Lester no longer the ace
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Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 8:51 PM EDT
- maxbialystock
- Posts: 4277
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That's pretty obvious. I think it's because he can't throw a changeup, which makes it easier for the righthanded hitters. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:06 PM EDT
- royf19
- Posts: 8783
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Maybe, maybe not but I said in the spring I wouldn't be surprised if Josh Beckett emerged as the ace again, even with Lester pitching great.
It's a long season.
Who knows how it will look in September. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:08 PM EDT
- SinceYaz
- Posts: 5212
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He's had three bad games ... and no longer the ace? He had more last season before he turned into that ....19 game winner....
hmmmm -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:14 PM EDT
- Babe-Ted
- Posts: 186
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Looks like Max is a Yankee fan. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:14 PM EDT
- maxbialystock
- Posts: 4277
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His ERA is getting closer to 4 and is double Beckett's. Plus, as I keep saying, I don't think he has a changeup, which is not good for a lefty. Beckett has a good changeup, and it's made all the difference in the world. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:21 PM EDT
- maxbialystock
- Posts: 4277
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I stand corrected. Lester just threw a nice changeup to Swisher. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:22 PM EDT
- redsoxdirtdog
- Posts: 4506
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PLEASE!?!?! -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:24 PM EDT
- Hfxsoxnut
- Posts: 8430
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C'mon max, of course he has a changeup. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:25 PM EDT
- Your-Echo
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Max - the closet Yankee fan. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:43 PM EDT
- maxbialystock
- Posts: 4277
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Closet Yankee fan? All I said that a guy whose ERA is double Beckett's just might no longer be the ace. He might go six innings tonight and hopefully give up no more runs. But in a big three game series at Yankee Stadium, Beckett and Buchholz both pitched well--and a ton better than Lester, the presumptive ace. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:49 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
- First: 10/16/2007
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Relax Max: You've just been "piked!" -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 9:55 PM EDT
- ctredsoxfanhugh
- Posts: 3291
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I like to judge who the ace of the pitching staff is by weighing what that pitcher has done in recent history, not just in one month. If Dice-K has a 3 game stretch where he is completely dominate does that make him the Ace?Beckett is pitching like and ACE again, so now we have two......it is possible to have multiple aces, e.g. Philadelphia -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 10:15 PM EDT
- majorleague
- Posts: 358
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Way to go, clueless clunker, one game v. the last 2 years and change. Lester is still the Ace. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 10:15 PM EDT
- lvanDrago
- Posts: 275
- First: 1/5/2011
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what a terrible opening post to this thread was. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 10:16 PM EDT
- majorleague
- Posts: 358
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And, way to go with posting it after a poor start @ NY Yankees. Had you posted it before the game, I might consider you less than coward. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 10:20 PM EDT
- newenglanderinexile
- Posts: 1702
- First: 6/3/2007
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The television announcers just said that if Lester won tonight, he would have the best winning percentage of all pitchers with fifty decisions in the history of baseball. I think most people would say this qualifies him for ace status. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 10:32 PM EDT
- maxbialystock
- Posts: 4277
- First: 6/8/2010
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He just pitched a gutsy 4 innings to get to six. But this is a pretty important series, and the gave up 4, including two dingers. Aces don't pitch that way in big games (granted, it's still May). On the other hand, it's good to see all those defenders out there--based on his track record. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 10:42 PM EDT
- royf19
- Posts: 8783
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In Response to Re: Lester no longer the ace:He just pitched a gutsy 4 innings to get to six. But this is a pretty important series, and the gave up 4, including two dingers. Aces don't pitch that way in big games (granted, it's still May). On the other hand, it's good to see all those defenders out there--based on his track record.
Posted by maxbialystock
Actually, this is the definition of an ace. Big game, makes early mistakes but battles through it, settles down and put the team in position to win. That's as much of being an ace as going 7 innings with no runs. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 11:06 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
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Roy is telling it true.
A pitcher's form is not a constant. Considering Lester's last outing, his early problems weren't surprising.
This thread is short-sighted. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 11:14 PM EDT
- Flapjack07
- Posts: 2832
- First: 8/26/2008
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Talk to me at the All-Star break, if not after season's end. After what Lester has done the past several years, it will take more than a couple so-so starts for him to lose his "ace" status in my mind. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 11:44 PM EDT
- moonslav59
- Posts: 34442
- First: 9/27/2005
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Beckett's career has been so up and down, but I feel much of it can be traced to underlying injuries.
Schill was clearly the ace in 2006, but somehow Beckett managed to win more (16) with a 5.01 ERA.
In 2007, Beckett was the clear ace (20-11 3.27 1.141 WHIP) and should have won the Cy Young (see harness's piece). His post season was spectacular.
2008 was an interesting year:
Dice-K led in ERA 2.90 to Lester's 3.21 (Beck and Wake had respectable low 4 ERAs)
Dice-K led Lester in wins 18-16
However, 3 starters had more IP than Dice-K.
The WHIP leaders were:
Wake 1.182
Beck 1.187
Lest 1.274
Dice 1.324
It's hard to say anyone won over the ace position that year, even though Lester and Dice-K both had better years than Beckett in the traditional categories of judgement (wins and ERA) that to me are flawed.
It could be argued that Beckett and Lester were co-aces in 2009, and if you go soley by ERA, I guess some might say Lestr became the ace in 2009, but to me, Beckett was still the ace at this point. Some injuries had effecte his numbers, but even if you put that aside, the numbers were pretty equal in 2009:
Beckett 17-6 3.86 1.192 3.62 K/BB
Lester 15-8 3.41 1.230 3.52
2010
Beckett ws clearly not himself. If you believe someone can take away a position because of injury, then sure, Lester became the ace in 2010. Buch had a better winning % and ERA (2.33 to 3.25), but I'm not one to claim somone is the new ace based on one great season.
You may argue with my methodology and my ratings here, but here is how I rate our starters by season since 2007:
2007
Beck- Dice/Wake (tie) -Schill- Lest-Tav
2008
Dice/Lest (tie)- Beck/Wake (tie) - Mast
2009
Beck-Lest (tie) - Buc-Wake (tie) - Mast
2010
Buch - Lest - Lack - Dice - Wake- Beck
If you look at the last 4 years combined:
Beck: 1, 3, 1, 6
Lest: 5, 1, 1, 2
Slight edge to Leser here but not in WAR...
Beckett 55-29 4.08 (18.3 WAR)
Lester 54-23 3.40 (17.5 WAR)
2008-2010:
Lester: WAR 17.1 (7th in MLB)
Beckett: WAR 11.8 (18th)
2009-2010:
Lester 11.9
Beckett 6.7
So far, Beckett's off to an awesome start and Lester has struggled a little bit, but it is early. I'd have to say that when Beckett is healthy, I'd say we have co-aces. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/15/2011 11:47 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
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- Last: 10/28/2011
That about says it. Who is the true ace? It's a win-win. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/16/2011 12:05 AM EDT
- rip8569
- Posts: 12
- First: 5/12/2011
- Last: 5/11/2012
You are seriously going to dethrone Lester because he has a few rough starts? He has NO changeup? Not very savvy baseball opinions.Look,Beckett could come back down to earth at any time. Next time he tosses up a stinker are you going to say someone else is the ace? Hey, Buchholz tossed a fantastic game Friday night. Could he be the ace by next start? I suppose Dice-K was the staff ace because he tossed back to back 1 hit starts, right? I hope you can see now how ridiculous saying Lester is no longer the ace just because he allows 4+ runs in back to back starts. -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/16/2011 12:11 AM EDT
- S5
- Posts: 1381
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My question is, why does it matter who gets annointed as the "Ace"? -
Re: Lester no longer the ace
posted at 5/16/2011 12:19 AM EDT
- moonslav59
- Posts: 34442
- First: 9/27/2005
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You are seriously going to dethrone Lester because he has a few rough starts?
You have a great point here for sure, but one could ask why Beckett was dethroned to begin with due to injuries.