Lester

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    I expected you to be here. keeping it real, huh? Thats nice. What your doing, and the intent, is called rubbing it in not keeping it real. We all saw that JL didnt have a good game, but thanks for the update and your opinion of his career. Thank God those that have some patience and a lot more knowledge are in charge. Would you like to call him a cute name now? maybe that will make you feel better...

     




    Sure. LOSESTER has used up all my patience. Its been close to TWO YEARS since he has pitched well. In another FIVE YEARS maybe those who still think he still has anything left in the tank will see the reality of it: its over for him. What you see right now is what you will get. Forever.

    I feel free to debate anyone here who still thinks Lester is salvageable as anything more than a borderline #4 SP. This is from Pete Abraham's column today:

    Lester is 17-19 with a 4.74 ERA over 52 starts since the start of the 2012 season. Maybe that $13 million would be better spent elsewhere if those numbers somehow get worse.

    17-19 with an ERA of 4.74. We can do better. There is no way I spend $13M on a guy with those numbers next year. Unless there is a dramatic and unexpected improvement, I say we thank him for what he has done for the team and hand him his coat at the end of this year.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Honestly, as I mentioned in March, you would think by now if Lester hadn't turned it around that we could safely bet this is who he is.  I myself had named July 15th as the day I could safely pass judgment, and I believe today he is exactly the same pitcher we have seen since August 2011. He isn't doing well.

    Would you not agree that if he realed off 3 straight solid starts that it was more likely an oddity and that he will have far more streaks of going 5 and surrendering 5?

     




    I understand your points, and they are valid. Personally, Im just not ready to give up on him yet. He just threw 2 solid games and then last night happened. Maybe he has lost it. I just dont think so. Not yet. I said I would wait til the year is over and evaluate his full year. He has an option to consider next year at a good price. Im just going to let this year play out...

     

    [/QUOTE]


    In one of his "solid starts" he surrendered FOUR RUNS IN SEVEN INNINGS! For reference, thats an in game ERA of 5.14. Are you seriously happy with that kind of an ERA if it were carried out over a full season? Truth is, he is not that far off from that ERA. As of today his ERA is 4.60, just about half a run a game below 5.14. Lester is finished as anything but a #4-5 SP. We have better options in the coming years than Jon "Big Game" Lester. Its time to face reality. Two years is long enough.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lester

    Lester is still healthy and still throws decent heat (95mph) along with a decent curve, changeup, and cutter.  But, for whatever reason, he is just not getting guys out, and last night was a perfect example because the Mariners are not a good hitting team but tagged him for 5 in 5 innings.  Relatedly, he threw an awful lot of pitches to get thru those 5 innings (and 2 in the 6th).  And, as Peter Abraham points out, he gave up a dinger on an 0-2 count. 

    I still think he is fixable and offer three things for him to work on (I have little pitching expertise):  1) relying less on the fastball and cutter;  2) making sure he is not tipping his pitches or tipping them by using the same pitches in certain situations; 3) working on his control. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    Lester is still healthy and still throws decent heat (95mph) along with a decent curve, changeup, and cutter.  But, for whatever reason, he is just not getting guys out, and last night was a perfect example because the Mariners are not a good hitting team but tagged him for 5 in 5 innings.  Relatedly, he threw an awful lot of pitches to get thru those 5 innings (and 2 in the 6th).  And, as Peter Abraham points out, he gave up a dinger on an 0-2 count. 

    I still think he is fixable and offer three things for him to work on (I have little pitching expertise):  1) relying less on the fastball and cutter;  2) making sure he is not tipping his pitches or tipping them by using the same pitches in certain situations; 3) working on his control. 

     



    Max, its been TWO YEARS (or will be in September) since he has pitched well. How much longer are you going to give him before you realize that what you see is what you are going to get? Sure, he will pitch an occasional good game. Last game he was excellent. ALL ML pitchers pitch an occasional good game or they would not be in the ML. After his first four starts this year, and all of last year, Lester has consistently been mediocre to horrible, with those occasional good games. This is Lester. Its was Lester last year; its Lester this year; and its likely to be Lester permanently. He is an above average #5 SP,and thats all he is.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lester

    I don't have to give him anything--that's up to Farrell and Cherington.  Right now he is in the rotation and unlikely to be demoted, so to me it makes sense to say and think he is fixable.   Unlike you, I think Farrell and Cherington know what they are doing. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    I don't have to give him anything--that's up to Farrell and Cherington.  Right now he is in the rotation and unlikely to be demoted, so to me it makes sense to say and think he is fixable.   Unlike you, I think Farrell and Cherington know what they are doing. 




    Farrell and Cherington, along with the rest of us, are stuck with Lester. He is not going anywhere this season. What do you expect Farrell to say? The truth? That Lester is not the pitcher he once was-or anything close to it-and has an ERA of nearly 5 over his last 52 starts? Farrell and Cherington have to say he is fixable. We don't. I guess some here genuinely feel that he IS fixable and they should feel free to express that opinion-as I feel free to state what is obvious to me.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: Lester

    You have to start wondering how much of his early success was due to Varitek.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to illinoisredsox's comment:

    You have to start wondering how much of his early success was due to Varitek.



    Lester was dominant from 2008 to 2011. He was one of the best lefties, if not one of the best pitchers, in all of baseball. Varitek may have played a role in that, but it was still Lester throwing the ball. Great pitchers are not great because of their catcher. They are great because the can command their pitches and locate them consistently. Lester has lost that ability.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I don't have to give him anything--that's up to Farrell and Cherington.  Right now he is in the rotation and unlikely to be demoted, so to me it makes sense to say and think he is fixable.   Unlike you, I think Farrell and Cherington know what they are doing. 

     




    Farrell and Cherington, along with the rest of us, are stuck with Lester. He is not going anywhere this season. What do you expect Farrell to say? The truth? That Lester is not the pitcher he once was-or anything close to it-and has an ERA of nearly 5 over his last 52 starts? Farrell and Cherington have to say he is fixable. We don't. I guess some here genuinely feel that he IS fixable and they should feel free to express that opinion-as I feel free to state what is obvious to me.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Farrell has managed to be pretty truthful about other players, plus Lester is not in fact injured.  It's entirely possible he can't be fixed, but I seem to remember the same thing was said about Bartolo Colon, a guy who was let go by several teams, including the Sox, and he is in the all-star game this year. 

    Ted Williams said the hardest skill in all sports is being able to hit a round ball with a round bat squarely.  I disagree because I think pitching is harder.  The target is small, the demands for accuracy--hitting the corners--are extreme.  The pitcher actually has to exert himself enough so that he puts his arm, shoulder, elbow, etc at risk.  He has to be able to throw different kinds of pitches and mask which pitch is coming.  So I think it is not unnatural that an otherwise capable pitcher can have a long slump like this. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to illinoisredsox's comment:

     

    You have to start wondering how much of his early success was due to Varitek.

     



    Lester was dominant from 2008 to 2011. He was one of the best lefties, if not one of the best pitchers, in all of baseball. Varitek may have played a role in that, but it was still Lester throwing the ball. Great pitchers are not great because of their catcher. They are great because the can command their pitches and locate them consistently. Lester has lost that ability.

     




     

    Didn't mean from that standpoint.  But for the most part, if Varitek called a pitch, that's what the pitcher threw, and the pitcher had confidence that it was the right call.  They didn't have to think.  I just wonder if Lester is thinking too much out there.  Is the game planning anywhere near as thorough as it was (it would be impossible to match Varitek in that regard, but is it even close)?  Does he shake off Salty where he never would have thought of it with Varitek.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

    I don't have to give him anything--that's up to Farrell and Cherington.  Right now he is in the rotation and unlikely to be demoted, so to me it makes sense to say and think he is fixable.   Unlike you, I think Farrell and Cherington know what they are doing. 

     

     




    Farrell and Cherington, along with the rest of us, are stuck with Lester. He is not going anywhere this season. What do you expect Farrell to say? The truth? That Lester is not the pitcher he once was-or anything close to it-and has an ERA of nearly 5 over his last 52 starts? Farrell and Cherington have to say he is fixable. We don't. I guess some here genuinely feel that he IS fixable and they should feel free to express that opinion-as I feel free to state what is obvious to me.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Farrell has managed to be pretty truthful about other players, plus Lester is not in fact injured.  It's entirely possible he can't be fixed, but I seem to remember the same thing was said about Bartolo Colon, a guy who was let go by several teams, including the Sox, and he is in the all-star game this year. 

     

    Ted Williams said the hardest skill in all sports is being able to hit a round ball with a round bat squarely.  I disagree because I think pitching is harder.  The target is small, the demands for accuracy--hitting the corners--are extreme.  The pitcher actually has to exert himself enough so that he puts his arm, shoulder, elbow, etc at risk.  He has to be able to throw different kinds of pitches and mask which pitch is coming.  So I think it is not unnatural that an otherwise capable pitcher can have a long slump like this. 

    [/QUOTE]

    So here is the key question: at some point in time it will be obvious to you that Lester cannot be fixed if he keeps doing what he is doing, right? It might be five years from now for you, or three...or less than one. For me that time has arrived. When will it arrive for you? Farrell is rightfully never going to badmouth one of his players in the media, especially not a veteran like Lester, so you cannot depend on what he says.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to illinoisredsox's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to illinoisredsox's comment:

     

    You have to start wondering how much of his early success was due to Varitek.

     



    Lester was dominant from 2008 to 2011. He was one of the best lefties, if not one of the best pitchers, in all of baseball. Varitek may have played a role in that, but it was still Lester throwing the ball. Great pitchers are not great because of their catcher. They are great because the can command their pitches and locate them consistently. Lester has lost that ability.

     

     




     

     

    Didn't mean from that standpoint.  But for the most part, if Varitek called a pitch, that's what the pitcher threw, and the pitcher had confidence that it was the right call.  They didn't have to think.  I just wonder if Lester is thinking too much out there.  Is the game planning anywhere near as thorough as it was (it would be impossible to match Varitek in that regard, but is it even close)?  Does he shake off Salty where he never would have thought of it with Varitek.

    [/QUOTE]


    Understood. Varitek certainly had the reputation of being one of the best prepared catchers in the game. I am sure that has something to do with Lester's failures. Maybe not as much as his drop in velocity or failure to locate his pitches, but it could be a factor.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lester

    pumpsie-green, you keep trying to pin me down, and I keep telling you I am fine with whatever Farrell and Cherington decide.    Lester's contract is good for one more year but only if the Sox exercise that option, so I think no one needs to make up their mind before the end of this season.  The guy is healthy and still throws hard, and he has had real success in the past.  The Sox are paying him like $13M this year, so why not try to get some use out of him?  What's your solution?  Give him away?  Send him to Portland so he can compare notes with Bard? 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    pumpsie-green, you keep trying to pin me down, and I keep telling you I am fine with whatever Farrell and Cherington decide.    Lester's contract is good for one more year but only if the Sox exercise that option, so I think no one needs to make up their mind before the end of this season.  The guy is healthy and still throws hard, and he has had real success in the past.  The Sox are paying him like $13M this year, so why not try to get some use out of him?  What's your solution?  Give him away?  Send him to Portland so he can compare notes with Bard? 



    For me, the Lester you see is the Lester we will get for the rest of this year. Its not about getting rid of him; he is ours this year, for better or worse. Its about admitting that he is not likely to get any better than what he is now, no matter what Farrell or Cherington says. Its about keeping it real and admitting the truth. For me, this is my truth: 4.60. Other reputable posters may disagree, but I don't see him getting any better. So at the end of the year, let him walk. He is not worth $13M.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from xdrive. Show xdrive's posts

    Re: Lester


    he does not have good command of his cutter, he misses over the middle with that pitch quite often and in my opinion he throws way too many of them. he has the stuff to get people out, heck if Jamie Moyer could get people out with his stuff then Lester sure as heck should be able to. Lester should focus on locating his fastball more and his change up more and use the cutter less frequently, he is predictable on top of not commanding his stuff, since the change in wind up i think he has better stuff and seems to have gotten some velocity back.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     


     

     




    Farrell and Cherington, along with the rest of us, are stuck with Lester. He is not going anywhere this season. What do you expect Farrell to say?  That Lester is not the pitcher he once was-or anything close to it-and has an ERA of nearly 5 over his last 52 starts? Farrell and Cherington have to say he is fixable. We don't. I guess some here genuinely feel that he IS fixable and they should feel free to express that opinion-as I feel free to state what is obvious to me.

    So here is the key question: at some point in time it will be obvious to you that Lester cannot be fixed if he keeps doing what he is doing, right? It might be five years from now for you, or three...or less than one. For me that time has arrived. When will it arrive for you? Farrell is rightfully never going to badmouth one of his players in the media, especially not a veteran like Lester, so you cannot depend on what he says.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    This leaves you in a pretty good spot, doesn't it?   You've told us that while Lester and Cherrington may know more about this entire situation than everyone here on the board, we can't believe what they say.  The only one we can believe is YOU because YOU tell the truth. 

    Pfft.

    An old saying comes to mind immediately.  "We don't see things as they are.  We see things as WE are."

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    7 solid innings from Lester tonight allowing only 1 run. Hes certainly trending in the right direction.




    Oops. Guess not.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

     

    Honestly, as I mentioned in March, you would think by now if Lester hadn't turned it around that we could safely bet this is who he is.  I myself had named July 15th as the day I could safely pass judgment, and I believe today he is exactly the same pitcher we have seen since August 2011. He isn't doing well.

    Would you not agree that if he realed off 3 straight solid starts that it was more likely an oddity and that he will have far more streaks of going 5 and surrendering 5?

     




    I understand your points, and they are valid. Personally, Im just not ready to give up on him yet. He just threw 2 solid games and then last night happened. Maybe he has lost it. I just dont think so. Not yet. I said I would wait til the year is over and evaluate his full year. He has an option to consider next year at a good price. Im just going to let this year play out...

     



    Keep in mind a few things when you watch Lester:

    He has lost 4-5 MPH off his fastball.

    A cutter is his supposed out pitch.

    When a pitcher nibbles like Jon Lester does, he doesn't have the pelota's to go after hitters. 94 pitches after 4 IP. Really?

    After bad outings like last night, he comments that he thought he had good stuff. If he thought he had good stuff, there is something terribly wrong with his perspective.

    It was a game where they needed a big game. He game them nothing.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    pumpsie-green, you keep trying to pin me down, and I keep telling you I am fine with whatever Farrell and Cherington decide.    Lester's contract is good for one more year but only if the Sox exercise that option, so I think no one needs to make up their mind before the end of this season.  The guy is healthy and still throws hard, and he has had real success in the past.  The Sox are paying him like $13M this year, so why not try to get some use out of him?  What's your solution?  Give him away?  Send him to Portland so he can compare notes with Bard? 



    He had success in the past yes, but it's been almost two full calendar years.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to ADG's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

     

    Honestly, as I mentioned in March, you would think by now if Lester hadn't turned it around that we could safely bet this is who he is.  I myself had named July 15th as the day I could safely pass judgment, and I believe today he is exactly the same pitcher we have seen since August 2011. He isn't doing well.

    Would you not agree that if he realed off 3 straight solid starts that it was more likely an oddity and that he will have far more streaks of going 5 and surrendering 5?

     




    I understand your points, and they are valid. Personally, Im just not ready to give up on him yet. He just threw 2 solid games and then last night happened. Maybe he has lost it. I just dont think so. Not yet. I said I would wait til the year is over and evaluate his full year. He has an option to consider next year at a good price. Im just going to let this year play out...

     

     



    Keep in mind a few things when you watch Lester:

     

    He has lost 4-5 MPH off his fastball.

    A cutter is his supposed out pitch.

    When a pitcher nibbles like Jon Lester does, he doesn't have the pelota's to go after hitters. 94 pitches after 4 IP. Really?

    After bad outings like last night, he comments that he thought he had good stuff. If he thought he had good stuff, there is something terribly wrong with his perspective.

    It was a game where they needed a big game. He game them nothing.

    [/QUOTE]

    Lost 4-5 mph off his fastball?  Are you saying he used to throw 99-100mph?  I ask because his fastball last night was 92-95 mph, and that is fast enough for anyone to be effective.  His fastball is fast enough.  I think he uses the fastball and the cutter too much.  Plus, of course, he can't consistently hit the corners with them. 

    I think his stuff last night was good enough, but that sure didn't impress the Seattle hitters, who aren't that good in the first place, so something is definitely wrong.  I think he is throwing the wrong combinations of pitches and is either predictable--for example, you can safely sit on his cutter and fastball because that's what he prefers to throw--or is tipping his pitches.  Plus he does not consistently hit the corners. 

    I also disagree that last night was crucial because Hernandez is more than Seattle's ace, he is one of the best starters in MLB.  Same deal the other night against Weaver, who was throwing nasty stuff, and Lackey wasted an excellent start in LA.  A win last night was not likely, especially with Ellsbury and Victorino out of the lineup.  I am not defending Lester because I agree he was terrible--5 runs in 5 innings and way too many pitches. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Lester

    Fat Cat Ace

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     


     

     




    Farrell and Cherington, along with the rest of us, are stuck with Lester. He is not going anywhere this season. What do you expect Farrell to say?  That Lester is not the pitcher he once was-or anything close to it-and has an ERA of nearly 5 over his last 52 starts? Farrell and Cherington have to say he is fixable. We don't. I guess some here genuinely feel that he IS fixable and they should feel free to express that opinion-as I feel free to state what is obvious to me.

    So here is the key question: at some point in time it will be obvious to you that Lester cannot be fixed if he keeps doing what he is doing, right? It might be five years from now for you, or three...or less than one. For me that time has arrived. When will it arrive for you? Farrell is rightfully never going to badmouth one of his players in the media, especially not a veteran like Lester, so you cannot depend on what he says.

     



    This leaves you in a pretty good spot, doesn't it?   You've told us that while Lester and Cherrington may know more about this entire situation than everyone here on the board, we can't believe what they say.  The only one we can believe is YOU because YOU tell the truth. 

    Pfft.

    An old saying comes to mind immediately.  "We don't see things as they are.  We see things as WE are."

    [/QUOTE]

    Thats BS S5 and you know it. What makes you think that you are entitled to the truth from those guys? Farrell is not going to badmouth his players to the media. You KNOW that is the case. He is not Valentine. We each can form our own opinions about Lester without the propaganda perpetrated by his boss. You don't have to believe me. I could not care less if you do. Eventually I think you will admit that THIS is the real Lester.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Lester

    In response to ADG's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

     

    Honestly, as I mentioned in March, you would think by now if Lester hadn't turned it around that we could safely bet this is who he is.  I myself had named July 15th as the day I could safely pass judgment, and I believe today he is exactly the same pitcher we have seen since August 2011. He isn't doing well.

    Would you not agree that if he realed off 3 straight solid starts that it was more likely an oddity and that he will have far more streaks of going 5 and surrendering 5?

     




    I understand your points, and they are valid. Personally, Im just not ready to give up on him yet. He just threw 2 solid games and then last night happened. Maybe he has lost it. I just dont think so. Not yet. I said I would wait til the year is over and evaluate his full year. He has an option to consider next year at a good price. Im just going to let this year play out...

     

     



    Keep in mind a few things when you watch Lester:

     

    He has lost 4-5 MPH off his fastball.

    A cutter is his supposed out pitch.

    When a pitcher nibbles like Jon Lester does, he doesn't have the pelota's to go after hitters. 94 pitches after 4 IP. Really?

    After bad outings like last night, he comments that he thought he had good stuff. If he thought he had good stuff, there is something terribly wrong with his perspective.

    It was a game where they needed a big game. He game them nothing.

    [/QUOTE]


    Lets keep it real: in 2009 and 2010 the average velocity of his FB was 93.5; this year its 91.9. Just 1.6 MPH different. And according to pitchFx the quality of his cutter has fallen off dramatically. He simply is not that pitcher any more; I don't think he ever will be.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Lester

    It's a shame, but I have no confidence whatsoever in Jon anymore.  I feel better going into a game now with Lackey, Dempster, Doubront, even Aceves on the mound.  I always have hopes for Lester's outings, but too many times those hopes have been dashed. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Lester

    i was timing his pitches...he was throwing about 2 pitches per minute at most...usually a pitch every 40 seconds....someone explain to me why this was allowed....how can a pitcher have command of his pitches if he is throwing one pitch a minute? Lester needs to move his butt and get into a groove...

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     

Share