Last nights game

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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]when the offense isn't firing, the pitching is?
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    When the offense isn't firing, it means the opposing pitching is really on.
    Agree or disagree?
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    agreed, always is.

     
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    Re: Last nights game

    of course, it really helps to also have crappy hitters to face. Think in terms of the AL West in general when A's face Mariners, etc.

     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]craze, your problem is with moon and harness, not with me. but on the note of Miller, I was a big Miller fan, and still am. I think he has great stuff, better stuff than everyone on the staff but Clay and Jon. But it all is predicated on how he keeps control. He has a great fastball. I still think in that one Chicago game that I saw on TV, he overthrew the curve. He actually threw the fastball really well that game, but missed a few on location. Varitek then kept calling for curves in which Sox were waiting on. The more he mixes it up, the better he is, and again, harnessing the control is a big factor with Andrew. He has great stuff, that no one can take away from him. Someone used a Randy Johnson comparison, I can't go that route, but he has a big lefty mentality and can throw it by guys when he wants to. I'm glad he has turned it around enough to start a big game like tonight.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I have always been behind Miller and completely agree DC.  He has better stuff than a couple of our pitchers I won't name "on grounds in may incriminate me" as long as he keeps control.  Miller SO Hamilton three times and was under control like a Beckett and Lackey start.

    I also realize you can handle an honest opinion without losing it so no problem there pal. 

    Have a good night!
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    a pitcher is on, the team is not, but the relievers were also on, and the hitters were not. So if you have a lineup that features 3 or 4 guys who are easy outs, you become easy outs...not all the time..but often. That is why when they do hit, like some did in KC, it's gravy.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    You call what happened in KC gravy?
    That "AAAline-up" of Boston, as you mentioned several times, hit better than the regulars do when on the road. Was it a fluke? Or was it taking advantage of some of the league's worst starting pitching???
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    you mean lousy hitters feasted on lousy pitchers? ummmm, interesting.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    harness, i know where you are driving it. You feel if it's a great pitcher, he shuts down hitters, and if it's a lousy pitcher, all hitters can hit that. So in your mind, it's all about how good the SP is...is that what you are driving at? So you can say that pitching is predominant?
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    Do you think the Sox faced elite pitching during the stretch on the AL West/Central Road Trip last year, that was the stretch when 4 regulars were out of action and the team slumped badly offensively? Because that to me again was all about the lack of talent in the hitting lineup. Do you really think the AAA lineup of a slumping Crawford (now he's not slumping, but he was), Lavarnway (new to any MLB pitching), Aviles, Reddick (badly slumping back to what moon feared he really was, not much of a hitter), Scutaro, to go with Salty, Pedroia, and a slumping AGON too could produce a strong offense on the road over a course of 20 straight games? I don't, and I don't care who is pitching. The weaker the lineup over the course of time, the weaker your offense. The Sox offense is a locomotive, a juggernaut if you will, one that when everyone is healthy (only Youk out now) hits the way it has been hitting in Texas. It's why they were averaging 5 runs or more per game on the road. You take Ellsbury, Ortiz, Youkilis out and then be playing sad facsimiles of AGON, Crawford (both were doing very little the past several weeks combined), the lineup is severely comprimised. As you said, facing KC, they faced maybe a lousy pitching staff, so it may have something to do with a weaker lineup winning 3 of 4. Maybe it was a fluke.

     
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    Re: Last nights game

    I think what both of you guys are trying to say is...

    Most of the time Great pitching beats great hitting and most of the time Good pitching beats good hitting.

    Most of the time great hitting beats good pitching and most of the time Good hitting beats mediocre pitching.

    Almost always Great hitting, kills mediocre pitching...

    Over the coarse of 162 games it the teams that more often than not come out on the positive side of all of the above that go to the post season and if they can managed to do that 11 times once in they get one of those trophies with the shiny flags on it.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    bean, excellent, excellent post. agreed.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : So Lackey is lucky when the defense plays well and gets behind 3-0 and gets out of it is beyond your comprehension??????? I bet if it was Beckett or Lester your comments would be. A great job by XXXXXXXX after he walked that run in and went to 3-0 I thought for sure the game was over. However the greatness of XXXXXXX showed through when he came back and got the outs he needed. Which is what most RS fans would say.BTW since the AS game he is 6-1 4.65 ERA with 3 wins against TB, Tex and NYY
    Posted by JimfromFlorida[/QUOTE]

    hes been better. great for us.
    miller has been better the last 2 starts (though hes been wining since hes been up). not too many people giving him credit when he does well.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]Do you think the Sox faced elite pitching during the stretch on the AL West/Central Road Trip last year, that was the stretch when 4 regulars were out of action and the team slumped badly offensively? Because that to me again was all about the lack of talent in the hitting lineup. Do you really think the AAA lineup of a slumping Crawford (now he's not slumping, but he was), Lavarnway (new to any MLB pitching), Aviles, Reddick (badly slumping back to what moon feared he really was, not much of a hitter), Scutaro, to go with Salty, Pedroia, and a slumping AGON too could produce a strong offense on the road over a course of 20 straight games? I don't, and I don't care who is pitching. The weaker the lineup over the course of time, the weaker your offense. The Sox offense is a locomotive, a juggernaut if you will, one that when everyone is healthy (only Youk out now) hits the way it has been hitting in Texas. It's why they were averaging 5 runs or more per game on the road. You take Ellsbury, Ortiz, Youkilis out and then be playing sad facsimiles of AGON, Crawford (both were doing very little the past several weeks combined), the lineup is severely comprimised. As you said, facing KC, they faced maybe a lousy pitching staff, so it may have something to do with a weaker lineup winning 3 of 4. Maybe it was a fluke.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]


    Bean hit it true. It's the reason why compromised line-ups (due to injury or talent level) will falter over time. It's the reason why good line-ups hit flat spots.

    If Boston faced some of the league's better pitchers, in pitching venues, on a constant basis, these droughts would be common place.

    My whole point is: Boston's best chances lie with their pitching staff.
    Why? Because their hitting can be slowed down or stopped. And the odds of this occurring more frequently rise against better competition...as in playoff competition. [circa 2009 for example].



     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : Bean hit it true. It's the reason why compromised line-ups (due to injury or talent level) will falter over time. It's the reason why good line-ups hit flat spots. If Boston faced some of the league's better pitchers, in pitching venues, on a constant basis, these droughts would be common place. My whole point is : Boston's best chances lie with their pitching staff. Why? Because their hitting can be slowed down or stopped. And the odds of this occurring more frequently rise against better competition...as in playoff competition. [circa 2009 for example].
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Heck you need look no further than last years World Series for an example how pitching swings the balance of power in a short series. I still contend had Beckett been healthy in 2008 we may have won back to back titles even with an offesne that was compromised...

    The one constant with every WS champ has been pitching and typically it's one guy that steps up and dominates taking the pressure off the rest of the staff see Beckett in 2007, Hammels in 08 Sabathia in 09 and Lincecum last year...It's one thing to have your rotation setup for the post season, it's entirely a differnet matter as to who's #1 brings their A game when the light go on.

    The question I have is....Is this the year Lester finally pitches big in big games and strings together 4 or 5 dominant performances and along with Beckett lead us to a WS...
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : Heck you need look no further than last years World Series for an example how pitching swings the balance of power in a short series. I still contend had Beckett been healthy in 2008 we may have won back to back titles even with an offesne that was compromised... The one constant with every WS champ has been pitching and typically it's one guy that steps up and dominates taking the pressure off the rest of the staff see Beckett in 2007, Hammels in 08 Sabathia in 09 and Lincecum last year...It's one thing to have your rotation setup for the post season, it's entirely a differnet matter as to who's #1 brings their A game when the light go on. The question I have is....Is this the year Lester finally pitches big in big games and strings together 4 or 5 dominant performances and along with Beckett lead us to a WS...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    Well, it might depend on who's catching Lester. Tek has gotten so much more out of him consistently than Salty this year or VMART last year.
    In fact, Lester is almost twice as good with Tek.

    This decision could be key in a short 5-game series.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : Well, it might depend on who's catching Lester. Tek has gotten so much more out of him consistently than Salty this year of VMART last year. In fact, Lester is almost twice as good with Tek. This decision could be key in a short 5-game series.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    It'd be hard to take Salty out of the rotation...I'd ask Lester who he want's and then tell em to go out and getter dun!
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    That's not fair to Lester, as he'd be slighting a team mate. His production with each speaks for itself. Ever try to ask a pitcher if he wants to stay in a game?

    This one's on Tito/Theo. They sat Tek in 2009...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : Heck you need look no further than last years World Series for an example how pitching swings the balance of power in a short series. I still contend had Beckett been healthy in 2008 we may have won back to back titles even with an offesne that was compromised... The one constant with every WS champ has been pitching and typically it's one guy that steps up and dominates taking the pressure off the rest of the staff see Beckett in 2007, Hammels in 08 Sabathia in 09 and Lincecum last year...It's one thing to have your rotation setup for the post season, it's entirely a differnet matter as to who's #1 brings their A game when the light go on. The question I have is....Is this the year Lester finally pitches big in big games and strings together 4 or 5 dominant performances and along with Beckett lead us to a WS...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    Well said Bean, I feel if a team is in a slump "which the Sox were" partly due to injuries, it doesn't really matter who the opposing pitcher is, as we learned the past few weeks.  Some tried to play it off as the dominant pitching being the primary factor.  Sure the better pitchers made it that much more difficult on us but there were also a mix of pretty mediocre pitchers we couldn't beat either. 

    As far as Beckett and Lester go they may do just that through the PS.  It's our number three we need to worry about in the if Clay is out.  I also feel we could have a very solid LH/RH combination in the pen of Miller and Aceves if they continue to pitch well.  We are now heading into a series with the A's "a team we can't take lightly" who also have some pretty decent pitching.  My bet is the Sox will continue to roll if the offense stays focused and Wake gives us a decent outing tonight to start things off.   
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]watching slackey pitch is like watching flies procreate.however, his ERA is now south of 6.00. who would have thought that would ever happen? now if only jd crawford can get his OBP over .300, i'll apologize to theo concerning these 2 great signings.
    Posted by theYAZZER[/QUOTE]

    Well, now we know what you really do in your spare time.

    Your back handed complement to Lackey is an amazing departure from your norm.  Are you feeling the touch of morality or something?

    I seriously doubt you'll ever complement Theo straight out.  You just can't do it.   It doesn't matter the club is 30 games over .500 with several players coming off the DL ....

    Makes me wonder what is would take for you to straight out complement someone.  Probably not even two or three more WS crowns ... 

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : Sorry dont believe your theory about who is catching a pitcher. They help a little, but the Pitcher is actually throwing the ball, Catcher just catches it. Bottom line it is execution of pitches. Last night should have proven that.
    Posted by bobbysu[/QUOTE]

    A lot of people don't believe in "the harness/moon theory" bobbysu.  If a pitcher does better with a particular pitcher in most cases it's either psychological because he feels more confident in Teks experience "like Beckett" or just how he prepares for a particular team.  Some pitchers don't need any "game calling" skills from their catcher, just a sense of where to set up for certain hitters.  A perfect example would be Halladay and Lee.  Both have had decent "not great" catchers on different teams and done just fine.

    A pitchers job is to learn the hitters and where to pitch them, not allow the catcher to dictate a game.  If a pitcher doesn't have this ability or may be a bit inexperienced, then he may need more help from a guy like Tek.  In that case instead of a pitcher shaking off his catcher until he calls the correct pitch/location Tek will suggest it for them.  Veterans pitchers like Lee and Halladay don't need much help and definitely won't pitch better just because a guy like Tek is catching.  Unless maybe the pitcher wasn't familiar with a team or batter and Tek was.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : A lot of people don't believe in "the harness/moon theory" bobbysu.  If a pitcher does better with a particular pitcher in most cases it's either psychological because he feels more confident in Teks experience "like Beckett" or just how he prepares for a particular team.  Some pitchers don't need any "game calling" skills from their catcher, just a sense of where to set up for certain hitters.  A perfect example would be Halladay and Lee.  Both have had decent "not great" catchers on different teams and done just fine. A pitchers job is to learn the hitters and where to pitch them, not allow the catcher to dictate a game.  If a pitcher doesn't have this ability or maybe a bit inexperienced, then he may need more help from a guy like Tek.  Veterans pitchers like Lee and Halladay don't need much help.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Hey craze,

    Not sure I agree with the above becasue your assuming that the guys that Halladay has pitched too are less than game callers...Ruiz in Philly is a pretty good catcher.

    That said, I do think we overestimate the game calling ability of Varitek and as a rule underestimate that skill in almost every other guy...inpart because that is one of Varitek real strengths and is a means to qualify why he's still on the roster after failing to hit above .230 for quite awile and he's not exactly been above average thrwoing out runners. His detractors will cite his game calling abilties as overrated, because frankly "calling a good game" is an intangable that can't be measured, if you don't accept the ERA data of like pitchers on the same team pitcher to differnet catchers as meaniful. It's alot easier to quantify tangables like batting ave and caught stealing pct.

    Buccholz had little problem pitching to Martinez last year...while Beckett struggled? Given the struggles of Lackey I'd be inclined to have Tek catch him if for no other reason that to test the formula...
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]That's not fair to Lester, as he'd be slighting a team mate. His production with each speaks for itself. Ever try to ask a pitcher if he wants to stay in a game? This one's on Tito/Theo. They sat Tek in 2009...
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I didn't suggest that he do so in the globe or even while standing on a chair in the clubhouse...

    It's a simpe as Francona taking him for a walk and asking..."hey kid, if you has a choice between tek and salty in a must win game who's the guy your rather throw to"

    I do agree in the end it's Francona's call and I would hope he'd make the choice based on whom gave us the best chance to win...what you or I don't know is the chemistry between Lester and Salty...sometimes a pitcher doesn't want a catcher calling his game, but rather to follow the game plan and then adjust according to which of his pitches are best that day...
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : Bean hit it true. It's the reason why compromised line-ups (due to injury or talent level) will falter over time. It's the reason why good line-ups hit flat spots. If Boston faced some of the league's better pitchers, in pitching venues, on a constant basis, these droughts would be common place. My whole point is : Boston's best chances lie with their pitching staff. Why? Because their hitting can be slowed down or stopped. And the odds of this occurring more frequently rise against better competition...as in playoff competition. [circa 2009 for example].
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I agree that great pitching slows down great hitting. But remember that the 2011 Sox have hit some very good pitchers this year, and knocked around the Yanks ace. They beat up a good Texas pitching staff (except for CJ Wilson) just this week alone. AGON wasn't there in 2009. The team's offensive makeup is a better hitting catcher (apologies to Tek, but also Miller threw a lot better last night with Salty....not only that he mixed his pitches a lot better than he did in ChiTown, which could be the pitching coach and Salty and Miller with better control. However, even I questioned the over-use of curves that Tek called in ChiTown. I only bring this up to show that Salty may be a lot better behind the dish than some give him credit for...I know that Tek is still an asset with the veteran hurlers). .........I don't have time to look at the stat numbers, but I'd venture to educationally guess that the Sox have scored tons of runs early in games on the road. In those games, the SPs have had a luxury to throw while being way ahead, and in some cases, the final result was a far better start from a statistical standpoint. This can't be described in statistics, the way games change because offense dictated early on that one team controlled the other. This is where I think harness and I differ (maybe he has the same thought, but he has driven the pitching predominance theory, so probably not). It is far easier to pitch and to throw to contact up 6-0 than it is in a 2-1 game. . .Everything, including momentum is on the side of the team that is ahead. That is why there are fewer and fewer comebacks in the 9th innings of games, why closers have high save percentages for opportunities. The importance of getting ahead of your opponent early in a game, allowing the pitcher to not have the pressure and having the luxury of allowing a few baserunners (think Lackey) and still knowing your team is ok and ahead. The roof won't collapse. This is predicated by offense, not pitching. Offense of the Red Sox has been a premium this season. Home runs on the road are killing the other teams. 4 homers in 4 innings off a pretty good hurler. I mentioned the Tampa v. NY game when Tampa hit 5 solos off Sabathia. You can hear a pin drop in Tankee Stadium that night. That is because of offense, not because of great pitching. . .The Sox offense has been built to be a juggernaut. They don't have Youks in the lineup. If Youks is there and hitting, this team destroys a lot of teams. CC hitting, Youks hitting, AGON hitting, Ortiz hitting, Pedroia hitting, Ellsbury hitting, then factor in when Salty hits for power, when Scutaro has an 8-for-11 streak, and then you can see why this team is an offensive juggernaut. Power, runs, control games. SP is very good, bullpen is great, really great in my opinion. Bullpens can hold on to leads too (and blow them like they did several times in some past seasons)....Sure, if you face Philadelphia, maybe the chips are stacked in Philly's favor. But the Sox have the ability to knock the best pitchers off their perch. I like the Sox chances.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : Bean hit it true. It's the reason why compromised line-ups (due to injury or talent level) will falter over time. It's the reason why good line-ups hit flat spots. If Boston faced some of the league's better pitchers, in pitching venues, on a constant basis, these droughts would be common place. My whole point is : Boston's best chances lie with their pitching staff. Why? Because their hitting can be slowed down or stopped. And the odds of this occurring more frequently rise against better competition...as in playoff competition. [circa 2009 for example].
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Bay didn't hit at Anaheim. In fact, no one hit at Anaheim. No one hit a homer, no one even hit an extra base hit. It was a joke. They got schooled, and tooled. It was not the typical Sox games in Anaheim. That team had holes too (2009). They had VMART, they had Bay (who was slumping, not the 2008 version), they had Youks, they had Pedroia, they had Ortiz (not the '11 version).....this 2011 team has a MVPesque Ellsbury, MVPesque AGON, who is Manny like in my opinion, and something you cannot underestimate in a series, Ortiz is hitting better, more like his 2003-2007 version of him, Pedroia has hot some hot and cold streaks, but we know what he is capable of, Youkilis isn't even back yet, and he's capable of carrying a single game. Salty gives them a power stroke behind the dish at any point. To use your mantra of small sample size, remember also that the Sox ripped the ball early in that gm 3 at Fenway, murdered the Angels No. 3 SP. They slept-walk v. Weaver, Lackey. I have rarely seen that, even the weaker lineups of the Sox v. Oakland saw some Sox offense on the road. But remember that was Papelbon's implosion season of 09. He then did what he was doing in several cases during reg. season. He imploded and the series ended. The Angels also may have been due to beat the Sox. Facing the same teams, over and over again in the playoffs with primarily the same hitters v. the same pitchers. After a while, scouting reports, and manager insight comes into play. Maybe the Angels just had the Sox number that series. Pitching was just one factor, there were others going against Sox that I just mentioned. This is 2011...Sox can win this thing. This team can win the WS. I never thought the 2009 team could win, seriously. check my posts that season, I didn't have confidence that that team could win, and then they got swept in the ALDS.....this team? Far, far, far better.
     

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