Last nights game

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    Maybe the Sox don't have the SP edge. They have a pretty good overall makeup. I like the 2011 chances, far better than 2009.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    Maybe the Sox don't have the SP edge. They have a pretty good overall makeup. I like the 2011 chances, far better than 2009.
    Posted by dannycater


    DC, Miller pitched better last night than I have seen Lackey pitch all year.  This isn't meant to be a "bash Lackey" thread but this was a Texas lineup where he SO Hamilton three times.  This performance is what should be expected from Lackey once in awhile after the signing is it not? 

    I love Miller and hope this continues because it will make Theo's choice to bring back Bedard and/or Wake that much easier next season.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : I see your point bean, I still feel how a pitcher prepares for a game is most important, along with his knowledge of each hitter.  I agree with Teks game calling ability but I think in many cases he gives our staff that psychological feeling of comfort that allows them to have more confidence.  They may not pitch as well with other catchers because the confidence level may not be the same.  Any catcher on the same club for 15 years would probably have the same respect.    This is a debate I would love to monitor after Tek has been gone for a couple years, or if Tek plays for another team before retiring.  I think the "game calling" and credit given is more Tek's presence in Boston than game calling ability, but if it helps our club l'm all for it. When did Tek become a great game caller, does anyone know? ... Was it after winning a couple championships with good staffs  ... How did Tek compare with other catchers with equal staff talent before 04?  Arizona with Schil and Randy and maybe the Yankees would be two good teams to start with.  Was it the staff, or the catchers ability to call a great game? ... How did he compare with other well known catchers with less staff talent before 04? This should have moon and harness jumping at the opportunity to present some sort of stats :)  but lets all be ready to double check their research.
    Posted by craze4sox


    Craze...

    Not exactly sure how to go about explaining what you're looking for in regards to when the light came on for Tek behind the plate and when he entered the zen master game calling seer of all. I'd sugest that he always had the ability and over the years has perfected his craft, again it's an intangable that TeK posseses, he doesn't however have exclusive rights to it...Fact of the matter is he does call a good good game, but he also does little things to help his pitchers through tough innings...calling the pitch is only one facet of calling a good game and if a pitcher is locating all of his pitches on the black...I could call a good game as long I caught the ball.

    Confidence in executing the pitch, knowing the guy behind the plate is not only going to catch it but also sticks the throws and frames it to give blue the best look is another tangable that can't be mesured using stats.

    I guess in the end you have to trust that there's a reason that Varitek has a C on his chest and that many a seasoned veteren has commented on his ability to call a good game dating back to the late 1990's when it was Pedro and pray for rain...
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    Maybe the Sox don't have the SP edge. They have a pretty good overall makeup. I like the 2011 chances, far better than 2009.
    Posted by dannycater


    Me too, cause we can't unring that bell and with the way he's throwing thw ball and with his pending big pay day in the offseason awaiting him, I don't see Papelbon blowing a 5-2 lead with two down and 0-2 count on Figgin's in the top of the 9th...Which would have made it a series and I liked our chances in game 4 with Lester schduled to pitch at home...
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Craze... Not exactly sure how to go about explaining what you're looking for in regards to when the light came on for Tek behind the plate and when he entered the zen master game calling seer of all. I'd sugest that he always had the ability and over the years has perfected his craft, again it's an intangable that TeK posseses, he doesn't however have exclusive rights to it...Fact of the matter is he does call a good good game, but he also does little things to help his pitchers through tough innings...calling the pitch is only one facet of calling a good game and if a pitcher is locating all of his pitches on the black...I could call a good game as long I caught the ball. Confidence in executing the pitch, knowing the guy behind the plate is not only going to catch it but also sticks the throws and frames it to give blue the best look is another tangable that can't be mesured using stats. I guess in the end you have to trust that there's a reason that Varitek has a C on his chest and that many a seasoned veteren has commented on his ability to call a good game dating back to the late 1990's when it was Pedro and pray for rain...
    Posted by Beantowne


    Fair enough bean, I just keep listening to fans give credit to Teks "game calling" but the same fans are completely silence when he or his battery mate loses.  Time will tell us more, as far as the C goes?  In my opinion it should have gone to Youk or Pede when Tek jumped on the Boras bandwagon thinking he may be worth more to another club.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Fair enough bean, I just keep listening to fans give credit to Teks "game calling" but the same fans are completely silence when he or his battery mate loses.  Time will tell us more, as far as the C goes?  In my opinion it should have gone to Youk or Pede when Tek jumped on the Boras bandwagon.
    Posted by craze4sox


    Time will tells us more? huh? regarding the C I don't even think that Pedey was a member of the Sox in the fall of 2005 when tek resigned and was awarded the C and Youk wasn't even an every day player at that point? as for Boras he has represented Varitek since he graduated for college...

    I think I detect that you're truly not a fan of Tek's, which is fine. I don't want to defensd the guys existance...I appreciate what the guy brings to the team and as a guy that coaches youth baseball trust me...having a stud behind the plate makes a huge difference in the confidence of the guy stading 60ft away with a rock in has hand....
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Time will tells us more? huh? regarding the C I don't even think that Pedey was a member of the Sox in the fall of 2005 when tek resigned and was awarded the C and Youk wasn't even an every day player at that point? as for Boras he has represented Varitek since he graduated for college... I think I detect that you're truly not a fan of Tek's, which is fine. I don't want to defensd the guys existance...I appreciate what the guy brings to the team and as a guy that coaches youth baseball trust me...having a stud behind the plate makes a huge difference in the confidence of the guy stading 60ft away with a rock in has hand....
    Posted by Beantowne


    Come on bean, I don't hate Tek but also won't put him on a pedestal like some.  When Tek turned down what would have been a guaranteed 10mil through arbitration in 09, both Pede and Youk were established players.  Tek believed Boras could get him a long term contract but failed, then Tek left Boras out of the negotiations and came back to Boston to agree on half which he was luck to get.  You should remember this, or it can be researched very easily.

    Tek hit 220 with a 672 OPS in 08, then 209 in 09 with a 7O3 OPS while about to become a permanent back up. 

    Just curious bean,
    Do you feel Tek should have been given the C back after all this, or lost it to Pede or Youk who proved their dedication and were actually the real leaders of our team? 
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Me too, cause we can't unring that bell and with the way he's throwing thw ball and with his pending big pay day in the offseason awaiting him, I don't see Papelbon blowing a 5-2 lead with two down and 0-2 count on Figgin's in the top of the 9th...Which would have made it a series and I liked our chances in game 4 with Lester schduled to pitch at home...
    Posted by Beantowne

    Bean, I don't think people quite understood how close that series went from Angels in 3 to Sox in 5...I was completely drawing up in my head how Lester would send it to 5, and that the Sox would have all the momentum. It was a monumental collapse of epic proportions to have that game virtually won. Papelbon just fell apart though. It was his one postseason failure, and he's been lights out in the postseason otherwise. His confidence is back to 2007 and that's a good thing.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from NUSoxFan. Show NUSoxFan's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Bean, I don't think people quite understood how close that series went from Angels in 3 to Sox in 5...I was completely drawing up in my head how Lester would send it to 5, and that the Sox would have all the momentum. It was a monumental collapse of epic proportions to have that game virtually won. Papelbon just fell apart though. It was his one postseason failure, and he's been lights out in the postseason otherwise. His confidence is back to 2007 and that's a good thing.
    Posted by dannycater


    This is crazy. Lets not forget that we lost that series. Winning one game doesn't change that, Lester had already pitched, and lost. Momentum is also pure drivel. We came back from a 3-1 series deficet in 2008 against the Rays and everyone was saying how "momentum is on the side of the Sox". We lost. In 2009 we weren't going anywhere, Papelbon's implosion didn't help, but it sure as hell wasn't the single thing that lost us that series.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Come on bean, I don't hate Tek but also won't put him on a pedestal like some.  When Tek turned down what would have been a gauranteed 10mil through arbitration in 09, both Pede and Youk were established players.  Tek believed Boras could get him a long term contract but failed, then Tek left Boras out of the negotiations and came back to Boston to agree on half the money.  You should remember this, or it can be researched very easily. Tek hit 220 with a 672 OPS in 08 and 209 in 2009 with a 7O3 OPS whilew about to become a back up which he has been ever since.  Did any of this warrant Tek getting the C back, or should he have lost it to Pede or Youk who proved their dedication and were actually the real leaders of our team?
    Posted by craze4sox


    Hey craze, Hate is strong word and that's not what I meant by saying you don't appear to be a fan of Tek's. I'm not a big fan of Scutaro's but that doesn't imply hate...

    As for the Boras negotiations, bottom line is if you asked Tek he'd concur that he made the wrong decision not to accept arbitration if indeed the motive was to garner a better deal...What neither of us know is did he have a gentleman agreement with the Sox that if offered he'd decline...

    Tek's C is a badge of honor, one he earned and I never allow the buisiness of baseball to cloud my judgement of players...I root for the name on the front of the uniform first and foremost. To me it's irrelvent who's name is on the back. Tek in 2004 took a "hometown discount" and made it clear to boras and every GM in the game that he would negoitate a deal with the Sox and had little or no interest in fielding offers of which there would ahve been many...Youk, Pedrioa and Lester all signed the standard arb plus 2 contracts that are now SOP in baseball, thier loyalty to the Sox had nothing to do with it...it was good sound business management on behalf of thier agents and themselves...each of them are very wealthy youngmen with garanteed moneys regardless of health or performance....Others like Ells and Paplebon are rolling the dice in hopes of reaching FA injury free and performing at a high level in the case of the former the club carries all the risk, in the latter it's the players...

    Loyalty is an oft overuse term that doesn't apply in the world of business, unless your the guy writing the checks. Then you reward loyalty as long as it makes sense in your business model..a loyal employee will find himself unemployed one day if his performance falls below the standard level of acceptance and or the company needs to tighten the belt...
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    NU, the game was over, that meant the series was extended. This is a team that has often done quite well down 2-0--v. Oakland, v. Cleveland, v. Anaheim. Down 3-0 v. NYY. Sorry, the Sox lost in 3, but that was a Sox win that was blown badly in the 9th. 
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : This is crazy. Lets not forget that we lost that series . Winning one game doesn't change that, Lester had already pitched, and lost . Momentum is also pure drivel. We came back from a 3-1 series deficet in 2008 against the Rays and everyone was saying how "momentum is on the side of the Sox". We lost. In 2009 we weren't going anywhere, Papelbon's implosion didn't help, but it sure as hell wasn't the single thing that lost us that series.
    Posted by NUSoxFan


    I agree it wasn't the single thing that cost us, but it was the final thing that lost us that series...momentum in baseball is only as good as your next days starter (just ask the 2004 Yank's)

    There's certainly no way a saying with absolute resolve that we would have come back an won the series...

    Had we held the lead in game 3, you gottas like your chances at home in game 4 with Lester on the bump!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Hey craze, Hate is strong word and that's not what I meant by saying you don't appear to be a fan of Tek's. I'm not a big fan of Scutaro's but that doesn't imply hate... As for the Boras negotiations, bottom line is if you asked Tek he'd concur that he made the wrong decision not to accept arbitration if indeed the motive was to garner a better deal...What neither of us know is did he have a gentleman agreement with the Sox that if offered he'd decline... Tek's C is a badge of honor, one he earned and I never allow the buisiness of baseball to cloud my judgement of players...I root for the name on the front of the uniform first and foremost. To me it's irrelvent who's name is on the back. Tek in 2004 took a "hometown discount" and made it clear to boras and every GM in the game that he would negoitate a deal with the Sox and had little or no interest in fielding offers of which there would ahve been many...Youk, Pedrioa and Lester all signed the standard arb plus 2 contracts that are now SOP in baseball, thier loyalty to the Sox had nothing to do with it...it was good sound business management on behalf of thier agents and themselves...each of them are very wealthy youngmen with garanteed moneys regardless of health or performance....Others like Ells and Paplebon are rolling the dice in hopes of reaching FA injury free and performing at a high level in the case of the former the club carries all the risk, in the latter it's the players... Loyalty is an oft overuse term that doesn't apply in the world of business, unless your the guy writing the checks. Then you reward loyalty as long as it makes sense in your business model..a loyal employee will find himself unemployed one day if his performance falls below the standard level of acceptance and or the company needs to tighten the belt...
    Posted by Beantowne


    I appreciate what Tek has done in the past but when this all came down in 09 look at Teks numbers before and after turning down more than he was already worth.  Once Tek turned down arbitration to seek a better deal I would have appointed a new captain, that's just me.  Tek didn't come back out of loyalty to the Sox, he came back because it was probably his best available offer and chance to stay with a contender.  So Tek cost himself 5mil but still kept his C.

    Tek may be the only non-starter in baseball history to hold a C for years of experience and calling a good game.  In that case Wake deserves a much bigger badge of honor.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    Tek and Wakefield are still around, that gives Duquette a badge as well.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    Tek and Wakefield are still around, that gives Duquette a badge as well.
    Posted by dannycater


    DC, I think Dans best signing that changed our team into a winner was Manny, even though he didn't make it through the entire contract.  In my opinion we wouldn't have won in 04 and 07 without Mannys bat.  I think Adrian will also win a few before leaving the Sox if he can stay healthy.

    Manny was a head case but what a hitter,
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    actually he made it into the 8th year, so he in fact only missed a half year of the contract, and the Sox got back Bay....it was the best signing in Sox history, more so acquiring Pedro from Montreal. AGON would like to be the 2nd best.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    actually he made it into the 8th year, so he in fact only missed a half year of the contract, and the Sox got back Bay....it was the best signing in Sox history, more so acquiring Pedro from Montreal. AGON would like to be the 2nd best.
    Posted by dannycater


    True, I think AGons era could bring us two or three more WC. 
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Well said Bean, I feel if a team is in a slump "which the Sox were" partly due to injuries, it doesn't really matter who the opposing pitcher is, as we learned the past few weeks.  Some tried to play it off as the dominant pitching being the primary factor.  Sure the better pitchers made it that much more difficult on us but there were also a mix of pretty mediocre pitchers we couldn't beat either.  As far as Beckett and Lester go they may do just that through the PS.  It's our number three we need to worry about in the if Clay is out.  I also feel we could have a very solid LH/RH combination in the pen of Miller and Aceves if they continue to pitch well.  We are now heading into a series with the A's "a team we can't take lightly" who also have some pretty decent pitching.  My bet is the Sox will continue to roll if the offense stays focused and Wake gives us a decent outing tonight to start things off.   
    Posted by craze4sox


    Lame. Of course it matters who the opposing pitcher is. Opposing pitchers put teams into slumps, regardless of injury-ridden line-ups.
    Opposing pitchers are also responsible for teams breaking slumps.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Sorry dont believe your theory about who is catching a pitcher. They help a little, but the Pitcher is actually throwing the ball, Catcher just catches it. Bottom line it is execution of pitches. Last night should have proven that.
    Posted by bobbysu


    If you think catchers "just catch it" and have nothing to do with pitching, you are crazy. One game proves nothing. Moon and I have posted endless data backing a catcher's relevance. Data covers years and thousands of IP.
    Where have you been?
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : A lot of people don't believe in "the harness/moon theory"bobbysu.  If a pitcher does better with a particular pitcher in most cases it's either psychologicalbecause he feels more confident in Teks experience "like Beckett" or just how he prepares for a particular team.  Some pitchers don't need any "game calling" skills from their catcher, just a sense of where to set up for certain hitters.  A perfect example would be Halladay and Lee.  Both have had decent "not great" catchers on different teams and done just fine. A pitchers job is to learn the hitters and where to pitch them, not allow the catcher to dictate a game.  If a pitcher doesn't have this ability or may be a bit inexperienced, then he may need more help from a guy like Tek.  In that case instead of a pitcher shaking off his catcher until he calls the correct pitch/location Tek will suggest it for them.  Veterans pitchers like Lee and Halladay don't need much help and definitely won't pitch better just because a guy like Tek is catching.  Unless maybe the pitcher wasn't familiar with a team or batter and Tek was.
    Posted by craze4sox


    Who's "a lot of people"?

    How do you know what goes on in a pitcher's head? Ever toe the rubber?

    What do you know about Halladay and Lee?

    Halladay comparison with:
    Molina: 2.61 ERA 140+ IP .229 OPP BA  .615 OPS
    Zahn:   4.40 ERA    71 IP  .292 OPP BA  .738 OPS 

    Lee was so bad with VMART that Shoppach caught his CY Young season.
    From the time Shoppach came up until VMART left Cleveland, Lee's ERA with VMART was over 5! It was 2.5 with Shoppach. Covering 250+ IP each!

    Try researching before talking out of the other side of UR mouth.
    It helps in forming more accurate opinions.

    And before you start posting about familiarity and battery match-ups, let me save you the time. I showed last year that entire pitching staffswere compromised by poor receivers. The data is undeniable. SEE VMART in Boston or Cleveland.
    See Napoli in CA. See Suzuki in Seattle. On and on. Year after year.

    Who calls for pre-game prep (going over hitters) and who has the data? Catchers/pitching coaches or pitchers?

    UR mind continues to be stuck in neutral.
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Bean, I don't think people quite understood how close that series went from Angels in 3 to Sox in 5...I was completely drawing up in my head how Lester would send it to 5, and that the Sox would have all the momentum. It was a monumental collapse of epic proportions to have that game virtually won. Papelbon just fell apart though. It was his one postseason failure, and he's been lights out in the postseason otherwise. His confidence is back to 2007 and that's a good thing.
    Posted by dannycater


    And I'll take that one step further: A split in CA would have changed the complexion of the whole series. And if Boston's pitching could have kept the games closer, it would have increased the amount of pressure on the home team. One of those games could have been altered by a matter of a few of more innings of scoreless ball.

    1) Angels had never beaten Boston in a Playoff series until 2009.
    2) Tek never sat in any PO game vs. CA until 2009.
    3) Beckett's form went south the very dayTek went down w/muscle spasms and VMART caught him.
    4) VMART caught the staff in the 2009 playoffs.
    5) Papelbon never imploded in the PO's.
    6) Tek caught Paps in his previous PO games.
    7) Tek did not catch Paps in his lone PO appearance/implosion of 2009.
    8) VMART did.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : Who's "a lot of people"? How do you know what goes on in a pitcher's head? Ever toe the rubber? What do you know about Halladay and Lee? Halladay comparison with: Molina: 2.61 ERA 140+ IP .229 OPP BA  .615 OPS Zahn:   4.40 ERA    71 IP  .292 OPP BA  .738 OPS  Lee was so bad with VMART that Shoppach caught his CY Young season. From the time Shoppach came up until VMART left Cleveland, Lee's ERA with VMART was over 5! It was 2.5 with Shoppach. Covering 250+ IP each! Try researching before talking out of the other side of UR mouth. It helps in forming more accurate opinions. And before you start posting about familiarity and battery match-ups, let me save you the time. I showed last year that entire pitching staffs were compromised by poor receivers. The data is undeniable. SEE VMART in Boston or Cleveland. See Napoli in CA. See Suzuki in Seattle. On and on. Year after year. Who calls for pre-game prep (going over hitters) and who has the data? Catchers/pitching coaches or pitchers? UR mind continues to be stuck in neutral.
    Posted by harness


    harness again you must think we are all a bunch of idiots.  Halladay had the following catchers and others who saw less significant playing time between 1998 to 2009.  You chose to research two?  You also once again only used some of the actual stats, even with Lee to skew your numbers. 

    This has been your MO and why many of us don't believe anything you write.
      Just do us all a favor and stick to your own silly threads.

    Santiago
    Zahn
    Molina
    Borders
    Matheny
    Castillo
    Fletcher
    Phelps
    Cash
    Huckaby
    Myers
    Phillips
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : And I'll take that one step further: A split in CA would have changed the complexion of the whole series. And if Boston's pitching could have kept the games closer, it would have increased the amount of pressure on the home team. One of those games could have been altered by a matter of a few of more innings of scoreless ball. 1) Angels had never beaten Boston in a Playoff series until 2009. 2) Tek never sat in any PO game vs. CA until 2009. 3) Beckett's form went south the very day Tek went down w/muscle spasms and VMART caught him. 4) VMART caught the staff in the 2009 playoffs. 5) Papelbon never imploded in the PO's. 6) Tek caught Paps in his previous PO games. 7) Tek did not catch Paps in his lone PO appearance/implosion of 2009. 8) VMART did.
    Posted by harness


    harness,
    I think your overall arguement in sound. I don't need to be convinced of the impact a good defensive catcher can have on a particular pitcher or staff. The evidence is overwhelming if you buy into CERA as a good measure and the overall staff ERA with one guy vs another, but often that's a tougher stat to get behind becasue often the ace prefers a personal catcher like Maddux in Atlanta for example, who never threw to Lopez. 

    If one doesn't accept a pitchers ERA and or a teams collective ERA as evidence of the impact one catcher has over another on the same staff during the same season. It's imposible to persuade them becasue there is no quatifiable measure for "calling a good game" or for the matter something as simple as framing pitches and stickin throws, blocking ballsin the dirt etc...some of the essential tools of a good reciever, it's not always about the pitch itself. Therein lyes the struggle for statistiions who love trying to quanify value using numerical defensive metric. No one includig Bill James has the ability to quantify a catchers ability to call a good game using stats specific to the the count, the pitch type, velocity, location, that days umpires strikezone, nor how well the catcher sticks throws that result in an out or a strike called that wouldn't otherwise have been called or made by another reciever....

    Varitek's one of the better at the above and I don't need you or moon to convince me of that...Nor do I feel like I need to convince those that struggle with accepting the concept of the impact a good defensive catcher has on the over all results of a team. I'll take the word of guys like David Cone, Pedro, Wells, Clemens, Schilling, Beckett and countless others that have all sung his praises over the years.

    End of the day if a pitchers painting with all three of his pitches, it ain't hard to call a good game. When one or more of his pitches aren't workin that day or in an innings that's when a guy like tek has value because he so in tune with every one of his pitchers mechanics that he can act as a pitching coach and help them through tough innings...Just another of the many intangables that guys like tek posses that guys like you and moon can't quanitify and guys like Craze see as irrelevent or less important than the ability the guy on the mound throwing to any catcher in the big leagues....

    A catchers value often is measured by his OPS and CS% on this site...both are obviously important in the big picture and I too think that having a catcher that can hit is important and helps to lengthen a teams lineup...but I also see the value in having a guy that makes the pitching staff better too...
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : harness, I think your overall arguement in sound. I don't need to be convinced of the impact a good defensive catcher can have on a particular pitcher or staff. The evidence is overwhelming if you buy into CERA as a good measure and the overall staff ERA with one guy vs another, but often that's a tougher stat to get behind becasue often the ace prefers a personal catcher like Maddux in Atlanta for example, who never threw to Lopez.  If one doesn't accept a pitchers ERA and or a teams collective ERA as evidence of the impact one catcher has over another on the same staff during the same season. It's imposible to persuade them becasue there is no quatifiable measure for "calling a good game" or for the matter something as simple as framing pitches and stickin throws, blocking ballsin the dirt etc...some of the essential tools of a good reciever, it's not always about the pitch itself. Therein lyes the struggle for statistiions who love trying to quanify value using numerical defensive metric. No one includig Bill James has the ability to quantify a catchers ability to call a good game using stats specific to the the count, the pitch type, velocity, location, that days umpires strikezone, nor how well the catcher sticks throws that result in an out or a strike called that wouldn't otherwise have been called or made by another reciever.... Varitek's one of the better at the above and I don't need you or moon to convince me of that...Nor do I feel like I need to convince those that struggle with accepting the concept of the impact a good defensive catcher has on the over all results of a team. I'll take the word of guys like David Cone, Pedro, Wells, Clemens, Schilling, Beckett and countless others that have all sung his praises over the years. End of the day if a pitchers painting with all three of his pitches, it ain't hard to call a good game. When one or more of his pitches aren't workin that day or in an innings that's when a guy like tek has value because he so in tune with every one of his pitchers mechanics that he can act as a pitching coach and help them through tough innings...Just another of the many intangables that guys like tek posses that guys like you and moon can't quanitify and guys like Craze see as irrelevent or less important than the ability the guy on the mound throwing to any catcher in the big leagues.... A catchers value often is measured by his OPS and CS% on this site...both are obviously important in the big picture and I too think that having a catcher that can hit is important and helps to lengthen a teams lineup...but I also see the value in having a guy that makes the pitching staff better too...
    Posted by Beantowne

    Well said bean, Teks calls a good game but here is my thing.  No credible source I have ever read gives CERA much credit as a tangible measure of a catchers overall worth, yet harness swears by this.  I also believe if someone is going to take a very small sample of the actual stats or calculate their own to prove a point, I'm not interested in discussing them. 

    There are many factors when judging a catchers overall worth other than calling a great game.  This isn't meant as disrespect towards Jason, just trying to address a couple previous statements.

    In July of this year Salty was ranked 85th, out of the top 95 catchers defensively with Tek at 22 as you will see below.  Mike Napoli is ranked higher than Tek at #16a player harness  or moon claimed doesn't measure up to Tek defensively.  In addition, moon stated that Mathis was better than Napoli defensively while on the Angels "I agreed" but look how Mike ranks in comparison after changing teams?  moon also stated, most teams who have won a WC have good defensive catchers like Cervelli, AJ.P and J. Molina but look where these players actually rank. 

    Some of these rankings really shocked me.

    http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/7/19/2282186/beyond-the-box-score-2011-catcher-defense-ratings-july-edition

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    In Response to Re: Last nights game : harness again you must think we are all a bunch of idiots.   Halladay had the following catchers and others who saw less significant playing time between 1998 to 2009.  You chose to research two?  You also once again only used some of the actual stats, even with Lee to skew your numbers.  This has been your MO and why many of usdon't believe anything you write.   Just do us all a favor and stick to your own silly threads. Santiago Zahn Molina Borders Matheny Castillo Fletcher Phelps Cash Huckaby Myers Phillips
    Posted by craze4sox


    Who is many of us? I showed Halladay being compromised to illustrate a point.
    A catcher can compromise a pitcher's performance. Get it?

    I noticed you stayed clear of Lee with VMART/Shoppach. Or Suzuki with everybody in Seattle. Or Napoli vs. Mathis. Wonder why?
     
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