Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from --The--Babe--1. Show --The--Babe--1's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    In Response to Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....:
    [QUOTE]Yazzer = Babe Both are here to create havoc.

    Posted by Your-Echo[/QUOTE]

    No, unlike you pike, I'm actually talking about baseball. Something you have never done on this forum.

     
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    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

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    [QUOTE]I've said it before (*cough* responding to Showalter *cough*) and I'll say it again, you can't fairly criticize a GM who runs a high-revenue team for having an imperfect record with FAs. It's a known fact that free agency is an ineffecient way to accumulate talent, but teams that wish to compete EVERY year (which is what high-revenue team owners demand from their GMs) need to sign imperfect players at times to fill holes to ensure they have high playoff chances on an annual basis. When the Sox won it all in 2004, do you think Theo really wanted to sign guys like Wells and Renteria? He had a veteran laden, somewhat overpriced team that (thanks to players it was losing to free agency) had a lot of holes and NO minor league talent to speak of. If the Sox were a low or mid revenue franchise, Theo would have bitten the bullet for a couple of years, used value signings to tide the major league team over, and set about rebuilding the minor league system. However, because ownership demanded a shot at a repeat, he signed a number of overpriced veterans (while being smart enough to let his own FAs go...without the draft pick compensation, it would have taken far longer to rebuild the minor league system, as the Yankees have learned the hard way), many of whom proved to not be worth the money. Such is the price of aiming for annual playoff appearances. People like to give the Rays credit for "developing" a lot of their "homegrown" players, but keep in mind that a lot of their talent comes from high first round picks that successful teams never had a shot at. Would Boston ever allow the Red Sox to go through 5+ years of last place finishes in order to turn into a completely "homegrown" team? And do you seriously think the Rays deserve credit for "developing" someone like Evan Longoria (a virtual sure thing who would have been successful for any franchise)? The current Ray ownership DOES deserve credit, not for the high draft pick players, but for how well they've filled in the rest of their roster will savvy signings. Signings that the Boston media would have a field day with (calling it things like a "bridge year"). As for whether Theo deserves credit as a quality GM, to sum up his success with the Nomar trade is the height of stupidity or bias. He took a franchise that had been in "win now" mode for a decade (leaving a shallow minor league system and a major league team of aging players, the worst type of assests for a GM), made the right moves over two years to make it a legitimate championship contender (and winner), and once he gave Boston the championship is yearned for he had the balls to let a number of popular players walk because he knew they would be overpaid and because he needed the draft pick compensation. Within THREE years, the team was full of high upside, cost controlled young players who either filled in the major league roster (Pedroia, Ellsbury, Bard, Buchholz, etc) or were used to acquire key pieces like Josh Beckett, AND that led to another championship! Once Theo succeeded in creating a fantastic minor league system, especially considering Boston's lack of top draft picks due to the team's success, he assured that the team was an annual playoff contender (good minor league system + high payroll = flexibility to fill your roster every year and always compete). When it came to signing players like Lackey and Crawford, perhaps Theo got greedy, or perhaps ownership gave him a new task: build an annual CHAMPIONSHIP contender (not just a playoff contender) in the mold of the Yankees...but with at least 25% less payroll. We can't be sure if Theo really wanted to make those moves or not, but keep in mind that the core success of any GM, Yankee GMs aside, comes from their ability to scout, evaluate, and develop minor league talent, and Theo has shown himself to be quite good at that. His stature as a strong GM is certain. Is he the best? It depends on the criteria, and chances are he is not. Is he top 5, or even top 10? Given how subjective such a question is, there is no sure answer, but he might not even be ranked there. But he's definitely not a BAD GM, or even a mediocre one...which makes this thread pretty silly.
    Posted by redsoxu571[/QUOTE]

    Excellent response, well thought out and stated. Kudos.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    There is so much more to grading a GM than just FA signings. A lot of great points were mentioned here so i wont repeat them. I think all in all Theo has put together what he said he was going to do.. A scouting and development machine. So if he were to go to the rays, I think Theo would thrive.
    Free Agency is always going to cost more and is never a sure thing. To grade Theo based on just that alone is not thourough enough. I think with Long term deals ie; CC and lackey, to give a proper assesment, you would need to be patient and wait a couple years. 1.5 months for CC out of a 7-year deal is hardly the time to say it was a "bad deal" and lackey pretty much earned his $$ last year, minus a couple milllion, per fangraphs.
    Bottom line, Theo has built the whole organization from top to bottom, inside and out, all while staying in contention year after year.
     
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    [QUOTE]Both were stellar GMs in their respective time with the Expos and Indians but when they each went to a bigger wallet they destroyed their teams... The Red Sox are far from the Rangers or Mets and have a great chance of winning it all this year- but not because Theo is any good.  He just buys buys buys.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Actually, John Henry buys, buys and buys. You don't really think Theo alone makes the final decision, do you?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    Great in developing the farm system, generally lousy in FA moves, with a few exceptions.

    Theo doesn't have to be that good because the $$$ keeps flowing in, so when he makes a Lugo, Renteria, type mistake, the Sox can just eat the cost and move on, whereas those types of deals would be crippling to many franchises.  Theo and Cashman get way too much praise considering they are essentially playing in a different financial league than 90% of teams in MLB.  Not too many teams pay their 4th OF 9 million, their 4th starter 16 million, and their 5th starter 8 million. 

    People like to say that "anyone could've coached Micheal Jordan to championships" well likewise, anyone could build a pretty good ballclub with a 170 million dollar payroll. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

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    [QUOTE]Yes but we had Jed Hoyer in the bag - and 11 of the 12 (dozen) clubs you mention never would have written the big check for the contract extension - the sooner we all admit we are copying the Yankees now the sooner we can all be on the same page.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]Burrito, of course to an large extent the RS are copying the NYY, as are the Phillies, Angels, Cubs, Tigers, White Sox and Mets. When more of their young players are further developed add the Orioles to that list because of MASN and once they are sold to somebody with capital the Dodgers.

    Larger market teams will have the ability to blend their player development into those they keep and those they trade with more aggression than a smaller market team that needs to contain payroll at a lower figure.

    Larger market teams can jump start their process with the injection of veteran talent at a greater rate and can and will make more mistakes but that is because they can afford them.

    He has done very well in player development given the RS draft position. And as for Hoyer being the bag, I am not sure what that means. If it means he had some advantage the Jed knew the prospects well, sure. But that also is balanced by the fact that in addition to knowing the guys in the system and their strengths, Hoyer knew their weaknesses. If you are suggesting OTOH that Hoyer "gave" Gonzalez to the RS that is IMO a naive point of view. And Epstein still had to have the prospects on hand and the budget open to commit to Gonzalez. If he had listed to his critics Mr. Leigh Texiera would have been at first and Jason Bay in LF.

    I will give you a tip of the hat on one thing BT, you freely admit you started this thread to stir a beehive, something that authors of a lot of these kind of threads would never do and you have managed to do it without any "dark" posts on your part, something else that does not often happen when folks try to manufacture controversy.

    Last thought, while it would not be as high profile, if Epstein was a small market GM his teams would progress well. And for that matter the same can probably be said of Brian Cashman. In Cash's case I think he may get to prove that soon as I think the relationship between him and the Tampa mafia is freyed. 
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good..... : I don't think it's an overstatement at all - Gonzalez is a steal at $20M / season.  If you put him on waivers right now, a dozen teams would claim him.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    Yes, but in the interest of healthy debate, I just wanted to concede that 'teams lining up' has a flair of hyperbole.  Of course there would be suitors who wouldn't think twice about ponying up for El Diablo.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

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    [QUOTE]Great in developing the farm system, generally lousy in FA moves, with a few exceptions. Theo doesn't have to be that good because the $$$ keeps flowing in, so when he makes a Lugo, Renteria, type mistake, the Sox can just eat the cost and move on, whereas those types of deals would be crippling to many franchises.  Theo and Cashman get way too much praise considering they are essentially playing in a different financial league than 90% of teams in MLB.  Not too many teams pay their 4th OF 9 million, their 4th starter 16 million, and their 5th starter 8 million.  People like to say that "anyone could've coached Micheal Jordan to championships" well likewise, anyone could build a pretty good ballclub with a 170 million dollar payroll. 
    Posted by Calmy[/QUOTE]What happend with the Cubs and Mets then? Or Detroit who paid luxury tax just two seasons ago?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    Hate to say it, but Renteria wasn't Theo's fault.  It was Renteria's fault.  He produced before he got here and after he left, meaning that he had the talent.  Kind of hard to assess what happens between the ears.

    Same with Dice K.  Has proven that he can pitch very well in the majors.  His lack of consistency is on him.

    Theo's job is to assess talent, put a price on the talent, and try to get the talent for the right price.  If a pitcher's arm blows up or a hitter's eye sight suddenly goes bad, it isn't the fault of the GM.

    If all it took was money, then the Yankees and Mets would always be in the WS.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from lvanDrago. Show lvanDrago's posts

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    Agree on Renteria not really being Theo’s fault, at least in terms of recognizing and targeting the talent. I think the mistake was in listening to the fans/media and getting rid of him after only 1yr and not giving him another chance, but that’s water under the bridge.

     
    Now, Lugo, on the other hand, that’s a mistake from the first day all the way to the last.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    Carl was the best available on the market and not the best available for the team.  Thus Theo signed him with complete disregard to what makes sense for the team, not only now but long-term.

    I think that sums it up, perfectly.

    Theo fails to anticipate on the issues of player value and movement, and reacts instead of shrewd planning in advance. He frequently sells low and buys high, in a year to year reactionary dance. With all the player development and scouts he has, it's pretty pitiful the way he does business. He also makes the mistake of being sentimental in constructing a roster, with a squat spot on the roster for cumbersome washed up profiles like Lowell, Wakefield and Varitek. His favorite term in writing off bad contracts is "sunk cost", yet he fails to apply that term to most fan favorite veteran profiles. Instead of going out and finding affordable improvement profiles in constructing the roster, he has frequently made the mistake of constructing the roster around old washed up veterans, effectively creating a 23 or 24 man unbalanced active roster. 

    I think he fails to admit his mistakes and tries to spin them by using media access "lackeys" to advance silly themes like "speed ages more slowly than power", to defend his decision to pay a massive premium to sign Crawford into his mid 30's and pass on VMart. Even if those two players were not either or decisions, it's still a PR campaign that is childish and intellectually dishonest. 

    The Braves are one of the best mid to large size models on competent upper management decison making, anticipating moves and market well and adjusting well by not repeating the few mistakes that are made. 

    Renteria, Lugo, Scutaro and Crawford are value mistakes that are simply an escalation of the very same mistake of paying for a career high contract year on players that are not superstar profiles at the position. They are all reactionary moves that were not planned, despite the phony claims that the radar and study on Crawford had gone on for a long time. 

    Bay non-serious-market tender was correct, but a lot of people on this board saw that coming because Bay was a poor fielder and could not consitently handly breaking balls well enough to get a huge multi-year contract.  Bay, as an OF'er and RHB, was not a good enough overall hitter to be a frequent DH, so his age was too old unless he was truly a gifted hitter. He was a good slugging fastball hitter, but that was it, and made it clear that his performance decline with age would be steep.

    I gave Theo the benefit of the doubt for years, and still consider him to be better than the average GM. But that isn't saying much because the GM pool is mostly made up of political hires that aren't based upon merit. Theo has always been a bean counter guy who isn't a baseball genius. Given the pay, Red Sox ownership could and should do a lot better.  
     
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    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

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    [QUOTE]Common people, other than an outstanding maneuver in 2004 in regards to trading Nomar and bringing in some prime team energizers, Theo Epstein has not been all that good. While Bill-806 is parading how awesome Theo is (now) I feel the need to rain on the parade.... Tell me what he has done that any other GM could not do with the same blank checkbook ?  Tell me please. John Hart, Omar hasta Minaya, and Brian Cashman have all done the same - spend, sign, and repeat steps 1&2.  Please tell me what genius was involved in signing Carl Crawford...  I will answer for you:  Carl was the best available on the market and not the best available for the team.  Thus Theo signed him with complete disregard to what makes sense for the team, not only now but long-term. John Lackey?  Like some low budget team who HAD to make a big off-season signing Theo took the best that was available - and not one of the best pitchers in MLB.  I could go on and on... poor planning on finding Tek's heir.... the shortstop fiasco year in and year out..... JD Drew.......... blah blah blah The homers are blind .... as blind as homer himself. You need a reality check homer's .... Theo inEpstein is flawed and flawed as much as any GM in the history of baseball.   Feedback welcomed.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Once again, you are out of your mind.  You can point out any mistakes with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.  Theo has the guts to make tough decisions and live with the consequences. He lives with the rants of Monday morning QBs like you.  As many have said time and again, whether or not you like Drew, he got a comparable deal for the market at the time.  Theo has made mistakes and also hit it big.  He has guided the franchise in the strengthening of the entire organization.  The young talent has been mostly developed under Theo's leadership.  So, rail away if you must and lead YOUR merry band of followers.  I am happy to be a "homer" and trust that Theo will be bold and look out for the best interests of the organization for the long term and the shot term.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from the-yazzer. Show the-yazzer's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    In Response to Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....:
    [QUOTE]Great in developing the farm system, generally lousy in FA moves, with a few exceptions. Theo doesn't have to be that good because the $$$ keeps flowing in, so when he makes a Lugo, Renteria, type mistake, the Sox can just eat the cost and move on, whereas those types of deals would be crippling to many franchises.  Theo and Cashman get way too much praise considering they are essentially playing in a different financial league than 90% of teams in MLB.  Not too many teams pay their 4th OF 9 million, their 4th starter 16 million, and their 5th starter 8 million.  People like to say that "anyone could've coached Micheal Jordan to championships" well likewise, anyone could build a pretty good ballclub with a 170 million dollar payroll. 
    Posted by Calmy[/QUOTE]

    it hasn't been determined yet whether this is a pretty good ballclub.
    for THEO'S sake it better end up one, as it better end up in the WS.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    Theo has never made a tough baseball decision in his life. A tough decison would have been to trade Lowell for a low level prospect, last year, in light of fan backlash.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    It is still early but the only FA signing that Theo's has done that has ever left me totally scratching my head is Carl Crawford.

    I know JD Drew has always been a fan favorite to ridicule but he was the best option to fill a gapping hole in RF, has delivered what the RS expected from him. Lugo was a bit of reach. Renteria was a dirtwaterlover points out was a logic signing, at market value that did not perform well here and the RS cut bait on it fast not waiting to see if it was an off year or an inability to thrive in the market.

    The Lackey expectations, like Drew's are based on what he is paid without level setting that to the market. Lackey isn't paid like Lee or Sabathia, he is paid like Lowe and Burnett. Dice K? Folks the RS in the worst way had to go to FA market after 2006 to get a front line starter. The choices were Zito, Schmidt and Matsuzaka. Dice K is in hindsight the pick of the litter and the RS won a WS with him in their rotation the year they signed him. While we are now absurb with this uberteam spirit, how often have WS championships happened in Boston? 3 times in 89 years.

    And for all I can't get my mind around the money and years for Carl Crawford and just how and where he fits in this roster ( a situation I am sure I share with many of you ) it is early to call it a total failure 40 odd games into the contract.
     
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    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    Crawford will likely, like almost all younger and middle ages players, return to around his career averages. However, no, it's not too early to call him a bust. "A total loss" is exageration for argument sake. To even use that phrase is proof that his contract decision was a bust. It's one thing to take career averages and pay a market comparison with other non-superstar non-slugger profiles, but that's not the case with Crawford. In addition, they already had Bellsbury for 2 more years and could have resigned him as a FA for a small fraction of years and base on what was foolishly offered to Crawford.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    Despite one team title during his long tenure in NY, A-Roid is a bust, as there is no way any attendance or sales are boosted to offset this disaster contract. I don't know if it was true, but it wouldn't surprise me if Theo was cheerleading the efforts to aquire A-Roid. It would be modus operendi for Theo.

    I opposed Tex, advocated Beltre for last year and AGon for this year and beyond. Theo got all of these right, but only by accident on Tex.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from the-yazzer. Show the-yazzer's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    do you really believe DREW has delivered what the SOX expected of him?

    you might want to re-think that one.

    and CRAWFORD will, also, never deliver what the SOX expect of him.
    a terrible signing when the SOX had so many other weaknesses to correct.

    LACKEY--fugghettaboutit!

    DREW, LACKEY, and CRAWFORD are ALL on THEO!
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    In Response to Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....:
    [QUOTE]Common people, other than an outstanding maneuver in 2004 in regards to trading Nomar and bringing in some prime team energizers, Theo Epstein has not been all that good. While Bill-806 is parading how awesome Theo is (now) I feel the need to rain on the parade.... Tell me what he has done that any other GM could not do with the same blank checkbook ?  Tell me please. John Hart, Omar hasta Minaya, and Brian Cashman have all done the same - spend, sign, and repeat steps 1&2.  Please tell me what genius was involved in signing Carl Crawford...  I will answer for you:  Carl was the best available on the market and not the best available for the team.  Thus Theo signed him with complete disregard to what makes sense for the team, not only now but long-term. John Lackey?  Like some low budget team who HAD to make a big off-season signing Theo took the best that was available - and not one of the best pitchers in MLB.  I could go on and on... poor planning on finding Tek's heir.... the shortstop fiasco year in and year out..... JD Drew.......... blah blah blah The homers are blind .... as blind as homer himself. You need a reality check homer's .... Theo inEpstein is flawed and flawed as much as any GM in the history of baseball.   Feedback welcomed.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    While I get the impression most of your post in tongue-in-cheek, I'll bite anyway.  (BTW, if it is, you're way too good at this.)  While Theo has certainly made mistakes via free agency.  Lugo and Renteria were certifiable disasters.  Lackey certainly appears to be boing that way.  Dice-K was very highly touted coming out of Japan.  If anything, the biggest problem with going after him was the $51.1M posting fee; not chasing after him.  Drew being a bust is debatable.  I actually like Drew, and I think he's been incredibly productive.  Then again, I understand not only how runs are created, and the importance of defense and baserunning whereas most fans don't have a clue.  (That's not a joke by the way.) 

    There have certainly been others, but free agency is risky anyway.  Most players hit free agency around between 30-32 years of age when most players are coming out of the prime and into their decline phases.  When teams sign free agents, they know the players they sign probably won't provide enough value to justify the contract.  The key is to get the best value possible. 

    Lastly, just b/c a GM has a large payroll budget, it doesn't guarantee putting a winning team on the field.  The Cubs, Mets, and Dodgers have been failing to put serious contenders on the field for years despite huge payrolls.
     
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    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    In Response to Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....:
    [QUOTE]It is still early but the only FA signing that Theo's has done that has ever left me totally scratching my head is Carl Crawford. And for all I can't get my mind around the money and years for Carl Crawford and just how and where he fits in this roster ( a situation I am sure I share with many of you ) it is early to call it a total failure 40 odd games into the contract.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    I wondered about the Crawford signing 'from the get-go' too in that I saw no place for him on the team.  I believe that Theo signed him for four reasons.  1) he was the most talented player available, 2) having him on the team removes the uncertainty of what to do if/when Ellsbury/Boras walks, 3) it kept him from the Yankees (Remember?  Crawford's going to the Y's was assumed to be a done deal before the Sox signed him), and 4) it was a psychological move to bolster the spirits in Boston, both of the team and the fans.

    Yes, Crawford has created a logjam both offensively and defensively this year.  Let's wait until next year to see how it shakes out.  There may be some long-term plans in place that we don't know about.  Plans such as an OF of Reddick, Ells, Crawford.  

    One difference between the FO and us is that the FO has long-term plans while we tend to think about THIS YEAR.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    In Response to Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....:
    [QUOTE]do you really believe DREW has delivered what the SOX expected of him? you might want to re-think that one. and CRAWFORD will, also, never deliver what the SOX expect of him. a terrible signing when the SOX had so many other weaknesses to correct. LACKEY--fugghettaboutit! DREW, LACKEY, and CRAWFORD are ALL on THEO!
    Posted by the-yazzer[/QUOTE]

    Yes, Drew delivered about what was expected.  he even stepped it up and carried the load while Papi was out for much of 2008.  The huge grand slam was worth the entire contract.  He dominated again in post season 2008.  All this while mastering very tough Fenway right field.  We would all want more but i'm pretty happy overall.  Enjoy whining about Lackey and Crawford while you can because both will be fine.  BTW, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Bard, Lowrie, Iggy, and Agon are all on Theo, too.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    In Response to Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good..... : it hasn't been determined yet whether this is a pretty good ballclub. for THEO'S sake it better end up one, as it better end up in the WS.
    Posted by the-yazzer[/QUOTE]

    why, are you whine him to death if it doesn't?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxlaxer12. Show redsoxlaxer12's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    yea ok
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    In Response to Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....:
    [QUOTE]do you really believe DREW has delivered what the SOX expected of him? you might want to re-think that one. and CRAWFORD will, also, never deliver what the SOX expect of him. a terrible signing when the SOX had so many other weaknesses to correct. DREW and CRAWFORD are on THEO!
    Posted by the-yazzer[/QUOTE]Yes I do believe Drew delivered what they expected and that the fans expected more. I think they knew that they would get a good OPS, that the Fenway insured his HR totals were never going to get into the 30's, the chances were good he'd never have 100 RBI.

    They knew however he'd play Fenway's RF extremely well, get on base about 38% of the time have a .800 plus OPS. You bet the knew his career averages coming into that contract and that is where he has performed.

    But I suppose most folks here would have played Adam Stern in RF in 2007 rather than sign Drew? As with lackey, the problem here is that RS fans thought $70M bought us another Manny Ramirez, when $70M in that market bought an Abreu profile. And while Abreu produced more RBI in exchange he is a butcher in RF. Even today, it buys Jason Bay.

    Drew was not a winfall but he performed to his career stat sheet. And at 31 (his age at signing) the RS did not anticipate a bounce IMO. In fact his 162 game averages held up better than one had a right to expect them to in the first four years of his contract.

    To call Drew a terrible signing reflects that he did not meet your expectations not the reality of his performance on the field in his RS tenure. I know if is shocking that a .848 OPS, with 60 plus RBI, HRs in the high teens, 80 runs scored and near bullet proof defense in MLB toughest RF is worth $14M a year but that is the reality of 21st MLB veteran salaries.

    How novel, a JD drew debate on BDC.

    Just my takes 
     
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    Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....

    In Response to Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good.....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Let us ADMIT it, our GM really is not all that good..... : Yes I do believe Drew delivered what they expected and that the fans expected more. I think they knew that they would get a good OPS, that the Fenway insured his HR totals were never going to get into the 30's, the chances were good he'd never have 100 RBI. They knew however he'd play Fenway's RF extremely well, get on base about 38% of the time have a .800 plus OPS. You bet the knew his career averages coming into that contract and that is where he has performed. But I suppose most folks here would have played Adam Stern in RF in 2007 rather than sign Drew? As with lackey, the problem here is that RS fans thought $70M bought us another Manny Ramirez, when $70M in that market bought an Abreu profile. And while Abreu produced more RBI in exchange he is a butcher in RF. Even today, it buys Jason Bay. Drew was not a winfall but he performed to his career stat sheet. And at 31 (his age at signing) the RS did not anticipate a bounce IMO. In fact his 162 game averages held up better than one had a right to expect them to in the first four years of his contract. To call Drew a terrible signing reflects that he did not meet your expectations not the reality of his performance on the field in his RS tenure. I know if is shocking that a .848 OPS, with 60 plus RBI, HRs in the high teens, 80 runs scored and near bullet proof defense in MLB toughest RF is worth $14M a year but that is the reality of 21st MLB veteran salaries. How novel, a JD drew debate on BDC. Just my takes 
    Posted by fivekatz
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    nevertheless 5K, despite the sysephean task of shouting down the Drew bashing zombie legions, I greatly appreciate your well-laid-out and succint explaining of the actual value of JD Drew, the expectations of the club vs. the crazy expectations of the fans, and the real world understanding of the 2006 FA market for right fielders.  Many thanks.
     
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