Losing mentality

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Losing mentality

    Last year , the Sox had a monumental collapse in September. It was historic and almost beyond belief.  I think that , as this unfolded, it caused a change in the mentality of the team. They started to believe that they would find a way to lose.  It has continued into this season.  It is very hard to succeed in baseball , or in anything , without confidence and self assurance.  That seems to be lacking in this team.  I am sure that the players and management would deny it , but it looks like they are expecting to lose.  Individually and collectively , I think they have lost confidence in their ability to win.  In tight situations , the pitchers cannot make the good pitch , and the hitters cannot come up with the big hit.  It has become contagious.  In baseball , as in life , it becomes too easy to accept failure,  make excuses, and blame others for your lack of success.  The Sox need to find a way to turn this whole thing around.  Right now , nothing is working.  The whole organization is a mess.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    It could be.  I always thought that part of the problem last year was that we didn't think we could lose.  That, by the end of August, it was almost a foregone conclusion that we were cruising to the WS.  And that by the time we learned we were in danger, it was too late.  It feels just the opposite right now.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    It is a losing mentality--it is a trickle down affect from the manager.
    He should go back to July and start essentially the same lineup excluding Middlebrooks, Papi, Gonzo, Crawford and Shoppach.  OOOpps that's over i/2 the lineup.

    How about:
    Aviles
    Pods --DH
    Ells
    Pedroia
    Ross
    Gomez
    Nava
    Lavarnway
    Ciriaco
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    It is a losing mentality--it is a trickle down affect from the manager.
    He should go back to July and start essentially the same lineup excluding Middlebrooks, Papi, Gonzo, Crawford and Shoppach.  OOOpps that's over i/2 the lineup.

    How about:
    Aviles
    Pods --DH
    Ells
    Pedroia
    Ross
    Gomez
    Nava
    Lavarnway
    Ciriaco
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Last year , the Sox had a monumental collapse in September. It was historic and almost beyond belief.  I think that , as this unfolded, it caused a change in the mentality of the team. They started to believe that they would find a way to lose.  It has continued into this season.  It is very hard to succeed in baseball , or in anything , without confidence and self assurance.  That seems to be lacking in this team.  I am sure that the players and management would deny it , but it looks like they are expecting to lose.  Individually and collectively , I think they have lost confidence in their ability to win.  In tight situations , the pitchers cannot make the good pitch , and the hitters cannot come up with the big hit.  It has become contagious.  In baseball , as in life , it becomes too easy to accept failure,  make excuses, and blame others for your lack of success.  The Sox need to find a way to turn this whole thing around.  Right now , nothing is working.  The whole organization is a mess.



    I agree with one thing you said..."The whole organization is a mess."

    But I believe that the problem is not as much a loss of confidence in winning as much as it is loss of FOCUS. The Red Sox organization's focus for 2012 was Fenway Park's 100th year and not the ballclub...and the fallout from that focus off the field translated to loss of focus on the field.

    The Red Sox organization needs to remember that its the product on the playing field, not the field itself, that makes Fenway Park a special place to visit, because the reality of the situation is that the place, despite all the improvements is still antiquated and a dump.

    Hopefully, the organization's focus in 2013 will return to the product on the field and a return to building a team that learns how to win again.

    I guess with all that said, the OP is correct in that it all translates to a losing mentality!


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthomas43. Show mthomas43's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    Cant pitch, cant hit, emotionally fragile= cant win
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    Can't manage either. And losing is a trickle down from leadership, which is in that dugout.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    dannycater,

    I fully agree that Valentine should have already been fired and also that the losing mentality has not been helped by his many actions.

    But, this year's losing mentality began last year with the firing of Francona.  Not so much that they fired him, but rather how they did it.  The ownership group then followed up that mess with the beginning of the Valentine mess by hiring him over the thoughts of their new general manager.

    That act was followed by keeping assistant coaches in place and not letting the new manager select his own coaches.  Not to say that the guys they kept were not good coaches, but it is very traditional to let the new manager pick his own staff.

    Then the Valentine Mess Era began in public with his chopping at Youkilis in public which lost him the total respect of his team from that minute onward.  If he needed to tell Youkilis that he was not up to  par and was not playing/performing well it clearly should have been done in private. 

    As we know it only got worse with Valentine, but the next biggest blunder to continue to build the losing mentality was not firing this guy in early July when there still was time for a chance to turn things around with a new manager.  (Remember, that I did volunteer my services).

    The ownership group has now made things even worse by "sticking" it to the fans by "sticking" with Valentine for the entire season.   The longer the mess continues the longer it is going to take to clean it up.

    Some times, even if you are rich, you have to admit mistakes and make corrections, and the ownership let me down as a fan by not trying to save this season when it was more than apparent that Valentine was not the man to do the job.

    It will be interesting see if they make a managerial change after the season ends and if their new payroll flexibility can bring in enough good players to get the losing mentality changed around quickly.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    But, this year's losing mentality began last year with the firing of Francona.  

    It began before that.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    But, this year's losing mentality began last year with the firing of Francona.  

    It began before that.



    Aug 30, 2011. Thats the day the Red Sox began their descent into oblivion. Thats when they began to adopt a losing mentality. The team played the Yankees and lost two of three games beginning Aug 30, 2011, and after that they proceeded to lose 17 of the next 23 games. Not much has changed since then, just the names on the roster. Quite a mess Epstein left for the new GM to clean up....
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    Mentality, shmentality. 

    It's all about hitting and pitching, and the Sox rotation has been lousy since September 1, 2011, give or take.  Lester, Beckett, and Buchholz all had bad years this year, and the other guys--Doubront, Cook, Matsuzaka, Morales, Bard, etc--couldn't make up the difference.  The lineup was hitting pretty good until Ortiz went on the DL and AGon went to LA. 

    Winning ain't that easy, especially when your starters keep putting you behind the eight ball.  Last year the Sox hitting knocked in the most runs in MLB, but that couldn't prevent the worst September in MLB history. 


    I will guarantee none of these guys has a "losing mentality."  For their most recent win and a save by Bailey, the entire bench was standing and watching that save and rooting for the guys on the field.   

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    Losing is a disease...I actually feel like Robert Redford walking out of the psychologists team meeting  for the NY Knights. The team sucks, from the President to the Owners to the GM to the Manager and now to the Minor League franchise that for whatever reason is still having a regular beat reporter covering team from several newspapers. If this was LA, no reporter would go to a road game, it would be all AP news and then the home games would be short stories done by interns.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    The way I see it, is the whole appraoch to the game. You don't lose your HR guys, and then continue to try and hit HRs.
    The RS are still swinging for the fences instead of playing fundamental ball. The complexion of the team now, is not condusive to hitting HRs, but rather hitting singles and doubles.
    Agon had it right. He didn't try to do too much with what the pitchers were giving him and just hit the ball where it's pitched. I see so many guys roll over everything trying to jerk the ball out of the park, instead of just a nice line drive stroke.

    This team has always thrived as an OB team, but in the past, had the horses to supply the power.
    We still get on base a lot, but very few runs come as a result of a single or double.
     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    and they still were some 30 games over .500 at one point.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    The Red Sox may have had and may still have some overpaid players, but handing out such large contracts cannot just be blamed on Epstien.

    He may have made recommendations, but the owner certainly signed off on every big contract that the Sox handed out.  If you owned the company would you let anyone else spend such big piles of your money?

    Part of the mistrust than anyone may have with the Sox owner certainly came right after he was quoted as saying that he was not in favor of signing Crawford AFTER Crawford put up a terrible first year in Boston.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    Losing is a disease...I actually feel like Robert Redford walking out of the psychologists team meeting  for the NY Knights. The team sucks, from the President to the Owners to the GM to the Manager and now to the Minor League franchise that for whatever reason is still having a regular beat reporter covering team from several newspapers. If this was LA, no reporter would go to a road game, it would be all AP news and then the home games would be short stories done by interns.



    Baloney.  Losing is what happens when their pitchng and hitting--or maybe just one or the other--is better than yours on any given night.  Losing a lot is what happens when your starting rotation is among the worst in baseball and your normally good lineup is decimated by injuries and trades. 

    Nobody watching last night's game could doubt these guys wanted to win, just as they wanted to win on the recent road trip which went badly. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    Losing is a disease...I actually feel like Robert Redford walking out of the psychologists team meeting  for the NY Knights. The team sucks, from the President to the Owners to the GM to the Manager and now to the Minor League franchise that for whatever reason is still having a regular beat reporter covering team from several newspapers. If this was LA, no reporter would go to a road game, it would be all AP news and then the home games would be short stories done by interns.



    Baloney.  Losing is what happens when their pitchng and hitting--or maybe just one or the other--is better than yours on any given night.  Losing a lot is what happens when your starting rotation is among the worst in baseball and your normally good lineup is decimated by injuries and trades. 

    Nobody watching last night's game could doubt these guys wanted to win, just as they wanted to win on the recent road trip which went badly. 

     




    Losing is getting a lead-off triple, and failing to plate him!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    Losing is a disease...I actually feel like Robert Redford walking out of the psychologists team meeting  for the NY Knights. The team sucks, from the President to the Owners to the GM to the Manager and now to the Minor League franchise that for whatever reason is still having a regular beat reporter covering team from several newspapers. If this was LA, no reporter would go to a road game, it would be all AP news and then the home games would be short stories done by interns.



    Baloney.  Losing is what happens when their pitchng and hitting--or maybe just one or the other--is better than yours on any given night.  Losing a lot is what happens when your starting rotation is among the worst in baseball and your normally good lineup is decimated by injuries and trades. 

    Nobody watching last night's game could doubt these guys wanted to win, just as they wanted to win on the recent road trip which went badly. 

     




    Losing is getting a lead-off triple, and failing to plate him!

     




    And that's a function, very clearly, of weak hitting.  You cite The Natural and seem to have fogotten that Roy Hobbs was an incredible hitter, which is why Robert Redford worse #9 (Ted Williams number) to emphasize that fact.   You appear to think attitude is everything when it is next to nothing.  You want a winning attitude?  First be a great hitter. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    The OP is way off base.  You want a real "losing mentality?"  Look at the Dodgers.  They've brought in some pretty good talent--at a humoungous price (especially the salaries of AGon, CC, and  Beckett)--to go with a pretty good lineup (before adding AGon, Victorino, etc), and they are now 6-11 since AGon showed up. I mean, the Dodgers already had Matt kemp, who is usually billed here OTFB as the greatest outfielder in the NL or the universe or the history of baseball or whatever.  The Dodgers must be because Mattingly doesn't know how to manage or inspire the troops or whatever.

    Or maybe, like every other manager in MLB, Mattingly just needs hitters who consistently hit the ball hard and pitchers who have good stuff and hit their spots.  I don't know, but I'm guessing Mattingly is a pretty good manager, well regarded by the FO and the players, etc, ad nauseum.  But great managers quickly become lousy managers when the hitters stop hitting and the pitchers stop throwing good stuff. 

    Meanwhile, back in Boston Bobby V has one of the worst pitching staffs in MLB--certainly among the bottom 5--and a depleted lineup missing some pretty key guys like Ortiz, AGon, Middlebrooks/Youk, and, for the most part, Ellsbury, who so far has been subpar this year (vs. last year's MVP season).  If that wasn't enough, he's got a reliever who throw public and semi-public tantrums--the same reliever Bobby supported loyally all season long. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    The OP is way off base.  You want a real "losing mentality?"  Look at the Dodgers.  They've brought in some pretty good talent--at a humoungous price (especially the salaries of AGon, CC, and  Beckett)--to go with a pretty good lineup (before adding AGon, Victorino, etc), and they are now 6-11 since AGon showed up. I mean, the Dodgers already had Matt kemp, who is usually billed here OTFB as the greatest outfielder in the NL or the universe or the history of baseball or whatever.  The Dodgers must be because Mattingly doesn't know how to manage or inspire the troops or whatever.

    Or maybe, like every other manager in MLB, Mattingly just needs hitters who consistently hit the ball hard and pitchers who have good stuff and hit their spots.  I don't know, but I'm guessing Mattingly is a pretty good manager, well regarded by the FO and the players, etc, ad nauseum.  But great managers quickly become lousy managers when the hitters stop hitting and the pitchers stop throwing good stuff. 

    Meanwhile, back in Boston Bobby V has one of the worst pitching staffs in MLB--certainly among the bottom 5--and a depleted lineup missing some pretty key guys like Ortiz, AGon, Middlebrooks/Youk, and, for the most part, Ellsbury, who so far has been subpar this year (vs. last year's MVP season).  If that wasn't enough, he's got a reliever who throw public and semi-public tantrums--the same reliever Bobby supported loyally all season long. 

     




    So Max , you think the losing is all physical ?  No mental aspect to the game ? 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    The OP is way off base.  You want a real "losing mentality?"  Look at the Dodgers.  They've brought in some pretty good talent--at a humoungous price (especially the salaries of AGon, CC, and  Beckett)--to go with a pretty good lineup (before adding AGon, Victorino, etc), and they are now 6-11 since AGon showed up. I mean, the Dodgers already had Matt kemp, who is usually billed here OTFB as the greatest outfielder in the NL or the universe or the history of baseball or whatever.  The Dodgers must be because Mattingly doesn't know how to manage or inspire the troops or whatever.

    Or maybe, like every other manager in MLB, Mattingly just needs hitters who consistently hit the ball hard and pitchers who have good stuff and hit their spots.  I don't know, but I'm guessing Mattingly is a pretty good manager, well regarded by the FO and the players, etc, ad nauseum.  But great managers quickly become lousy managers when the hitters stop hitting and the pitchers stop throwing good stuff. 

    Meanwhile, back in Boston Bobby V has one of the worst pitching staffs in MLB--certainly among the bottom 5--and a depleted lineup missing some pretty key guys like Ortiz, AGon, Middlebrooks/Youk, and, for the most part, Ellsbury, who so far has been subpar this year (vs. last year's MVP season).  If that wasn't enough, he's got a reliever who throw public and semi-public tantrums--the same reliever Bobby supported loyally all season long. 

     




    So Max , you think the losing is all physical ?  No mental aspect to the game ? 

     



    I think individual focus--my version of "mental aspect"--is crucial in MLB and hard to sustain with pitchers and hitters taking forever between pitches.  Amphetamines shouldn't just be allowed, they should be mandatory, but of course they are not. 

    I also think managers can affect focus only at the margins.  I think managers have far less effect on their teams than football and basketball coaches do.  Thus Joe Torre was a loser before he went to the Yankees and Francona was a loser in Philly and a winner in Boston. 

    In other words, before anything else, you gotta first have the players.  This year Bobby V has not had the players.  Last year Francona did have the players--the best lineup in MLB in 2011--but still had the worst September in MLB history.  Probably not his fault because the pitching went sour--Beckett, Lester, Bard, and Papelbon, to name a few.  Oh, and Miller. 

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Losing mentality

    In response to Soxchemistry's comment:

     

    Poor DGalehouse, life isn't fair.

     




    Not sure I understand your point.  Nobody ever said life was fair.  I'm doing fine, personally.

     
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