lester looks like crap tonite.

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

    "Not true. Lester is a serviceable #3-4 SP. He is not a #1 at all. Tonight proved it"

    Small sample size alert!

    I happen to think Lester is a very solid number 3 starter myself, but to delude yourself into thinking one start confirms  that one way or the other is absurd. 

    The Sox can go a pretty long way if their starting pitchers stay healthy. Buch is an ace if he stays healthy. Given his frailty I'd rather have him as a number 2 but we can live with him as number one for now. 

    That means Lester doesn't need to be number one, he just has to over achieve and be a number two. 

    And if Lackey overachieves in his spot...

    Oh that's right, I forgot that the season is over according to you

       



    Yes, last night's game was a small sample size. Here are some additional facts about Lester's performance so far this year. In his first four starts his ERA was 1.73. Over his next nine starts it is 4.42, about where I expect he will finish the season (or slightly higher). Its entirely possible that Lackey will end up with a better ERA than Lester this year. Lester is simply not that good any more-at best a #3 SP. It would be a mistake for anyone to expect him to perform better than that.

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Lester's career numbers establish him as a solid #2.  The average fan just can't be bothered looking up what the average numbers for a #2 are.




    Lester WAS a TOTR SP from 2008 to 2011. Last year he was horrible, and so far this year he has been good, but not a TOTR pitcher. His ERA is climbing, as I mentioned on another thread, from 1.73 over his first four starts to 4.42 over his next nine. IMO his final ERA will be between 4.20 and 4.40-hardly a #1 or #2 SP for an ostensibly contending team.

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    Era is a bad stat based on its own. Two bad games can raise the era to a bad level. Last year Clay before AS game had a +6 era but had the most wins.

    you need to look at every game, run support, everything as a package. If he continues as is they will get 15 Ws and a 3.50 or so era. Lastly one other stat the RS have won 9 of his 13stats which IMHO is a very good thing. BTW last night was a pitching staff W not a one pitcher W.

    Love the Red Sox and enjoy the ride every year.

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to stan17's comment:

     


    The frustrating thing about Lester is we all know he has the ability to be a #1.

     



    Not true. Lester is a serviceable #3-4 SP. He is not a #1 at all. Tonight proved it. ERA 4.50. Not a great effort when we needed a great effort.

     



    Hey fool I said he has the ABILITY to be a #1 not that he was one, your clearly not a #1 reader.  

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    I am glad people are leaping to Lester's defense, but I still agree with the OP and with the comments that this year he is slipping a little.  Not from last year because he has in fact improved a ton from last year's disaster.  But from the reason why Farrell announced that Lester would pitch opening day.  He got off to a great start, but has been backsliding. 

    I think his fastball is fine, but he over-relies on it, especially in the early innings.  You can get away with that if you are throwing hard and, more importantly, hitting your spots.  One of the greatest lefties ever was Sandy Koufax, and I saw him pitch once in Philly when I was in college.  Great fastball, but also a curve that dropped off the table.  These days the breaking ball most lefties rely on is the changeup, because it breaks down and away from righty hitters.  Lester has one, but rarely throws it early in a game, and I think that just makes it easier on opposing batters.  Breaking pitches and fast balls mutually reinforce each other. 

    When Beckett first joined the Sox in 2006, he was the guy who beat the Yankees in the 2003 WS.  He had a blazing fastball that went 97 mph almost anytime he wanted to do so.  The problem was that's about all the threw, and opposing hitters grew to love his blazing fastball almost as much as Josh did.  Result:  his ERA that season was over 5.  In 2007 he got smart and mixed his pitches up more, and I think finished 2d in the Cy Young voting, to say nothing of helping to win the 2007 WS.

     

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    Not over using it looking t his pitches he uses the cutter and FB the same amount sometimes slightly more over the other from game to game. 

    Love the Red Sox and enjoy the ride every year.

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    he toughed it out at least against a very powerful team....that is worth something

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to stan17's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

    In response to stan17's comment:

     


    The frustrating thing about Lester is we all know he has the ability to be a #1.

     



    Not true. Lester is a serviceable #3-4 SP. He is not a #1 at all. Tonight proved it. ERA 4.50. Not a great effort when we needed a great effort.

     

     

     



    Hey fool I said he has the ABILITY to be a #1 not that he was one, your clearly not a #1 reader.  

     

     



    Who the hell cares if he has the ABILITY to be a #1 if he is pitching like a #3? How idiotic. I suppose you will be happier if he promises to pitch like a #1 from how on too, right? Its R-E-S-U-L-T-S that count. Not ability....not potential....just RESULTS. Sad that I have to explain this to you. Besides, who of any repute whatsoever says he even has that ability any more? You? Look at his results.....fool.

     

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to soxyjim's comment:

    lots of pitches with 3 runs already.he looks burned out.




    Something is not right... Takes forever to deliver a pitch.. Not sure , but could he be aiming the ball instead of throwing it? Maybe he should watch tapes of LEE and see how he speeds things up. No wasted delivery there.

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Lester's career numbers establish him as a solid #2.  The average fan just can't be bothered looking up what the average numbers for a #2 are.

     




    Lester WAS a TOTR SP from 2008 to 2011. Last year he was horrible, and so far this year he has been good, but not a TOTR pitcher. His ERA is climbing, as I mentioned on another thread, from 1.73 over his first four starts to 4.42 over his next nine. IMO his final ERA will be between 4.20 and 4.40-hardly a #1 or #2 SP for an ostensibly contending team.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Lester is 6-2 with a 3.53 and a 1.188 WHIP right now. That is a #1 or #2 on most teams. IF he ends up in the mid 4's like you believe, then you will have an arguement and 2 years of stats to back it up. I not sure hes the pitcher he once was, but Im not ready to say hes not a TOTR starter.

    2012 shot his career ERA up from 3.30 to 3.75. If he stays 3.5 or lower with a 1.1 WHIP, thats a very good #2 and even a #1 on some teams.

    We'll have to wait to see what his numbers are at the end of September to make that call. Either way, I exercise the option and then decide if hes worth an extension and for how much, if at all, after the 2014 season.

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    I think it says something that  he gave up 3 ER in 6 IP to one of the best hitting teams in baseball, and that's considered an awful performance.

    As any true baseball person knows, you learn a lot about a pitcher on nights  he doesn't have his best stuff. Lester gutted it out and kept his team in the game.

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Lester's career numbers establish him as a solid #2.  The average fan just can't be bothered looking up what the average numbers for a #2 are.

     

     




    Lester WAS a TOTR SP from 2008 to 2011. Last year he was horrible, and so far this year he has been good, but not a TOTR pitcher. His ERA is climbing, as I mentioned on another thread, from 1.73 over his first four starts to 4.42 over his next nine. IMO his final ERA will be between 4.20 and 4.40-hardly a #1 or #2 SP for an ostensibly contending team.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Lester is 6-2 with a 3.53 and a 1.188 WHIP right now. That is a #1 or #2 on most teams. IF he ends up in the mid 4's like you believe, then you will have an arguement and 2 years of stats to back it up. I not sure hes the pitcher he once was, but Im not ready to say hes not a TOTR starter.

     

    2012 shot his career ERA up from 3.30 to 3.75. If he stays 3.5 or lower with a 1.1 WHIP, thats a very good #2 and even a #1 on some teams.

    We'll have to wait to see what his numbers are at the end of September to make that call. Either way, I exercise the option and then decide if hes worth an extension and for how much, if at all, after the 2014 season.

    [/QUOTE]


    Yup. If he ends up where he is right now I will be thrilled. Thats certainly good for a #2 SP. The trend right now is not good; four good starts, nine mediocre starts. I agree with you that we should resign him; teams need #3 and #4 SP too. He just isn't better than than....IMO. 

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to kannaman's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     


    Lester did his job tonight...two mistakes cost him 3 runs ...and he struggled some but Texas is a pretty good offensive team.

     




    Not an unexpected opinion from you. Are you happy if he had an ERA of 4.50 for the season?

     

    [/QUOTE]


    That's the problem Pumpsie....he doesn't have an ERA of 4.50 for the season....just for the game against Texas....you like to take small sample sizes and try to make them mean something...in this case against one of the best offenses he will see he held them to 3 runs and the Sox ended up winning the game. No other team is getting perfection out of their pitchers and most of them don't have the talent that Lester has...and it's true that he is getting squeezed by the umpires.

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to kannaman's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

    In response to kannaman's comment:

     

     

     


    Lester did his job tonight...two mistakes cost him 3 runs ...and he struggled some but Texas is a pretty good offensive team.

     

     

     




    Not an unexpected opinion from you. Are you happy if he had an ERA of 4.50 for the season?

     

     

     

     




     

     

    That's the problem Pumpsie....he doesn't have an ERA of 4.50 for the season....just for the game against Texas....you like to take small sample sizes and try to make them mean something...in this case against one of the best offenses he will see he held them to 3 runs and the Sox ended up winning the game. No other team is getting perfection out of their pitchers and most of them don't have the talent that Lester has...and it's true that he is getting squeezed by the umpires.



    Actually, the Rangers are not one of the best offenses in the AL this year, surprisingly. They are SEVENTH of the 15 AL teams, quite ordinary. They are surviving on pitching mostly this year. So Lester allowed 3 ER in six innings against what is an pretty ordinary offense so far. In his last start, another big game against the Yankees, he allowed 4 ER in 7 IP for an ingame ERA of 5.14. The Yankees now rank TENTH in runs scored in the AL. Those were two big games against contending teams and Lester was very mediocre at best. Would you be happy with a season ERA of 5.14 or 4.50?
    Finally, don't blame the umps for "squeezing" Lester. The umps have been horrible all year but they didn't single him out. Blaming the umps is a copout. Lester is just not that good any more, even though he pitches for the Red Sox. Its hard to swallow. He WAS very good for several years; that is no longer the case.

     

     

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to kannaman's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

    In response to kannaman's comment:

     

     

     


    Lester did his job tonight...two mistakes cost him 3 runs ...and he struggled some but Texas is a pretty good offensive team.

     

     

     




    Not an unexpected opinion from you. Are you happy if he had an ERA of 4.50 for the season?

     

     

     

     




     

     

    That's the problem Pumpsie....he doesn't have an ERA of 4.50 for the season....just for the game against Texas....you like to take small sample sizes and try to make them mean something...in this case against one of the best offenses he will see he held them to 3 runs and the Sox ended up winning the game. No other team is getting perfection out of their pitchers and most of them don't have the talent that Lester has...and it's true that he is getting squeezed by the umpires.



    Actually, the Rangers are not one of the best offenses in the AL this year, surprisingly. They are SEVENTH of the 15 AL teams, quite ordinary. They are surviving on pitching mostly this year. So Lester allowed 3 ER in six innings against what is an pretty ordinary offense so far. In his last start, another big game against the Yankees, he allowed 4 ER in 7 IP for an ingame ERA of 5.14. The Yankees now rank TENTH in runs scored in the AL. Those were two big games against contending teams and Lester was very mediocre at best. Would you be happy with a season ERA of 5.14 or 4.50?
    Finally, don't blame the umps for "squeezing" Lester. The umps have been horrible all year but they didn't single him out. Blaming the umps is a copout. Lester is just not that good any more, even though he pitches for the Red Sox. Its hard to swallow. He WAS very good for several years; that is no longer the case.

     

     


    Verlander has given up 3 runs to Cleveland in 5 innings so far tonight...that's 5.40....damn he is worse than Lester. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to stats from one game...but I do watch enough to know when a pitcher is getting squeezed...or when someone keeps getting gifts ...Mo has been cleaning up this year...gifts from oppenents and than the umpires have been chipping in too...I don't like it but it's what has been going on. Lester is the least of our worries and if you bothered to look at what other teams #2 or #3 look like you would realize that.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to kannaman's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to kannaman's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

    In response to kannaman's comment:

     

     

     


    Lester did his job tonight...two mistakes cost him 3 runs ...and he struggled some but Texas is a pretty good offensive team.

     

     

     




    Not an unexpected opinion from you. Are you happy if he had an ERA of 4.50 for the season?

     

     

     

     




     

     

    That's the problem Pumpsie....he doesn't have an ERA of 4.50 for the season....just for the game against Texas....you like to take small sample sizes and try to make them mean something...in this case against one of the best offenses he will see he held them to 3 runs and the Sox ended up winning the game. No other team is getting perfection out of their pitchers and most of them don't have the talent that Lester has...and it's true that he is getting squeezed by the umpires.



    Actually, the Rangers are not one of the best offenses in the AL this year, surprisingly. They are SEVENTH of the 15 AL teams, quite ordinary. They are surviving on pitching mostly this year. So Lester allowed 3 ER in six innings against what is an pretty ordinary offense so far. In his last start, another big game against the Yankees, he allowed 4 ER in 7 IP for an ingame ERA of 5.14. The Yankees now rank TENTH in runs scored in the AL. Those were two big games against contending teams and Lester was very mediocre at best. Would you be happy with a season ERA of 5.14 or 4.50?
    Finally, don't blame the umps for "squeezing" Lester. The umps have been horrible all year but they didn't single him out. Blaming the umps is a copout. Lester is just not that good any more, even though he pitches for the Red Sox. Its hard to swallow. He WAS very good for several years; that is no longer the case.

     

     

     


    Verlander has given up 3 runs to Cleveland in 5 innings so far tonight...that's 5.40....damn he is worse than Lester. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to stats from one game...but I do watch enough to know when a pitcher is getting squeezed...or when someone keeps getting gifts ...Mo has been cleaning up this year...gifts from oppenents and than the umpires have been chipping in too...I don't like it but it's what has been going on. Lester is the least of our worries and if you bothered to look at what other teams #2 or #3 look like you would realize that.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Not surprisingly, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Lester is THE KEY to this year. If you and a few others are right and he is going to improve and pitch like a genuine #2 SP then we have a legitimate chance to contend for the playoffs. If he lays an egg this year and pitches like the #3-4 SP I think he is, we are going nowhere. As for single game ERAs, I use them only to evaluate the performance of a pitcher for THAT GAME. It puts a good perspective on things. Oh-and you should do your homework before you make statements like "Texas is one of the best offenses in the league". Try looking at the statistics first.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from kannaman. Show kannaman's posts

    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to kannaman's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to kannaman's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

    In response to kannaman's comment:

     

     

     


    Lester did his job tonight...two mistakes cost him 3 runs ...and he struggled some but Texas is a pretty good offensive team.

     

     

     




    Not an unexpected opinion from you. Are you happy if he had an ERA of 4.50 for the season?

     

     

     

     




     

     

    That's the problem Pumpsie....he doesn't have an ERA of 4.50 for the season....just for the game against Texas....you like to take small sample sizes and try to make them mean something...in this case against one of the best offenses he will see he held them to 3 runs and the Sox ended up winning the game. No other team is getting perfection out of their pitchers and most of them don't have the talent that Lester has...and it's true that he is getting squeezed by the umpires.



    Actually, the Rangers are not one of the best offenses in the AL this year, surprisingly. They are SEVENTH of the 15 AL teams, quite ordinary. They are surviving on pitching mostly this year. So Lester allowed 3 ER in six innings against what is an pretty ordinary offense so far. In his last start, another big game against the Yankees, he allowed 4 ER in 7 IP for an ingame ERA of 5.14. The Yankees now rank TENTH in runs scored in the AL. Those were two big games against contending teams and Lester was very mediocre at best. Would you be happy with a season ERA of 5.14 or 4.50?
    Finally, don't blame the umps for "squeezing" Lester. The umps have been horrible all year but they didn't single him out. Blaming the umps is a copout. Lester is just not that good any more, even though he pitches for the Red Sox. Its hard to swallow. He WAS very good for several years; that is no longer the case.

     

     

     

     


    Verlander has given up 3 runs to Cleveland in 5 innings so far tonight...that's 5.40....damn he is worse than Lester. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to stats from one game...but I do watch enough to know when a pitcher is getting squeezed...or when someone keeps getting gifts ...Mo has been cleaning up this year...gifts from oppenents and than the umpires have been chipping in too...I don't like it but it's what has been going on. Lester is the least of our worries and if you bothered to look at what other teams #2 or #3 look like you would realize that.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Not surprisingly, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Lester is THE KEY to this year. If you and a few others are right and he is going to improve and pitch like a genuine #2 SP then we have a legitimate chance to contend for the playoffs. If he lays an egg this year and pitches like the #3-4 SP I think he is, we are going nowhere. As for single game ERAs, I use them only to evaluate the performance of a pitcher for THAT GAME. It puts a good perspective on things. Oh-and you should do your homework before you make statements like "Texas is one of the best offenses in the league". Try looking at the statistics first.

     

    [/QUOTE]
    You should apply that thinking to your own statements...Texas is in first place in their division and it isn't solely because of their pitching...beyond Holland and Darvish it just really isn't that good...they also get to beat up on Houston and Seattle pretty regular. Any team that has Beltre, Cruz, Berkman, Murphy and Andrus is probably going to do pretty well. You make a big deal out of Lester giving up 4 runs to the Yankees...2 scored on a fly ball that Bradley didn't catch because he was playing to shallow...is that on Lester or Bradley...the other 2 runs in that game came from soft hits...swinging bunt and a little flare by Suzuki...it wasn't like they were hitting shots off Lester...in other words the yankees got lucky...in the offensive end of things in that game....and Sabathia pitched really well...the best game of the year for him so far.

     
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    Re: lester looks like crap tonite.

    In response to kannaman's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to kannaman's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to kannaman's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

    In response to kannaman's comment:

     

     

     


    Lester did his job tonight...two mistakes cost him 3 runs ...and he struggled some but Texas is a pretty good offensive team.

     

     

     




    Not an unexpected opinion from you. Are you happy if he had an ERA of 4.50 for the season?

     

     

     

     




     

     

    That's the problem Pumpsie....he doesn't have an ERA of 4.50 for the season....just for the game against Texas....you like to take small sample sizes and try to make them mean something...in this case against one of the best offenses he will see he held them to 3 runs and the Sox ended up winning the game. No other team is getting perfection out of their pitchers and most of them don't have the talent that Lester has...and it's true that he is getting squeezed by the umpires.



    Actually, the Rangers are not one of the best offenses in the AL this year, surprisingly. They are SEVENTH of the 15 AL teams, quite ordinary. They are surviving on pitching mostly this year. So Lester allowed 3 ER in six innings against what is an pretty ordinary offense so far. In his last start, another big game against the Yankees, he allowed 4 ER in 7 IP for an ingame ERA of 5.14. The Yankees now rank TENTH in runs scored in the AL. Those were two big games against contending teams and Lester was very mediocre at best. Would you be happy with a season ERA of 5.14 or 4.50?
    Finally, don't blame the umps for "squeezing" Lester. The umps have been horrible all year but they didn't single him out. Blaming the umps is a copout. Lester is just not that good any more, even though he pitches for the Red Sox. Its hard to swallow. He WAS very good for several years; that is no longer the case.

     

     

     

     

     


    Verlander has given up 3 runs to Cleveland in 5 innings so far tonight...that's 5.40....damn he is worse than Lester. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to stats from one game...but I do watch enough to know when a pitcher is getting squeezed...or when someone keeps getting gifts ...Mo has been cleaning up this year...gifts from oppenents and than the umpires have been chipping in too...I don't like it but it's what has been going on. Lester is the least of our worries and if you bothered to look at what other teams #2 or #3 look like you would realize that.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Not surprisingly, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Lester is THE KEY to this year. If you and a few others are right and he is going to improve and pitch like a genuine #2 SP then we have a legitimate chance to contend for the playoffs. If he lays an egg this year and pitches like the #3-4 SP I think he is, we are going nowhere. As for single game ERAs, I use them only to evaluate the performance of a pitcher for THAT GAME. It puts a good perspective on things. Oh-and you should do your homework before you make statements like "Texas is one of the best offenses in the league". Try looking at the statistics first.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]
    You should apply that thinking to your own statements...Texas is in first place in their division and it isn't solely because of their pitching...beyond Holland and Darvish it just really isn't that good...they also get to beat up on Houston and Seattle pretty regular. Any team that has Beltre, Cruz, Berkman, Murphy and Andrus is probably going to do pretty well. You make a big deal out of Lester giving up 4 runs to the Yankees...2 scored on a fly ball that Bradley didn't catch because he was playing to shallow...is that on Lester or Bradley...the other 2 runs in that game came from soft hits...swinging bunt and a little flare by Suzuki...it wasn't like they were hitting shots off Lester...in other words the yankees got lucky...in the offensive end of things in that game....and Sabathia pitched really well...the best game of the year for him so far.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The Rangers lead the AL in ERA. But you're right: they are not the Red Sox, so they are not that good.

     

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