Someone used a Randy Johnson comparison, I can't go that route, but he has a big lefty mentality and can throw it by guys when he wants to. I'm glad he has turned it around enough to start a big game like tonight.
     

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