Let's talk WMB....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    Moonslav59 usually inundates us with a plethora of stats to bolster his opinions. Here they are lacking but I nonetheless find myself agreeing with him on MWB. When I watch his at-bats I see a guy who can't read pitches at all. He is still constantly fooled by curve balls and when he tries to wait on one he can't catch up to heaters. His major league career may not be in jeopardy, but maybe the guy needs to go to a less pressure packed environment such as Miami to be able to work it out.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:
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    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    It's time we think about moving Bogey to 3B and finding a SS, or at least a bridge to Marrero or Betts (moved to SS).


     


    Sox4ever


     


    [/QUOTE]
    The Red Sox seem comfortable with Bogaerts at SS. Let's keep in mind that his defense is on par with most offense first SS in baseball. Just because he isn't good doesn't mean he isn't good enough.


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    According to fangraph's, he has one of the worst defensive numbers in MLB so far.


    At the SS position, we need better.


    His bat would be just about equally as high ranked among 3Bmen as well- if he was moved there.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Moonslav59 usually inundates us with a plethora of stats to bolster his opinions. Here they are lacking but I nonetheless find myself agreeing with him on MWB. When I watch his at-bats I see a guy who can't read pitches at all. He is still constantly fooled by curve balls and when he tries to wait on one he can't catch up to heaters. His major league career may not be in jeopardy, but maybe the guy needs to go to a less pressure packed environment such as Miami to be able to work it out. [/QUOTE]
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    The stats are there, but I think anyone with an open mind, who watches all the games, should know by now that WMB is not a plus defensive 3Bman, is not a plus OBP guy, and only really brings occasional bursts of power to the table.


    He is still young enough to grow and learn, but on a team competing for a ring, it's hard to have 3 guys all at once like this.  All at key positions: SS, CF and 3B.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    If you commit to a young player - then commit to him...moving Bogie over as Moon suggests and reassigning WMB is counterproductive imo.  We really dont have anyone to replace these guys and the upside is pretty huge if they improve and mature into their respective positions.  I didnt expect to win the World Series this year but with these young players contributing and getting better, we can expect that for many years in the future. Patience.


    As always - 100% correct!


     
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Moonslav59 usually inundates us with a plethora of stats to bolster his opinions. Here they are lacking but I nonetheless find myself agreeing with him on MWB. When I watch his at-bats I see a guy who can't read pitches at all. He is still constantly fooled by curve balls and when he tries to wait on one he can't catch up to heaters. His major league career may not be in jeopardy, but maybe the guy needs to go to a less pressure packed environment such as Miami to be able to work it out.


    [/QUOTE]

    I don't disagree with any of the negatives you are seeing in WMB's batting.  But I do see a different context.  Its one thing if a guy has problems with curves balls and can therefore not generate offense.  But, if a guy Ks a lot because he has trouble with recognition, but still manages a .350+ OBP and a high OPS, can we live with it?  We are all in love with Mike Napoli at the moment.  But, of course he is going to spend the better part of two months this summer looking like he has never faced major league pitching before.  In the final analysis though, we can live with it because he will be a significant producer.  WMB got better with pitch recognition after his Rhode Island rehab, and, despite his time on DL early this year, is onbviouslly seeing better at the plate, even if he still looks befuddled often enough.  Some guys fall into the category of When They Look Bad, They Look BAAAAAAD/when they look good they look GOOOOD.  To me, this is what I envision WMB being this year.  We shall see.  

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    Moonslav59 usually inundates us with a plethora of stats to bolster his opinions. Here they are lacking but I nonetheless find myself agreeing with him on MWB. When I watch his at-bats I see a guy who can't read pitches at all. He is still constantly fooled by curve balls and when he tries to wait on one he can't catch up to heaters. His major league career may not be in jeopardy, but maybe the guy needs to go to a less pressure packed environment such as Miami to be able to work it out. [/QUOTE]
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    The stats are there, but I think anyone with an open mind, who watches all the games, should know by now that WMB is not a plus defensive 3Bman, is not a plus OBP guy, and only really brings occasional bursts of power to the table.


     


    He is still young enough to grow and learn, but on a team competing for a ring, it's hard to have 3 guys all at once like this.  All at key positions: SS, CF and 3B.


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    OK, right now he is sporting an OBP north of .350 and, in my eyes, is playing MUCH better third base.  


     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    Moonslav59 usually inundates us with a plethora of stats to bolster his opinions. Here they are lacking but I nonetheless find myself agreeing with him on MWB. When I watch his at-bats I see a guy who can't read pitches at all. He is still constantly fooled by curve balls and when he tries to wait on one he can't catch up to heaters. His major league career may not be in jeopardy, but maybe the guy needs to go to a less pressure packed environment such as Miami to be able to work it out. [/QUOTE]
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    The stats are there, but I think anyone with an open mind, who watches all the games, should know by now that WMB is not a plus defensive 3Bman, is not a plus OBP guy, and only really brings occasional bursts of power to the table.


     


    He is still young enough to grow and learn, but on a team competing for a ring, it's hard to have 3 guys all at once like this.  All at key positions: SS, CF and 3B.


    [/QUOTE]


    I pretty much agree with you.  I miss Beltre.


    Not sure I would say 3B is a key position though.  Offensively it is.  If you get D out of it is is a bonus.


    Replacing Youk w/ WMB first thing I was concerned about was looking 80+ points on the OBP and forcing an extra 10 pitches per game of the starters..........

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    Beltre was a beast and sorely missed...


    As always - 100% correct!


     
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:


     


     


     


     


     


    Yup, we have both been thinking this may happen moon.  I personally can't let Middy off the hook as easy as some because just because of his time spent on the DL.  He has pretty much been the same guy offensively for some time so outside of having a few little hot streaks not much has changed.  Waiting for him to improve offensively is almost as worrisome as expecting another trip to the DL at some point.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    I agree we may need to start looking for the right package centered around Middy to bring in another quality bat.  Bogy to 3B and a new SS might help get us a bit more motivated to go on a run.  Not sure what that package should be but I'm sure the FO agrees, especially after already sending him down last season due to poor performance.


     


     


     




    The only points I would take issue with is the "pretty much the same guy offensively for some time".  First off, sometime, even if one cannot give him DL allowance, is still a season and a half.  The first year and a half of anyones career is generally not enough time to assume that the body of work is what it is and what it ever shall be.  Secondly, he has hardly been the "same guy".  Like many young major leaguers, he has actually been wildly fluctuating in his plate identity.  In his 2012 call-up, he came on like gang-busters.  Levelled off when guys got the book on him, but left enough to be excited about last year.  But, he couldn't hot the broad side of a barn during early 2013, so he got demoted.  he re-tooled and came back up a much better hitter, but still subject to poor pitch recognition and still with the inability to get around on certain pitches.  This early season, Dl stint has made it hard to figure, but, he is showing much better approach at the plate.  So, how can we know anything for certain about WMB with only 40 plate appearance in 2014 and a wild fluctuating first year in the show?  Look, I am not saying that I feel great about the possibilities of WMB succeeding.  I just don't think we can close the book on him.  He has been anything but "the same guy" in his early career.


     


    [/QUOTE]

    It comes down to the same guy if you use the words "offensive  inconsistency" spaceman.  It doesn't matter how many little hot streaks a player has if he ultimately still ends up with a low to below average OBP, less power than everyone predicted frequent DL stints and a lame duck in our offense more often than not.  Our expectations were for Will to be our middle of the order big bat.


    I do agree it still could improve but in the eyes of the FO and his 2013 demotion for the same reasons?  We can only guess at the outcome if it continues.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

     


    [/QUOTE]

    It comes down to the same guy if you use the words "offensive  inconsistency" spaceman.  It doesn't matter how many little hot streaks a player has if he ultimately still ends up with a low to below average OBP, less power than everyone predicted frequent DL stints and a lame duck in our offense more often than not.  Our expectations were for Will to be our middle of the order big bat.


     


    I do agree it still could improve but in the eyes of the FO and his 2013 demotion for the same reasons?  We can only guess at the outcome if it continues.


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    Well, I agree, its anyones guess at this point.  I just dont think we can write him off yet:


    Low OBP?  From his return to Boston last August through the playoffs he sported a pretty decent .351 OBP, and he is north of .350 this season.


    Less power than we all dreamed?  Likely.  But still, if he can knock out 20 a year and play pepper with the monster, definitely good enough.  No, he may not be the middle of the order that many (not 'we all', I for one never had that expectation) thought, but it is within the realm of possibility that he can be a good 5.  Streaky?  Yeah, pretty sure he is never going to be anything else.


    To me, its just a matter of the DL thing.  That is the sticking point.  Yes, absolutely, he needs to stay healthy.  But I just dont see the failure that you are predicting.  He has been solid, if streaky, since he came back up last year.  I am going to give him, as i said, a month to get in stride before I jump to comclusions.  


    Lets have this talk again in mid-June.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:





     






     






     






     






     






     






     







    It comes down to the same guy if you use the words "offensive  inconsistency" spaceman.  It doesn't matter how many little hot streaks a player has if he ultimately still ends up with a low to below average OBP, less power than everyone predicted frequent DL stints and a lame duck in our offense more often than not.  Our expectations were for Will to be our middle of the order big bat.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    I do agree it still could improve but in the eyes of the FO and his 2013 demotion for the same reasons?  We can only guess at the outcome if it continues.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


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    Well, I agree, its anyones guess at this point.  I just dont think we can write him off yet:


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    Low OBP?  From his return to Boston last August through the playoffs he sported a pretty decent .351 OBP, and he is north of .350 this season.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    Less power than we all dreamed?  Likely.  But still, if he can knock out 20 a year and play pepper with the monster, definitely good enough.  No, he may not be the middle of the order that many (not 'we all', I for one never had that expectation) thought, but it is within the realm of possibility that he can be a good 5.  Streaky?  Yeah, pretty sure he is never going to be anything else.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    To me, its just a matter of the DL thing.  That is the sticking point.  Yes, absolutely, he needs to stay healthy.  But I just dont see the failure that you are predicting.  He has been solid, if streaky, since he came back up last year.  I am going to give him, as i said, a month to get in stride before I jump to comclusions.  


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    Lets have this talk again in mid-June.


     


     


     


    [/QUOTE]

    Look at where Middy's stats read after his first two AB's so far tonight 200BA, .322OBP dropping rapidly and a .388 SLG.  This has been the norm spaceman but I'm more than willing to give him another month or two if we can stay close in the standings.  I'm not sure our FO will wait that long to make a move if there is little improvement.


    Happy to update: Perfect time to get a big hit, need more of it.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    Interesting from moonslav.  He's ready to dump Middlebrooks now and look for a new SS, also now.  


    Actually, I wanted to trade Middy a long time ago, when his stock was higher than it is now.  I am not for "dumping" Middy now. I am open to trading him for something decent, but I still think he has potential and value, and I am not sure we'd get what he is worth in trade at this point. As for the SS position, I was never happy with Bogey at SS. That's not new either. Bogey should be at 3B, and that is the main reason I wanted Middy traded or moved to 1B.


    In other words, the stupid experiment is over and it's time to clean house. 


    I am not for cleaning house, but may be open to the idea at the trade deadline, if we are 14 games out. We are still very much in the hunt, and these young guys need time to make adjustments or prove they can't.


    Bradley can't hit, so he probably needs to go as well. 


    JBJ is far from the weakest offensive link in this line-up, and he is a force on defense.


    Put Vic or Sizemore in CF, the other in RF, and trade a bunch of guys to get a big bat for LF, preferably Stanton.  Fundamental to this approach has to be the conviction that Cherington is clueless and Farrell is too--just one year after a magnificent and totally unexpected year and WS win.   Me, I'm fine with what those guys decide to do. 


    So, these two guys went from genius to clueless in just a few months, based on about a month of baseball. We knew there would be a learning curve for the 3 young guys (I included Middy). I understand the frustration. I understand the gamble we took going with 3 young guys at key positions, but they need more time, and luckily we are still very much in the race. We have salary space to make a big move at the deadline. Take a deep breath and relax.


    Sox4ever

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:[QUOTE]In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]  Moonslav59 usually inundates us with a plethora of stats to bolster his opinions. Here they are lacking but I nonetheless find myself agreeing with him on MWB. When I watch his at-bats I see a guy who can't read pitches at all. He is still constantly fooled by curve balls and when he tries to wait on one he can't catch up to heaters. His major league career may not be in jeopardy, but maybe the guy needs to go to a less pressure packed environment such as Miami to be able to work it out.


    [/QUOTE]
    I don't disagree with any of the negatives you are seeing in WMB's batting.  But I do see a different context.  Its one thing if a guy has problems with curves balls and can therefore not generate offense.  But, if a guy Ks a lot because he has trouble with recognition, but still manages a .350+ OBP and a high OPS, can we live with it?  We are all in love with Mike Napoli at the moment.  But, of course he is going to spend the better part of two months this summer looking like he has never faced major league pitching before.  In the final analysis though, we can live with it because he will be a significant producer.  WMB got better with pitch recognition after his Rhode Island rehab, and, despite his time on DL early this year, is onbviouslly seeing better at the plate, even if he still looks befuddled often enough.  Some guys fall into the category of When They Look Bad, They Look BAAAAAAD/when they look good they look GOOOOD.  To me, this is what I envision WMB being this year.  We shall see.  [/QUOTE]
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    The difference between Middy and Napoli is that Middy has never had a good OBP, even in the minors. I don't really expect him to ever get near .350. I'm OK with a .315 OBP, if you hit 30 jacks and knock in 90+. I think Middy can do that, but he may not either. His poor fielding tilts the balance for me.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In one at bat today Will has a 1.000 average

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    and a 2.000 OPS... Will is on FIRE!!!

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    Moon, I don't think "poor" is a good description of Middlebrooks. He's made some nice plays and really hasn't butchered much. He's been improving as a fielder. I'm not saying he's Mike Lowell and there's still room for improvement, but he's not a butcher either.


     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from chickenandboose. Show chickenandboose's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    Middy is having a good night tonight... I say give him one more chance :)

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    OK, right now he is sporting an OBP north of .350 and, in my eyes, is playing MUCH better third base.  


    Much Better than what? His horrible 2013 season on defense?


    He's been bad, and his UZR/150 shows my eyes are not deceiving me (-7.7).


    I think his OBP was about .333 before tonight's game.


    Sox4ever

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    Like I said earlier on this thread, a different player each night will come thru this season.  Tonight's night was Will Middlebrook's turn. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In response to royf19's comment:


     


    Moon, I don't think "poor" is a good description of Middlebrooks. He's made some nice plays and really hasn't butchered much. He's been improving as a fielder. I'm not saying he's Mike Lowell and there's still room for improvement, but he's not a butcher either.


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    I never said he was a butcher.


     


    He's 24th out of 32 MLB 3Bmen with 120+ innings at 3B. To me, that is poor.


     


    If you combine 2013 with 2014, there are 31 MLB 3Bmen with over 500 innings: Middy places 25th at -7.4 UZR/150 (21st out of 24 with 900+ innings). Again, to me that is "poor". Not "butcher" poor, but pretty bad.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to maxbialystock's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    Interesting from moonslav.  He's ready to dump Middlebrooks now and look for a new SS, also now.  In other words, the stupid experiment is over and it's time to clean house.  Bradley can't hit, so he probably needs to go as well.  Put Vic or Sizemore in CF, the other in RF, and trade a bunch of guys to get a big bat for LF, preferably Stanton.  Fundamental to this approach has to be the conviction that Cherington is clueless and Farrell is too--just one year after a magnificent and totally unexpected year and WS win.   Me, I'm fine with what those guys decide to do. 


     


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    Bradley doesn't have much time either. If he cannot hit the baseball its back to AAA.


     


    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE


     


     


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    Problem is there is really no one better down in pawtucket right now.  No one better to replace JBJ and garin is not really a fix for Middy either.  Nava has been hitting but also has been looking at strikes the way JBJ does.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    I can't believe I am in the position of defending Middlebrooks. I was not impressed with him from the start, while some fans were all excited about his HR power. Now I think it's time for patience with him and hope he stays healthy to really see what he can do for a full season. If he gets injured again, I would pull the plug on him. But what harm can be done by letting him get a substantial number of games under his belt this season before making the final judgement?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

     


     Is a game-winning hit enough to buy him just one more night in the majors from the Middlebrooks undertakers?
     
     
     
     
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

     


    The difference between Middy and Napoli is that Middy has never had a good OBP, even in the minors. I don't really expect him to ever get near .350. I'm OK with a .315 OBP, if you hit 30 jacks and knock in 90+. I think Middy can do that, but he may not either. His poor fielding tilts the balance for me.


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    Moon, I feel like you are living in the past and not willing to budge on this one.  


    First, if you were to wipe away an admittedly amateur-hour beginning to his career at third and just pick up this season, can you really say he is that poor a fioelder?  I think he has looked solid, at the very least.  Vastly improved in any case.  But that is subjective, so lets let it go.


    Second, from the time of his recall last year through the playoffs, his OBP was north of .350, and this year he is at .344 despite his .215 average.  I think we can glean from this that he worked out some issues at Pawticket last summer and emerged a more canny hitter.  In any case, his post recall numbers do not reflect your insistence that he is a poor OBP guy.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Let's talk WMB....

    We should probably revisit this thread in a month.  The burden of proof though is on Middy - for D and OBP.  I need to see more consistent good D and an OBP of at least 333 although if he slugs OVER 500 I won't care what his OBP is........

     
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