Last nights game

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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : harness, I think your overall arguement in sound. I don't need to be convinced of the impact a good defensive catcher can have on a particular pitcher or staff. The evidence is overwhelming if you buy into CERA as a good measure and the overall staff ERA with one guy vs another, but often that's a tougher stat to get behind becasue often the ace prefers a personal catcher like Maddux in Atlanta for example, who never threw to Lopez.  If one doesn't accept a pitchers ERA and or a teams collective ERA as evidence of the impact one catcher has over another on the same staff during the same season. It's imposible to persuade them becasue there is no quatifiable measure for "calling a good game" or for the matter something as simple as framing pitches and stickin throws, blocking ballsin the dirt etc...some of the essential tools of a good reciever, it's not always about the pitch itself. Therein lyes the struggle for statistiions who love trying to quanify value using numerical defensive metric. No one includig Bill James has the ability to quantify a catchers ability to call a good game using stats specific to the the count, the pitch type, velocity, location, that days umpires strikezone, nor how well the catcher sticks throws that result in an out or a strike called that wouldn't otherwise have been called or made by another reciever.... Varitek's one of the better at the above and I don't need you or moon to convince me of that...Nor do I feel like I need to convince those that struggle with accepting the concept of the impact a good defensive catcher has on the over all results of a team. I'll take the word of guys like David Cone, Pedro, Wells, Clemens, Schilling, Beckett and countless others that have all sung his praises over the years. End of the day if a pitchers painting with all three of his pitches, it ain't hard to call a good game. When one or more of his pitches aren't workin that day or in an innings that's when a guy like tek has value because he so in tune with every one of his pitchers mechanics that he can act as a pitching coach and help them through tough innings...Just another of the many intangables that guys like tek posses that guys like you and moon can't quanitify and guys like Craze see as irrelevent or less important than the ability the guy on the mound throwing to any catcher in the big leagues.... A catchers value often is measured by his OPS and CS% on this site...both are obviously important in the big picture and I too think that having a catcher that can hit is important and helps to lengthen a teams lineup...but I also see the value in having a guy that makes the pitching staff better too...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    I realize that, Bean. The data and points Moon and I try to get across is known to many, but there are still those who are blind to the concept. Those are the ones we try to reach. It's hard to quantify intangibles. Especially to those who don't recognize that which is difficult to visually detect.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : harness, I think your overall arguement in sound. I don't need to be convinced of the impact a good defensive catcher can have on a particular pitcher or staff. The evidence is overwhelming if you buy into CERA as a good measure and the overall staff ERA with one guy vs another, but often that's a tougher stat to get behind becasue often the ace prefers a personal catcher like Maddux in Atlanta for example, who never threw to Lopez.  If one doesn't accept a pitchers ERA and or a teams collective ERA as evidence of the impact one catcher has over another on the same staff during the same season. It's imposible to persuade them becasue there is no quatifiable measure for "calling a good game" or for the matter something as simple as framing pitches and stickin throws, blocking ballsin the dirt etc...some of the essential tools of a good reciever, it's not always about the pitch itself. Therein lyes the struggle for statistiions who love trying to quanify value using numerical defensive metric. No one includig Bill James has the ability to quantify a catchers ability to call a good game using stats specific to the the count, the pitch type, velocity, location, that days umpires strikezone, nor how well the catcher sticks throws that result in an out or a strike called that wouldn't otherwise have been called or made by another reciever.... Varitek's one of the better at the above and I don't need you or moon to convince me of that...Nor do I feel like I need to convince those that struggle with accepting the concept of the impact a good defensive catcher has on the over all results of a team. I'll take the word of guys like David Cone, Pedro, Wells, Clemens, Schilling, Beckett and countless others that have all sung his praises over the years. End of the day if a pitchers painting with all three of his pitches, it ain't hard to call a good game. When one or more of his pitches aren't workin that day or in an innings that's when a guy like tek has value because he so in tune with every one of his pitchers mechanics that he can act as a pitching coach and help them through tough innings...Just another of the many intangables that guys like tek posses that guys like you and moon can't quanitify and guys like Craze see as irrelevent or less important than the ability the guy on the mound throwing to any catcher in the big leagues.... A catchers value often is measured by his OPS and CS% on this site...both are obviously important in the big picture and I too think that having a catcher that can hit is important and helps to lengthen a teams lineup...but I also see the value in having a guy that makes the pitching staff better too...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    This may be the best teacher of all!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    Enough dancing, at this point all I'm asking you and moon to do is "man up" by addressing your previous statements.

    #1 Teks calls a good game but here is my thing.  No credible source I have ever read gives CERA much credit as a tangible measure of a catchers overall worth, yet harness swears by this.  Still no tangible proof from a reputable source that CERA works - harness?

    #2
    I also believe if someone is going to take a very small sample of the actual stats or calculate their own to prove a point, I'm not interested in discussing them.  Still researching only one or two facts rather than presenting all pertinent comparisons - moon & harness?

    #3 This isn't meant as disrespect towards Jason, just trying to address a couple previous statements. In July of this year Salty was ranked 85 th , out of the top 95 catchers defensively with Tek at 22 as you will see below.  moon stated Mike doesn't measure up to Tek defensively.  Mike is ranked 16th.  Can you admit possibly being wrong on Napoli moon? 

    #4
    In addition, moon stated that Mathis was better than Napoli defensively while on the Angels "I agreed" but lhow do you explain Mike rank in comparison to mathis after changing teams?   moon also stated, most teams who have won a WC have good defensive catchers like Cervelli, AJ.P and J. Molina but look where these players actually rank. Can you admit being wrong moon?  The below stats are not made up

    http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/7/19/2282186/beyond-the-box-score-2011-catcher-defense-ratings-july-edition
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    #5 I haven't forgot harness :) tell us all why you stated part of Lackeys struggles were due to Lackey moving from the West coast to the much more unpredictable East coast weather.  I asked you to back up your statement, then also asked you why Josh never had an issue adjusting after coming from Floridaharness, You chose to run and hide
     
    If you can't answer don't bother dancing around the issues because at that point I'm done with both of you.

     
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    Re: Last nights game

    I'll state this again: You obviously weren't here last year. Moon and I dedicated a great deal of time and patience in a 1300 post thread called:
    Uncle Caddy...AKA A CATCHER'S RELEVANCE.

    It is in Archive 3. Look it up. It involves all the data you wish to see. The OP will direct you to save time. It open up many eyes. It involves CERA/WHIP/ERA/BABIP/SO-BB ratios/Hits/IP ratios/etc. It covers several pitching staffs over several years. It covers team win-loss records for each catcher. This is pertinent because the pitching staffs were adversely affected. 

    Also on the thread are posts from respected posters who chime in on the intangibles: The possible reasons for the data. It triggered several other copy-cat threads and posts. I'm burnt out by it all and don't feel like going over it again because you missed it.
    If you wish to seek it out, I'll try and help you find it.

    As for climate affecting how a ball carries, that's a no-brainer.
    If you question climate/venue affect, I have to question how long you've been following baseball. I've discussed Lackey in both venues at length on several threads.
    I also isolated venue in the FENWAY FACTOR: The Great Distortion  thread.
    Research this and you'll have your answers.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : I realize that, Bean . The data and points Moon and I try to get across is known to many, but there are still those who are blind to the concept. Those are the ones we try to reach. It's hard to quantify intangibles. Especially to those who don't recognize that which is difficult to visually detect.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    harness,

    I'm not so sure that craze is all that interesting in finding the answer. What I think, is he's already convinced himself that Tek's impact on the team is overrated...For the life of me I still can't figure out why? I get that his bat has been less than for sometime and he's not the best at throwing out guys but there's a reason he's still on the team and wearing the C on his chest and it ain't cause Francona is loyal to veterans. It's because of the way he handles the pitching staff and has embraced the role of mentor for Salty...
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : harness, I'm not so sure that craze is all that interesting in finding the answer.What I think, is he's already convinced himself that Tek's impact on the team is overrated...For the life of me I still can't figure out why? I get that his bat has been less than for sometime and he's not the best at throwing out guys but there's a reason he's still on the team and wearing the C on his chest and it ain't cause Francona is loyal to veterans. It's because of the way he handles the pitching staff and has embraced the role of mentor for Salty...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    That's why I'm not gonna spend my time going over what was stated last year. He is free to research it. I can definitely understand skepticism if one is not privy to what was stated and researched. The subject matter is important.

    Boom, whom I respect, had similar apprehensions. He too didn't participate or was willing to research that long-running thread. The statements of those who have pitched to Tek, and have a solid frame of reference with other catchers, was also alluded to. As was Tek's coaches at various levels, who stated he was so far ahead of any previous catcher they ever coached when it came to handling pitchers. Maybe that's why his teams won the big ones at every level.

    But the purpose of what I tried to get across last year was not to glorify the team captain, but to expose VMART as a liability...not an easy task when talking about one of the best hitting catchers in the game.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : harness, I'm not so sure that craze is all that interesting in finding the answer. What I think, is he's already convinced himself that Tek's impact on the team is overrated...For the life of me I still can't figure out why? I get that his bat has been less than for sometime and he's not the best at throwing out guys but there's a reason he's still on the team and wearing the C on his chest and it ain't cause Francona is loyal to veterans. It's because of the way he handles the pitching staff and has embraced the role of mentor for Salty...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    beantowne,

    With moon, he conveniently chose to erase his posts rather than admitting he was wrong.  With harness, all I asked was to show me "one" credible source that believes CERA is an accurate assessment in rating a catchers worth.  There is no research involved because it doesn't exist.  harness trying to convince everyone CERA works has no merit if the experts don't even feel its worth using. 

    Again bean, I don't think Tek is overrated at calling a great game. 
    Why you feel as you do about this debate is your business but false.  I do however feel the respect Tek gets from our staff would be much less outside of Boston because he has been here for 15 years.  My intent was to prove any catcher can win a WS.  moon claimed most teams who have won a WC had good defensive catchers who could call a good game which I proved was incorrect.  These are very simple/reasonable requests both harness and moon would call any fan out on if the roles were reversed. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    Oh yeah. I never gave you a source.
    Moon doesn't own up to his statements.
    And
    Bean has you falsely pegged.

    Whatever you sayYaleman.

    And Theo wanted Hanley out of town.
    And those who live outside of New England get poor media feeds.

    Keep it coming, chump.
     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]Oh yeah. I never gave you a source. Moon doesn't own up to his statements. And Bean has you falsely pegged. Whatever you say Yaleman. And Theo wanted Hanley out of town. And those who live outside of New England get poor media feeds. Keep it coming, chump.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Question #1 - Does anyone on our board recall a credible source that harness has supplied you with that proves CERA is a respected way of determining a catchers worth? 

    If so what is this source?  Since harness refuses to give it to me but claims he has.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    What is this thing you call "CERA"? Yes moon has admitted to being wrong.... who is this harness  fellow you ask of?
     
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    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]What is this thing you call "CERA"? Yes moon has admitted to being wrong.... who is this harness  fellow you ask of?
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Read above posts Burrito, I was calling moon and harness out on statements they made just like they do with everyone else. 
    CERA is what one person tried to convince the baseball world works as a way to determine a catchers rating/worth.  harness is an idiot who tries to do the same with our fans, even though no credible source has ever supported CERA fully because it has so many flaws. 

    harness says he lives in Seattle yet also tries to be an expert on the Fenway "venue" factor by using it as a primary reason for Lackeys mediocre pitching since swapping to the East Coast, despite it not affecting Beckett and many others in the same way.  When asked to explain he just gives you more garbage instead of an answer.  He uses these theories to prove his useless points while correcting ones spelling, name calling and bashing fans because he has no answer for their question.

    You know harness, but I understand why you choose not to.  Funny :) 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    In Response to Re: Last nights game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last nights game : Read above posts Burrito, I was calling moon and harness out on statements they made just like they do with everyone else.  CERA is what one person tried to convince the baseball world works as a way to determine a catchers rating/worth.  harness is an idiotwho tries to do the same with our fans, even though no credible source has ever supported CERA fully because it has so many flaws.  harness says he lives in Seattle yet also tries to be an expert on the Fenway "venue" factor by using it as a primary reason for Lackeys mediocre pitching since swapping to the East Coast, despite it not affecting Beckett and many others in the same way.  When asked to explain he just gives you more garbage instead of an answer.  He uses these theories to prove his useless points while correcting ones spelling, name calling and bashing fans because he has no answer for their question. You know harness, but I understand why you choose not to.  Funny :) 
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]


    Well, now that you contradict yourself yet again and choose this path: You get dumber with each post. I'm well acquainted with Fenway, you dumbazz.
    I lived around Boston for years. You claim to live in CT.

    Beckett gave up 36 dingers to a tune of a 5.00 ERA in his initial year in Boston. In 2007, his ERA was near twice at Fenway as it was on the road. He's learned to use the park to his advantage over the second half of his Boston tenure.

    You are as ignorant about him as you are about a catcher's relevance, venue, climate effect, or Theo. Keep spreading the lies. That's what UR good at. That's what UR audience in Burrito baits for.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Last nights game

    Last nights game was much like the night before but this time we made our hits count, Jacoby and Jason did a great jub.  Josh wasn't his normal dominating self but still hung in well enough to grab the win.

    I expect tonights game to go much the same, hopefully with finish 2.5 games up NY.  I'm very comfortable moving, our players realize they can hit any Yankee starter and have good succes.  This could be a nice advantage if we meet in the PS.
     

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