Lester

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    I think Holt for Cabrera would be a great trade for us. Thats what you weren't going to post anywhere, right? Yet here it is! And I think that putting Lester in the bullpen is also a great idea. Whats good about this forum is that we can post hypothetical ideas like that if we want to, don't you think?

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     



    Hypothetical ideas are great for this forum, but when someone posts the same idea multiple times even though there is no realistic chance whatsoever of it happening, it gets old quick.  You think Lester is terrible and manipulate stats to make your case.  Nothing wrong with that.  Some other people might say that Lester's 6-0 start to the season was a huge reason why this team got off to a hot start and gained a ton of confidence that they've continued to build on.  Then again, you are a Debbie Downer type who called the season "over" in May, so I don't expect you to see it that way.  Again, what is the point of posting something over and over again that isn't going to happen?  

     



    First, lets look at the real numbers for Lester at the beginning of this season and after that. He was stellar for FOUR games, not six. After four games his ERA was 1.73 and many believed he had finally turned the corner. Guess what: he hadn't. Not even close. In his fifth start, a no decision, he surrendered 3 ER in 5.2 IP; in his sixth start he was hammered: 5 ER in IP, a no decision. In his next start three ER in 6 IP, again a no decision in which he was quite mediocre. That was followed by two good games. But since then, in his next TWELVE STARTS his ERA is 5.35, and thats a below average #5 SP. We all know how poorly he did last year. He has shown NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE whatsover of turning the corner. He stunk last year; he still stinks. He does deserve a demotion to the bullpen, whether it happens or not.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    There is no objective evidence whatsoever that Lester has made ANY adjustments at all. He continues to stink and is not only not an ace but barely a #4 SP. If anyone can produce some numbers that show improvement I would love to see them. He is the worst SP in our current rotation, and he is too stubborn to change, apparently. He has, IMO, earned a demotion to the bullpen so someone else can see if they can do better. I realize this is not going to happen, but I think it would probably improve the team and possibly be such a rude awakening for Lester that he would realize that his stuff is no longer as good as he previously thought it was. I remember him insisting he was making good pitches in recent games, but those "good pitches" were being hit out of the ballpark. All of us wish he were better; some here believe he will be better despite lack of objective evidence of improvement in nearly two years. If you THINK he IS better, I have an island to sell you.

     




    There is evidence if you look at his pitch selections. Hes using his change up more. Lester said so himself. he said that since his ajustment with holding his glove lower, he feels more balanced which is allowing him to be more consistent with his change up.

     

    He just started making adjustments this year. No Manager would put him in the pen, or should, for a so called "wake up call". Thats crazy thinking and a bit extreme.. You have no evidence that hes being stubborn and refuses to change. In fact, If you look at his pitch selection, like I said, you will see that he is indeed changing things up and making adjustments. So I dont even know how you can say or think hes being stubborn and wont change. Thats just proof that hes trying different things.

    Most fans arent patient enough to understand, and want immediate improvement. Sometimes that doesnt happen. You usually say a game is over once the other team scores a few runs in the early innings PG, so giving up on Lester after 3+ months of trying to make adjustments and changing his approach doesnt surprise me. You give up too easy and too quickly. Maybe its just to get a reaction, maybe not. Either way, Lester will be given a long rope whether some agree or not. And he should. Hes earned it.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lester

    southpaw777, while I entirely agree with and support your defense of Lester, I also think he can be stubborn.   Like you, I do not see him leaving the rotation or the team. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    There is no objective evidence whatsoever that Lester has made ANY adjustments at all. He continues to stink and is not only not an ace but barely a #4 SP. If anyone can produce some numbers that show improvement I would love to see them. He is the worst SP in our current rotation, and he is too stubborn to change, apparently. He has, IMO, earned a demotion to the bullpen so someone else can see if they can do better. I realize this is not going to happen, but I think it would probably improve the team and possibly be such a rude awakening for Lester that he would realize that his stuff is no longer as good as he previously thought it was. I remember him insisting he was making good pitches in recent games, but those "good pitches" were being hit out of the ballpark. All of us wish he were better; some here believe he will be better despite lack of objective evidence of improvement in nearly two years. If you THINK he IS better, I have an island to sell you.

     




    There is evidence if you look at his pitch selections. Hes using his change up more. Lester said so himself. he said that since his ajustment with holding his glove lower, he feels more balanced which is allowing him to be more consistent with his change up.

     

    He just started making adjustments this year. No Manager would put him in the pen, or should, for a so called "wake up call". Thats crazy thinking and a bit extreme.. You have no evidence that hes being stubborn and refuses to change. In fact, If you look at his pitch selection, like I said, you will see that he is indeed changing things up and making adjustments. So I dont even know how you can say or think hes being stubborn and wont change. Thats just proof that hes trying different things.

    Most fans arent patient enough to understand, and want immediate improvement. Sometimes that doesnt happen. You usually say a game is over once the other team scores a few runs in the early innings PG, so giving up on Lester after 3+ months of trying to make adjustments and changing his approach doesnt surprise me. You give up too easy and too quickly. Maybe its just to get a reaction, maybe not. Either way, Lester will be given a long rope whether some agree or not. And he should. Hes earned it.



    I cannot prove that Lester is stubborn. You are right. I think he is still relying too much on his cutter, and that pitch is not performing for him. As for the claim that he there is evidence that he is changing his pitch selection, I haven't even looked at that because it doesn't matter. What matters to me is how many runs he allows, not what pitches he is throwing. Two years is more than enough time to give Lester for me and for "most fans". How long would you give him before you are willing to admit that he is never going to be more than a #4 SP? Three years? Five? Unfortunately for Lester, baseball is a game of "what have you done for me lately". Two years of failure is an extraordinarily long time. He is ours this year. There is, unfortunately, not much we can do about that. Unless he makes a dramatic and unexpected improvement I would not sign him again for next year.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    southpaw777, while I entirely agree with and support your defense of Lester, I also think he can be stubborn.   Like you, I do not see him leaving the rotation or the team. 

     




    I agree that most competitive guys like Lester can be a bit stubborn. Im not saying he isnt being a bit stubborn, Im just saying that although hes in the middle of accepting things hes trying different things. Us men have egos and all of us at one point can be stubborn about something, especially guys at the highest competitive level..

     

    Lester has been successful for a while doing things a certain way and theres always a little bit of resistance accepting things in this situation. I understand that and dont hold it against him. Hes made adjustments, so I dont think its as bad as PG is trying to portray. Being a little stubborn isnt stopping him from trying to make improvements.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: Lester

    Pitching in another Pitchers Park today, Safeco, then the Grand Canyon of Oakland. Lets see how he does.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    Lester is still in denial. Here is a recent quote from him:

    Lester (8-5, 4.60 ERA) dropped to 1-5 with an 8.54 ERA - the worst road ERA in the majors since May 20 - in his last five away outings Monday by yielding five runs over five-plus innings in an 11-4 loss to Seattle. He felt he was victimized by bad luck.

    "It goes back to, I feel like I threw the ball better than what the line score says," Lester told the Red Sox's official website.


    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lester

    Since hes making adjustments and mixing up his pitches, hes obviously not stubborn enough to try different things. Besides, that statement doesnt say hes stubborn, not sure how you got that from that statement.

    it certainly wasnt all bad luck, but there was a bit of it as well as some hits off of good pitches. Look, nobody is denying hes trying to make adjustments this year and is going through a rough time.Hes moved on the rubber, lowered his glove for better balance, Hes mixing up his pitches differently and not relying on the cutter as much. To say hes stubborn doesnt make sense for a guy whos trying different things in an attempt to get right.

    Enjoy the game tonight PG. I hope lester has a good outing amongst your constant badgering of him Wink

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Since hes making adjustments and mixing up his pitches, hes obviously not stubborn enough to try different things. Besides, that statement doesnt say hes stubborn, not sure how you got that from that statement.

    it certainly wasnt all bad luck, but there was a bit of it as well as some hits off of good pitches. Look, nobody is denying hes trying to make adjustments this year and is going through a rough time.Hes moved on the rubber, lowered his glove for better balance, Hes mixing up his pitches differently and not relying on the cutter as much. To say hes stubborn doesnt make sense for a guy whos trying different things in an attempt to get right.

    Enjoy the game tonight PG. I hope lester has a good outing amongst your constant badgering of him Wink

     



    In that post I didn't say that he is stubborn. I said he is in denial, which I believe he is. Here is another quote from him:

    “I think it’s just kind of coincidence that that’s been the pitch that’s led to a couple of hits that have scored some runs,” Lester said Friday. “I don’t think it’s anything that I’m concerned about or anybody else should be concerned about.” in reference to his cutter.

    But if you look at fangraphs the quality of his cutter is far below average. His cutter wCT (cutter runs above average) is at minus 8.0. By comparison, in 2010 his cutter was at 16.4. His cutter has been his worst pitch this year by far according to fangraphs, yet he continues to deny its a problem and continues to overutilize it.

    Over his last 10 starts his ERA is 6.49 with an OPSa of an astounding .900!  I don't think I have ever seen that high an OPSa that high over any significant number of games. Maybe he is making adjustments, but they are not working. I think the adjustment that needs to be made is to allow him to try out the bullpen for a while and concentrate on his changeup and his fastball, his two most effective pitches.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lester

    My comment was more about you and max saying hes stubborn, not so much the denial comment...Hes been using the change up more lately. I agree that the cutter hasnt been working and he needs to get away from it more. Maybe the kids having a bit of a mental battle, Im not denying that. Who could blame him. He certainly knows what hes doing isnt working, or else he wouldnt be trying different things. The bullpen idea isnt going to happen, nor do I think it would help him one bit. Its got to be tough being in the cy young talks 4-5 years in a row then just fall off a cliff. Im really not trying to make excuses for him, it is what it is. Im just pulling for the kid to finally make those adjustments and come out the other side.

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Lester


    If there is such a thing as a moral victory, Jon's game last night was one.

    He wasn't sharp at all times, but it reminded me specifically of a couple games long ago that Juan Marichal was pitching in.  Marichal was a great pitcher ... but the games I am speaking of, he seemed to be quite human.  Walks, hits ... jams on the bases, but he would buckle down and get out of things ... minimum damage.

    Lester was not great last night, but a little run support and it may have been different.  He was able to get out of most of the trouble he was in.  Still, a better game than some of late.  

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Lester

    Lester is channeling his inner Beckett with his post game comments....stubborn is a friends way of saying dumb as a box of dirt....Lester is not the same pitcher as he claims...not even close - not velocity wise, not in location, and of course nowhere near the success....he is what he is - at best at #3 and usually a 4 or 5

    I really think lackey needs to set him aside and tell him about the benefits of a total physical and mental makeover....the answer is right there but Lester insists that he still is that successful pitcher....

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Lester

    So 3 of the last 4 starts have been decent. PG will say last night Lester pitched poorly but that is ok, he has made his mind. Who is really being stubborn Lester or PG? We can forget in Lester's best years he was never a 8 inning guy, he just throws a lot a pitches. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lester

    Last night he pitched good, not great but not bad either. Taz came in and didnt do his job allowing another run, but it was a QS by Lester regardless. If all hes going to be is #3, then just react accordingly. He pitched like one last night so he did his job. Problem is, some fans still look at him as a dominating pitcher which is why theres all this hostility. Take the expectations down a notch and his performance is in line with who he might be. Hes not being paid like a TOTR pitcher, so as long as we can get a QS out of him, anything more is gravy.

    I still think he can, and will be more consistent. Its just going to take a little time. I also realize that he could be traded this off season and for the right return, Im not opposed to it.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lester

    Southpaw, you seem to be backing off your defense of Lester.  I believe he will stay because he still has a decent assortment of pitches and only needs better command of them.  That sounds odd talking about a starter pushing 30, but last night was a perfect example.  On an 0-2 count he absolutely grooved a fastball in the geometric center of the strike zone, and it was promptly jerked into the left field stands. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Last night he pitched good, not great but not bad either. Taz came in and didnt do his job allowing another run, but it was a QS by Lester regardless. If all hes going to be is #3, then just react accordingly. He pitched like one last night so he did his job. Problem is, some fans still look at him as a dominating pitcher which is why theres all this hostility. Take the expectations down a notch and his performance is in line with who he might be. Hes not being paid like a TOTR pitcher, so as long as we can get a QS out of him, anything more is gravy.

    I still think he can, and will be more consistent. Its just going to take a little time. I also realize that he could be traded this off season and for the right return, Im not opposed to it.




    He's not a #3. Does a #3 starter have an ERA on 4.58, a WHIP of 1.37 and a K/BB ratio of 2.25:1. No. Based on those numbers, Lester would be our #4 or #5.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Last night he pitched good, not great but not bad either. Taz came in and didnt do his job allowing another run, but it was a QS by Lester regardless. If all hes going to be is #3, then just react accordingly. He pitched like one last night so he did his job. Problem is, some fans still look at him as a dominating pitcher which is why theres all this hostility. Take the expectations down a notch and his performance is in line with who he might be. Hes not being paid like a TOTR pitcher, so as long as we can get a QS out of him, anything more is gravy.

    I still think he can, and will be more consistent. Its just going to take a little time. I also realize that he could be traded this off season and for the right return, Im not opposed to it.



    I agree with that assessment. He pitched good but not great. Good as in worthy of a start for a #3 SP, which IMO is his ceiling right now. His ERA for the game (I know no one likes that, but it does put things in perspective for me) was 4.26. Thats 3 ER in 6.1 IP. I don't think he is capable of pitching better than that with any consistency. I didn't see his postgame interview, which is probably a good thing. If he can consistently pitch like he did last night I have no complaints. I just don't think that will happen.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    Southpaw, you seem to be backing off your defense of Lester.  I believe he will stay because he still has a decent assortment of pitches and only needs better command of them.  That sounds odd talking about a starter pushing 30, but last night was a perfect example.  On an 0-2 count he absolutely grooved a fastball in the geometric center of the strike zone, and it was promptly jerked into the left field stands. 

     




    No, Im not backing off my defense of Lester, although after reading it, it would appear that way. Im just seeing some possibilites and trying to be realistic on all sides. I realize what hes going through now and dont try to sugarcoat it. I also realize that baseball is a game of adjustments and when a pitcher approaches 30yrs old after 7+ MLB years 1250 IP and about 22,000+ pitches, issues can arise. Hes lost only 1MPH in the last 3 years off his FB. His cutter isnt nearly as effective as it was, but his change up looks great and hes trying to make subtle adjustments, whether it be with his glove or changing sides on the rubber. These adjustment usually take some time.

     

    There is still the posibility he puts things together and becomes a solid consistent pitcher again, as well as remaining like a #3 pitcher, like last nights performance. Some team might also offer a nice package for Lester+ this offseason that Ben would HAVE to consider. I absolutely dont think that they try to move him because they know hes a good smart pitcher who has 4 solid pitches. He just needs to adjust his approach.

    A lot of the time when I post, my opinion is in there but also the possibilities that could happen are mixed in too. Sometimes I dont word things correctly and it sounds like those other possibilites ARE my opinions. So.....

    I think The Sox will pick up Lesters option and for now they believe, like I do, that he will come out the other side as a solid consistent pitcher again. Hes got the stuff, the smarts and the ability. Hes always been a pitcher who goes about 7IP, starts 33+ games every year with 200+K's and 200+ IP every year. He can still win 15 games, IMHO, and the Sox wont give up on him as easily as some here have.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to ADG's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Last night he pitched good, not great but not bad either. Taz came in and didnt do his job allowing another run, but it was a QS by Lester regardless. If all hes going to be is #3, then just react accordingly. He pitched like one last night so he did his job. Problem is, some fans still look at him as a dominating pitcher which is why theres all this hostility. Take the expectations down a notch and his performance is in line with who he might be. Hes not being paid like a TOTR pitcher, so as long as we can get a QS out of him, anything more is gravy.

    I still think he can, and will be more consistent. Its just going to take a little time. I also realize that he could be traded this off season and for the right return, Im not opposed to it.

     




    He's not a #3. Does a #3 starter have an ERA on 4.58, a WHIP of 1.37 and a K/BB ratio of 2.25:1. No. Based on those numbers, Lester would be our #4 or #5.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    He pitched like a #3 last night. Thats why that comment was made.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Lester

    He was not bad , but certainly did not really impress. A lot of hard hit balls. Good defense behind him. He looks like just another pitcher. I think we expect better than that from him.

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    He was not bad , but certainly did not really impress. A lot of hard hit balls. Good defense behind him. He looks like just another pitcher. I think we expect better than that from him.

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     




    Thats one of my points too. The fan base might have to adjust expectations with Lester. Im not done giving up on him, but there a pssibility he may end up like good #3. Time will tell. I dont think he will ever be considered an Ace anymore, so expectations should be lowered a little anyway.

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Lester

    Lester has changed his pitching approach and its very noticeable with his pitch selection. Hes laid off the cutter on 0-2 counts and has used his great change up as well as his curve, which has been working better for him as of late. Farrell also mentioned throwing a different cutter without so much bite on it to make it more controllable.

    3 of the last 4 games have been quality starts, with last nights game being the best of the last 4. Hes making the adjustments and is trending in the right direction. Long way to go, but its encouraging to see him do whatever he needs to do to become successful again. So much for being stubborn and channeling his inner Beckett...Id just say that some here have absolutely no patience. I still believe he will turn things around. IMHO, Hes too talented not to.

    http://blogs.providencejournal.com/sports/red-sox/2013/07/red-sox-6-rays-2-lester-keeps-boston-in-first.html

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Lester has changed his pitching approach and its very noticeable with his pitch selection. Hes laid off the cutter on 0-2 counts and has used his great change up as well as his curve, which has been working better for him as of late. Farrell also mentioned throwing a different cutter without so much bite on it to make it more controllable.

    3 of the last 4 games have been quality starts, with last nights game being the best of the last 4. Hes making the adjustments and is trending in the right direction. Long way to go, but its encouraging to see him do whatever he needs to do to become successful again. So much for being stubborn and channeling his inner Beckett...Id just say that some here have absolutely no patience. I still believe he will turn things around. IMHO, Hes too talented not to.

    http://blogs.providencejournal.com/sports/red-sox/2013/07/red-sox-6-rays-2-lester-keeps-boston-in-first.html




    It's got nothing to do with Lester making adjustments.

    I traded him off my fantasy team.

    You can thank me at the end of the season. Wink

     
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