Leaving Bard in there

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dublin_Sox. Show Dublin_Sox's posts

    Leaving Bard in there

    If Tito had done that this entire board would be calling for his head. If BV couldnt see Bard had nothing left there he needs new glasses. 
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from udontnojack. Show udontnojack's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    In Response to Re: Leaving Bard in there:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Leaving Bard in there : valid but you had time to create this thread when he was being left in....why did you wait until after the result to complain? If Bard would have had a 1-2-3 inning would you have created this thread? Of course not. You lose credibility when you do it this way
    Posted by thepeskypole6[/QUOTE]

    we'll watch for your early posts telling bobby v what to do in advance.
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from 15315k. Show 15315k's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    Maybe but Bard looked decent today other than the walks. If he keeps improving he's going to be a solid starter. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    Bard should have been done after the Jennings single.  It was clear to everyone except the guy making the decision.  This is one of the concerns with Bobby, his desire to prove he is smarter than the room, then the room turns out to be right but it only makes Bobby dig in deeper. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    A bad call in retrospect--you know, 20-20 hindsight--but Bard had already struck out Longoria twice. 

    We do know this for certain.  If Bard had struck out Longoria, there would have been nary a peep from the OTFB.  There is a certain element that exists only to second guess the manager whoever he is. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from berkshirepatsfan. Show berkshirepatsfan's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    In Response to Re: Leaving Bard in there:
    [QUOTE]A bad call in retrospect--you know, 20-20 hindsight--but Bard had already struck out Longoria twice.  We do know this for certain.  If Bard had struck out Longoria, there would have been nary a peep from the OTFB.  There is a certain element that exists only to second guess the manager whoever he is. 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    In Response to Re: Leaving Bard in there:
    [QUOTE]A bad call in retrospect--you know, 20-20 hindsight--but Bard had already struck out Longoria twice.  We do know this for certain.  If Bard had struck out Longoria, there would have been nary a peep from the OTFB.  There is a certain element that exists only to second guess the manager whoever he is. 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

    On the game thread there was an overwhelming consensus that Bard should not have been in the game to face Pena or Longoria, so 20-20 hingsight, it is not.

    Most people realized it was a mistake to leave Bard in the game in real time, that is not second guessing, that is first guessing.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from berkshirepatsfan. Show berkshirepatsfan's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    At 80+ degrees and his second start, Bard should have been removed no later than 1st and 2nd.  The confidence that had been growing in the bullpen the last few days could (obviously we wouldn't know the outcome) have continued to surge and Bard would have recorded a very nice first win.  Maybe BV was being too sensitive after his Youk comments. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    It's the only way to see how a player will react in that situation.  Maybe he wanted to see if Bard could dig down into a reserve. 

    I personally thought he should relieve Bard after pitching to Pena, but I can understand challenging Bard to rise to the occassion.  Not that I agree, but I can see the logic behind it.

    Either that or Bobby V. isn't as mentally or emotionally into the game as he has been in the past.  Maybe he was mentally tired for dealing with the medea sh1tstorm he created.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    It was pretty apparent that Bard was finished. No way he should have pitched to Pena and Longoria.  Definitely on the manager.   On the plus side , if Bard could improve his control , he has the stuff to be a big time starter.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TBINFL. Show TBINFL's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    But I thought that bubby v is one of the best in game managers there is?

    Oh wait, that's right, that was what bubby v thinks about himself!!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    THERE WAS NO HARM DONE IN LEAVING BARD IN THERE.
    YES, HE WAS TIRING, BUT BOBBY MADE THE RIGHT DECISION
    IN LIFTING HIM AFTER THE LONGORIA WALK. I GUESS HE
    JUST WANTED TO SEE WHAT KIND OF A PITCHER BARD WAS..
    ACTUALLY....IT WAS A PLUS FOR THE RED SOX....WE HAVE
    OURSELVES A GOOD STARTER. BARD WILL REFINE HIS
    PERFORMANCES AND GET BETTER. SHIELDS WAS OUTSTANDING,
    THE REAL HARM IS KEEPING MC DONALD, PUNTO AND
    SALTALAMACCHIA ON THIS SQUAD. THEY ARE ALL AAA
    PLAYERS, TALENT WISE. THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE CANNOT
    REPLACE SALTY...AND THAT IS AN ISSUE. OBVIOUSLY, THE
    FO FEELS THAT LAVARNWAY IS NOT READY. SHOPPACH
    IS OK AS A BACKUP, I GUESS, BUT SALTY AS THE PRIMARY
    CATCHER IS A DISASTER. THE MAN CANNOT HIT. IT'S AS
    SIMPLE AS THAT. AND FOR THAT REASON, THE CLUB SHOULD
    LOOK FOR A LIVE BODY WHO CAN PROVIDE SOME OFFENSE
    BEHIND THE PLACE. SALTY IS JUST AN AUTOMATIC OUT
    AT THIS POINT AS ARE PUNTO AND MC DONALD. YOU CAN'T
    GIVE UP 8-10 OUTS A GAME AND HOPE TO COMPETE.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    The "leaving Bard in there" argument also depends on the likelihood that the Sox would have scored.  Last time I checked, they scored 0 runs in 9 innings.  This loss is on the hitters at least as much as it is on the manager's leaving Bard in the game for Longoria who, by the way, struck out twice earlier in the game. 

    I happen to agree it would have been better to take Bard out earlier, but I do not think it was that clear cut a decision. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    Ironically this situation was fodder for both sides of the Bard Starting argument....clearly this start showed that Bard can be an effective Starter, but it also showed, at least for now we do not have a guy in the Bullpen who we trust implicitly to get that 3rd out in a Bases loaded situation. If Bard had been in the pen....with another starter, he surely would have been brought in to face Longoria....I guess if Bailey was healthy and Ace wasnt the closer, then possibly he would have been brought in, but who else would we really want out of our pen to face Longoria in the 7th...rather than Bard. I think an Argument could be made that Morales could have faced Pena, but I do not know if he was available to pitcha 3rd day in a row. Our pen right now is a big question mark for Bobby V.....which is probably why he thought Bard was his best option.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    In Response to Re: Leaving Bard in there:
    [QUOTE]Ironically this situation was fodder for both sides of the Bard Starting argument....clearly this start showed that Bard can be an effective Starter, but it also showed, at least for now we do not have a guy in the Bullpen who we trust implicitly to get that 3rd out in a Bases loaded situation.
    Posted by tomnev[/QUOTE]

    Disagree.  Thomas came in and got Scott with the bases loaded, if he was brought in to face Pena it would have been 1st and 2nd.  Bard showed today why, regardless of who is in the bullpen, his potential value as a starter far exceeds his potential value as a relief pitcher. 

    I get the mentality of Bobby in that situation, he wants to give his starter a chance to bear down and get that tough out but when it is Bard's 2nd start, he is over 100 pitches and it is 80+ degrees out, common sense needs to take over.
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    I know that, ultimately, it is the manager's call.  But, before the last at-bat, Valentine and McClure had a clear meeting of the minds.  It was a mutual decision to put the game in Bard's hand there.  I respect McClure.  It was a mistake not to pull him and many of us were saying that prior to the last 4 pitch walk.  But, on the other side of the coin, I have a certain respect for Valentine and McClure for placing value on trial by fire.  It cost the game, and, in that way, it was a mistake.  And it was clear Bard had nothing left, least of all his control.  But, I have less of a problem with a mistake like that if it is for the benefit of competitive learning process.  It is a loss today.  But, perhaps it pays dividends for Bard, as a starter-in-progress, down the road.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    Peter Abraham pointed out that in his first start Bard kicked up a big fuss when he was removed from the game.  This time the pitching coach went out to talk to him with Longoria coming to the plate.  What do you want to bet Bard said he could get him out?  

    Next Bobby won't have a problem removing Bard without all the griping. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    In Response to Re: Leaving Bard in there:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Leaving Bard in there : These, You have every right to question Bobby. I just scrolled through the game thread and you wanted Bard out of the game before the negative result . Space also was on board early with that decision. I just can't stand the people who complain after the fact but never would if Bard had struck out Longoria. I think Bobby's philosophy is to trust his starters to get big outs deeper into the games than the typical manager. I actually like that approach more than the quick hook and burning out your bullpen. It didnt work today, then again the Sox never scored a run so it wouldn't have mattered. It does make for a great debate though  
    Posted by thepeskypole6[/QUOTE]

    Hey thanks for actually taking the time to get accurate info and then offering a thoughtful repsonse.  For real.

    I agree with you, I too like the approach/philosophy of trusting the starter and of letting your starters get those tough late game outs but sometimes the writing is just on the wall.  Today, it seemed like the writing was on the wall but Bobby V is a stubborn guy, today it burned us.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    In Response to Re: Leaving Bard in there:
    [QUOTE]Peter Abraham pointed out that in his first start Bard kicked up a big fuss when he was removed from the game.  This time the pitching coach went out to talk to him with Longoria coming to the plate.  What do you want to bet Bard said he could get him out?   Next Bobby won't have a problem removing Bard without all the griping. 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

    No starter wants to come out of the game.  It is the managers job to tell Bard "You pitched a great game, now quit crying and give me the ball."
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    maybe they are just stretching him further out...early in season...
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    In Response to Re: Leaving Bard in there:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Leaving Bard in there : Disagree.  Thomas came in and got Scott with the bases loaded, if he was brought in to face Pena it would have been 1st and 2nd.  Bard showed today why, regardless of who is in the bullpen, his potential value as a starter far exceeds his potential value as a relief pitcher.  I get the mentality of Bobby in that situation, he wants to give his starter a chance to bear down and get that tough out but when it is Bard's 2nd start, he is over 100 pitches and it is 80+ degrees out, common sense needs to take over.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    I wasnt originally taking a side in the argument, just givng both points of view, so not sure what you are disagreeing with.....but to take one now, You do not believe that if another starter was on the mound and Bard was in the pen that Bobby would have thought differently and brought in Bard to face Longoria? I really don't don;t think Bobby was thinking of Bard is learning to bear down as much as he didnt have a better option to face Longoria in our Pen. And despite how Thomas did against Scott, he hasnt earned Bobby's trust to match in against Pena either....as i said if Morales was available I think you would have saw him there. I am glad that as was pointed out you are not second guessing but assuming Bobby didnt use Thomas for pena, who would you have brought in to face Longoria?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Leaving Bard in there

    I wasn't where I could post when the game was going on, but I thought Bard should have been taken out after two batters were on and Pena was coming up. His pitch count was over 100, which he hasn't reached in years, and you could tell that he was laboring to find the strike zone.

    I have often posted that I'd like to see managers give starters a bit more rope to push them and get out of these jams, although I'm talking about experienced starters, not a guy who started his second game in a few years. 

    Still when he left Bard in, I said, OK -- he's doing that, let's see what Bard does. When he walked Pena like he did and was up to 107 pitches and clearly couldn't find the strike zone, then at that point it should have been a no-brainer.

    But the OP was right. EVeryone who has been on this board the last couple of years know exactly what this board would have been like had Francona still was managing. Posters like 1941 and geo would be tripping over themselves with the 'coma' posts and threads.
     
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