Lester for Wil Myers?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I'd love to get Myers, but opening another hole at our biggest area of need, SP, is not going to help us. Now, if we coupled this move with a trade for Brett Anderson and a couple of FA signings, then maybe it's worth a longer look.




    Exactly Moon...Lester, if he works hard at it, could become a serviceable #4 or 5 SP in the rotation. He will never be a #1, 2, or 3 again, most likely, but the bottom end of the rotation also has to have pitchers in it, and we need depth there. A team whose pitching is as bad as ours is should not be trading away starting pitching for position player prospects.




    I think some people are seriously undervaluing Lester...it's one thing to say he had a really bad year and may or may not return to form, but to relegate him permanently, at age 28, to bottom of the rotation filler status ("if he works hard at it") is another. Amazing that the Royals would want to give up one of the best prospects in baseball for such a pitcher.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I'd love to get Myers, but opening another hole at our biggest area of need, SP, is not going to help us. Now, if we coupled this move with a trade for Brett Anderson and a couple of FA signings, then maybe it's worth a longer look.




    Exactly Moon...Lester, if he works hard at it, could become a serviceable #4 or 5 SP in the rotation. He will never be a #1, 2, or 3 again, most likely, but the bottom end of the rotation also has to have pitchers in it, and we need depth there. A team whose pitching is as bad as ours is should not be trading away starting pitching for position player prospects.



    Jon Lester is 28 years old.  He is coming off one down season, a season in which he finished strong over his last 13 starts and he is being reunited with a pitching coach whom he flourished under.  I'm not saying I wouldn't consider trading him for Myers.  With a little more information, I probably would, but to say he can be a "servicable 4 or 5 starter with hard work" is ridiculous. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    I'm going to go on record and say that I'd rather empty the farm for Stanton than flip Lester for Myers.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I'd love to get Myers, but opening another hole at our biggest area of need, SP, is not going to help us. Now, if we coupled this move with a trade for Brett Anderson and a couple of FA signings, then maybe it's worth a longer look.




    Exactly Moon...Lester, if he works hard at it, could become a serviceable #4 or 5 SP in the rotation. He will never be a #1, 2, or 3 again, most likely, but the bottom end of the rotation also has to have pitchers in it, and we need depth there. A team whose pitching is as bad as ours is should not be trading away starting pitching for position player prospects.



    Jon Lester is 28 years old.  He is coming off one down season, a season in which he finished strong over his last 13 starts and he is being reunited with a pitching coach whom he flourished under.  I'm not saying I wouldn't consider trading him for Myers.  With a little more information, I probably would, but to say he can be a "servicable 4 or 5 starter with hard work" is ridiculous. 




    What is ridiculous is thinking that Lester has the talent to return to his previous form. He sucked for an entire year-more than that if you count Sept 2011. How much more time would you like to give him? Another five years? Read this if you want to know why I am so down on Lester:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/whats-wrong-with-jon-lester/

    When a pitcher's fastball begins losing velocity he rarely regains it. That makes the velocity difference between his off speed pitches and his fastball a lower number. Batters can zero in on that kind of stuff unless a pitcher's location is pinpoint, and Lester does not have that kind of control. Hey-we still need bottom of the rotation pitchers, and I would rather have Lester there than Lackey. And I would rather have Lester than Matsusaka or Cook to fill in the bottom of our rotation. If you are going to contend you need great pitching and Lester is not a great pitcher any more. Nor, IMO, will he ever be.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

     

    I wonder what Lester is thinking,........

    Lester: "Ahhhh four-letter-"S"-word.  Kansas City of all places?!?"  

     



    Kansas City isnt a terrible place to play.  Historic franchise.  Beautiful Stadium.  Low pressure.  Easy going and friendly fanbase.  Interested fanbase.



    You are so right. Fan friendly with very little pressure . Nice place to play and not have to deal with the Boston ZOO.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    The huge problem I have with the trade Lester now crowd is that if they are correct and Lester's 2012 is now his normal performance level, surely most/every GM knows that too particularly as they have far more resources to scout and evaluate players than guys on the internet....so we'd get little in return for him.


    If they are wrong, and he returns to/near his previous 4 seasons, we are selling very low on a stud lefty starter in his 20s.


    So the only way that would make sense is if the trade Lester now crowd here knows something every professional GM does not and we trade Lester for huge value even though he has lost it forever.

    (the shorthand for the above is "Salty svcks!  Let's trade him while he still has lots of value!"

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackbu. Show jackbu's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    I'm going to go on record and say that I'd rather empty the farm for Stanton than flip Lester for Myers.




    I will also go on record and say lester pitches here next season.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I'd love to get Myers, but opening another hole at our biggest area of need, SP, is not going to help us. Now, if we coupled this move with a trade for Brett Anderson and a couple of FA signings, then maybe it's worth a longer look.




    Exactly Moon...Lester, if he works hard at it, could become a serviceable #4 or 5 SP in the rotation. He will never be a #1, 2, or 3 again, most likely, but the bottom end of the rotation also has to have pitchers in it, and we need depth there. A team whose pitching is as bad as ours is should not be trading away starting pitching for position player prospects.



    Jon Lester is 28 years old.  He is coming off one down season, a season in which he finished strong over his last 13 starts and he is being reunited with a pitching coach whom he flourished under.  I'm not saying I wouldn't consider trading him for Myers.  With a little more information, I probably would, but to say he can be a "servicable 4 or 5 starter with hard work" is ridiculous. 




    What is ridiculous is thinking that Lester has the talent to return to his previous form. He sucked for an entire year-more than that if you count Sept 2011. How much more time would you like to give him? Another five years? Read this if you want to know why I am so down on Lester:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/whats-wrong-with-jon-lester/

    When a pitcher's fastball begins losing velocity he rarely regains it. That makes the velocity difference between his off speed pitches and his fastball a lower number. Batters can zero in on that kind of stuff unless a pitcher's location is pinpoint, and Lester does not have that kind of control. Hey-we still need bottom of the rotation pitchers, and I would rather have Lester there than Lackey. And I would rather have Lester than Matsusaka or Cook to fill in the bottom of our rotation. If you are going to contend you need great pitching and Lester is not a great pitcher any more. Nor, IMO, will he ever be.



    Ironically, that Fangraphs article was written the day after Valentine left Lester in a game to get his t*ts ripped for 11 runs in 4 innings.  His next start after that was the first of his last 13 where he finished strong.  He had a mechanical flaw (which Farrell said he noticed early last season in a game against Toronto) that caused him to lose his control, which was causing him to try to steer the ball instead of just throwing.  Either way, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in baseball who now considers him a "back of the rotation guy" at 28, after one bad season. Some people may even think he's a strong candidate for a big rebound season.  I'll guess we'll see...

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    Ironically, that Fangraphs article was written the day after Valentine left Lester in a game to get his t*ts ripped for 11 runs in 4 innings. His next start after that was the first of his last 13 where he finished strong. He had a mechanical flaw (which Farrell said he noticed early last season in a game against Toronto) that caused him to lose his control, which was causing him to try to steer the ball instead of just throwing. Either way, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in baseball who now considers him a "back of the rotation guy" at 28, after one bad season. Some people may even think he's a strong candidate for a big rebound season. I'll guess we'll see...

    Fair enough. He is probably not going anywhere anyway. I could see delaying judgement on him until after three months into next season, but not longer than that. He did finish with an ERA of 3.92 over his last 13 starts, so that a positive. Hey-don't get me wrong here. I sure hope he has a big rebound season and can contribute for years to come, but I have serious doubts about it. Like I said, once a pitcher starts losing fastball velocity he rarely regains it and the results are generally not good.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    Myers just had one break out season.  We can't give up our ace for him.  We have to get solid SP prospect in return as well.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SleeStack1. Show SleeStack1's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    What will two seasons of a successfully rebounded Lester do for the Sox?

    Will it make a difference in 2013?  Probably not.  In 2014?  Maybe. 

    For 2015, the Sox can go ahead and sign Lester for the same whether hes in Boston or on another team in 2014.

    What difference will Myers make in 2013?  Probably none.

    In 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018?  There's the kicker.

    I take the risk for the positive possibility (and low salary) for multiple seasons over a Lester difference maker in only one potential season.

    Risk, reward.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    i asume this kid is the real thing....but doesnt the trade of a front line pitcher with lester's pedigree usually cost a few prospects? granted Jon had a bad season last yr but then again, who didnt?

    and if Ben pulls the trigger on this, that means he has to trade either Ells, Salty or combo of to fill inbthe gaps....

     

    im thinking no...but i have no idea if this kid is that good....intriuging though

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    this kid is another Xander Bogaerts.....who wouldn't trade a fringe ace who has been declining every year (hasn't pitched like an ace for 2 years)for a middle of the order cost controlled 21 year old bat?

     

    If we have two legitimatemiddle of the order bats under cost we have the money to go out and buy the next $20+ pitcher in a year or two. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    actually by most accounts Myers is a better prospect than Xander.  If there was a Jon Lester on another team and someone suggested trading Xander for Lester.......no one would want to bank that bat on declining aged talent. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    this kid is another Xander Bogaerts.....who wouldn't trade a fringe ace who has been declining every year (hasn't pitched like an ace for 2 years)for a middle of the order cost controlled 21 year old bat?

     

    If we have two legitimatemiddle of the order bats under cost we have the money to go out and buy the next $20+ pitcher in a year or two. 


    you make good sense...keep talking...

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to SleeStack1's comment:

    What will two seasons of a successfully rebounded Lester do for the Sox?

    Will it make a difference in 2013?  Probably not.  In 2014?  Maybe. 

    For 2015, the Sox can go ahead and sign Lester for the same whether hes in Boston or on another team in 2014.

    What difference will Myers make in 2013?  Probably none.

    In 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018?  There's the kicker.

    I take the risk for the positive possibility (and low salary) for multiple seasons over a Lester difference maker in only one potential season.

    Risk, reward.



    I agree but only if Myers will be an above average defender in RF.

    Abrahams " Scouting reports call him a below-average defender. He'd be passable in the majors at best. He has 29 stolen bases and 12 triples in four seasons.

    This is not an athletic freak like Mike Trout or Bryce Harper. This is a corner outfielder with great power. That's a very good piece but it may not be a piece you change your franchise for."

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    To me it's this simple.  The Sox had one of the worst pitching staffs in MLB in 2012, on top of which they let AGon go to the Dodgers so they could also dump the salaries of Crawford and Beckett.  Those moves make absolutely no sense if the Sox use the salary room to acquire outfielders, especially if acquiring another outfielder means coughing up a good starter.  Madness. 

    Lester had a bad year, but he is only 28, so I am not buying he is over the hill.  His fastball in 2012 was .6 mph slower than it was 2011--that's nuisance value.  As Abraham points out, Lester has had three pitching coaches in two years, none of them any good, and he has probably had less than stellar pitch-callers behind the plate. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    The Red Sox nearly drafted Wil Myers in 2009, according to this report from WEEI's Alex Speier:

    http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2012/11/27/how-wil-myers-almost-became-a-red-sox-in-2009/

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I'd love to get Myers, but opening another hole at our biggest area of need, SP, is not going to help us. Now, if we coupled this move with a trade for Brett Anderson and a couple of FA signings, then maybe it's worth a longer look.




         Sox should make this Lester trade in a NY minute, if KC is willing. With or without Lester, this team is far from being a contender. It's time to rebuild.

         One more thing...please, Ben...don't delve into the free agent pool. Go Oakland A's for the next few years, and build through the farm system. The entire Sox pitching staff needs to be overhauled. Once you have a solid core of home grown regulars, only then consider making any big expenditures. We don't need any more Carl Crawfords for $20mil. per year, for 7 years. We also don't need to spend ridiculously on 32 year old head-case, Josh Hamilton. Let the Yankees have him. How's that ridiculous A-Rod deal looking these days, for the pinstripes?      

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    Does anyone trust Ben with doing a deal like this with the trades he has made over the last year? I do not plus the kid (Myers) is a highly touted player who cannot miss. Remember Andy Marte was a highly touted power hitter who could not hit his weight with Cleveland and we gave up Renteria for him. Why is Kansas City looking to trade him ? Forgive me but I am suspicious of a player Kansas City is looking to trade  who has not played in the majors. They build up the hype on a player and then major league teams come knocking. Isnt this kids stats from the Pacific Coast League where they have hitters parks and play in thin air climates?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to AL34's comment:

    Does anyone trust Ben with doing a deal like this with the trades he has made over the last year? I do not plus the kid (Myers) is a highly touted player who cannot miss. Remember Andy Marte was a highly touted power hitter who could not hit his weight with Cleveland and we gave up Renteria for him. Why is Kansas City looking to trade him ? Forgive me but I am suspicious of a player Kansas City is looking to trade  who has not played in the majors. They build up the hype on a player and then major league teams come knocking. Isnt this kids stats from the Pacific Coast League where they have hitters parks and play in thin air climates?



    Ben has been in the Sox Front Office for 15 years, during arguably the most successful run in franchise history.  He's hardly a "novice." By the way, the Boston Red Sox, like most "billion dollar corporations," receive input from as many as 40 or 50 people when deciding whether or not to make a big move.  It's not Ben Cherington sitting in a cubicle playing "Fantasy baseball," like some people seem to think. 

    For example, you can thank John Farrell for the Sox not pulling the trigger on the Johan Santana trade when he was with the Twins.  The package included a combination of 2 out of Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury and 2 other prospects, which included Masterson, Hagadone and others.  Farrell was adamant that Lester would be better than Santana, and sooner rather than later, and convinced the Front Office to squish the deal.  He was right...

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to AL34's comment:

    Does anyone trust Ben with doing a deal like this with the trades he has made over the last year? I do not plus the kid (Myers) is a highly touted player who cannot miss. Remember Andy Marte was a highly touted power hitter who could not hit his weight with Cleveland and we gave up Renteria for him. Why is Kansas City looking to trade him ? Forgive me but I am suspicious of a player Kansas City is looking to trade  who has not played in the majors. They build up the hype on a player and then major league teams come knocking. Isnt this kids stats from the Pacific Coast League where they have hitters parks and play in thin air climates?



         Good point about Andy Marte...and there have been others (Ben Grieve, Ted Cox). But, there's also been your Jeff Bagwells. The Sox scouts should know better than we. If this Meyers kid is potentially an Evan Longoria type hitter...or going back a few years, a Tony Conigliaro, take the chance. The Sox badly need a middle of the order, rbi-producing right-handed bat.

         Lester is coming off a poor season, is 29, and is due to command big money. In two years, at age 31, he'll be on the markey. When he's 31, he won't be worth a huge contract. Lester is a good pitcher, but I don't view him as a dominant ace...such as a Pedro Martinez, or a Verlander.   

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    For example, you can thank John Farrell for the Sox not pulling the trigger on the Johan Santana trade when he was with the Twins.  The package included a combination of 2 out of Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury and 2 other prospects, which included Masterson, Hagadone and others.  Farrell was adamant that Lester would be better than Santana, and sooner rather than later, and convinced the Front Office to squish the deal.  He was right...


    For what it's worth, Jon Lester is the same age today that Johan Santana was when the Twins traded Santana to the Mets. Since the trade, the Mets have made no postseason appearances, the Twins two (the last in 2010) and the Red Sox two (the last in 2009).

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    sign grienke and get it over with....we have lots of spare money and the guy is not yet 30...and theres always a place somewhere for a pitcher who stinks it up in case the worst happens and he is a bust....

     

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Lester for Wil Myers?

    In response to georom4's comment:

    sign grienke and get it over with....we have lots of spare money and the guy is not yet 30...and theres always a place somewhere for a pitcher who stinks it up in case the worst happens and he is a bust....

     

     



    geo, will you bash Ben if Greinke underperforms? (with our without being on our team)

     
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