Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    The one that wins. Righjt now based upon history that would be Terry.  So ask this in June
     
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    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    What Jim said.
     
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    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    In Response to Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?:
    What Jim said.
    Posted by LloydDobler



    +1....let's give it more than a week of ST. It's the W's that count
     
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    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    In Response to Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?:
    As far as personality goes, it's Tito in a landslide.
    Posted by davetheknave


    Tito broke the mold on the "nice guys finish last" approach. However, when you let the inmates run the  their own individual course, they will take a chunk of discipline out of the clubhouse after a while. Bobby V is not going to be a Mr nice guy manager. Some will not like him. But, if he gains their confidence, they will buy in to his style. Tony LaRusso was a control freak and it took him a long time to get the players in one taxi. I don't think Bobby V is a control  freak as much as he  is a fundamental guy. He will call out some one and regret it for a time, but he needs to get the players on the same page. I feel that he doesn't care if they like him or not, the Sox are better off.
     
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    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    I think Tito started out well , but became somewhat burned out over time. By the end , he was more of a bystander than a leader.  Bobby V represents a nice change of pace with his enthusiastic , hands - on style. The two championships with Tito will always be remembered and appreciated , especially by those of us who never thought we would live to see one.  I would say that the time is right for a change.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    I don't even understand how you can even ask this question yet?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    Tito is more of a hands off guy, he prefers to let the men be men and not play babysitter. This works with the right group of players ( see: 2004, professionals like Schilling, Nixon, Mueller, Roberts, Varitek , Pedro, Ortiz , Manny , Damon, Mirabelli, Timlin, etc.). That approach only works when you have professional athletes that have pride in themselves and really want to acheive. Yes, that was a veteran team in 2004 , they knew how to prepare for a season without having to have daddy dress them up and tell them to brush their teeth after every meal.

    I would say the 2011 version may have needed a babysitter more than a hands off guy, maybe not. I don't doubt that Valentine knows baseball strategy and is familiar with all the drills, what p*sses me off about the guy is he is a camera hugger and seems to like to open his yap alot....this is why the commentator job with ESPN was more his speed and why I think Tito will not be as entertaining behind a mike, but is better for the dugout of a veteran team.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

     Tito vs. Anybody.  I'll take Anybody.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    In Response to Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?:
     Tito vs. Anybody.  I'll take Anybody.
    Posted by BOSOX1941


    If Vegas had laid odds on that answer from you, I would be a millionaire right about now.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from lowelll. Show lowelll's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    The real question is does CHB gets his material from the crackpots on this forum or is CHB one of the crackpots?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    From what I've read so far, the only thing about Francona's style that I didn't agree with is letting players drive their own cars to spring training games instead of going as a team on the bus.

    We'll see how the in-game stuff goes. Tito gets a bit of a bad rap when it comes to being hands off. He wasn't bunting or playing small ball, but he would hit and run in the certain situations and and would bunt in certain situations, especially later in the years once he seen what players were capable of doing. Just because another manager might bunt more doesn't make him a better manager. Sciocia's team ran themselves into more outs than they gained with some of the stuff they did. And I don't know how many times I've watched the Sox play, and see the other team bunt more in moving players over, only to see that guy stranded at second or third and the bunt being nothing more than a wasted out.

    I also think Francona was better with bullpens than given credit for. Take last year. The team had just three dependable starters for the first 2 1/2 months and just two for the next 2 1/2 months yet they won 83 games after five  month and on pace for close to 100 wins. It wasn't all because of the offense. I thought he handled the bullpen great to that point, considering how much starters like Miller, Weiland and Lackey were constantly getting shelled.

    And look at the starters in 1995. Despite what might have been the worst starting rotation in the Tito/Theo era, he got 95 wins out of that team and again, it wasn't simply because of the offense. He handled the bullpen great that year even if he stuck with Foulke a bit too long.

    Francona was an excellent manager who got pehaps burned out in the last year. And if Bard didn't blow up like he did late in the year and if Papelbon didn't blow two saves in September, the Sox still might have won 94 games or so and made a playoff run.

    Valentine will be different. But being different isn't better and it isn't worse. It's just better. Let's see Valentime win two W.S. with the Sox. Then we'll see whose style is better.
     
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    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    In Response to Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?:
       GOOD POST/QUESTION........  AS YOU KNOW, I WAS/AM A TITO GUY..... HOWEVER, JUST AS DICK WILLIAMS HAD TO DO WITH THE FAT-CATS OF THE 60'S, BOBBY V. WILL HAVE TO DO THE SAME THING (ALL-BE-IT) WITH A LITTLE MORE  "P C" INVOLVED.  8 YEARS OF TITO LED TO HIS OWN DEMISE.....  A LOT LIKE 8 YEARS OF THE SAME PLAYERS IN WASHINGTON D C ......  FOR SURE, THIS WILL BE AN INTERESTING & FUN YEAR...  ENJOY !!!!
    Posted by Bill-806


    You have no idea about the 67 RS do you????
    The RS did not have fat cats on the 67 team. They had a bunch of kids Andrews, Scott, Smith, all first full year players Petro, Lonborg in 3rd year, Foy 2nd full year, TC 4th year, Ryan had 2 years, Gibson was a rookie, and Jose in his 6th year.
    The pitching was a bunch of guys from other teams and about 3 or 4 rookies.

    Williams was brought in not because of FAT CATS. He was brought in to teach the team how good they really were.
    The issue of 25 cabs for 25 guys was taken care during the off season as the roster difference from 1965/66 to 1967 is remarkably different.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mjnmjn. Show mjnmjn's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    I was always a big Tito fan. he was the manager that ended the 86 year drought. I thought he was politic and professional with the players. I hated it when they let him go and brought in Valentine. I perceived him to be a clown with a big mouth. Well he seems to have the big mouth, but I must give him his due. ST seems more organized and active this year. The players are more organized and working harder that in the past. I don't know if this will translate into wins during the season, but in the past couple of seasons the Sox did not appear ready to play when the season started and were poor in baseball fundamentals. Bobby is working on both. This would seem to be to the team's advantage. Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong about Valentine, but I will always be a big Francona supporter.
     
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    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    In Response to Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?:
       GOOD POST/QUESTION........  AS YOU KNOW, I WAS/AM A TITO GUY..... HOWEVER, JUST AS DICK WILLIAMS HAD TO DO WITH THE FAT-CATS OF THE 60'S, BOBBY V. WILL HAVE TO DO THE SAME THING (ALL-BE-IT) WITH A LITTLE MORE  "P C" INVOLVED.  8 YEARS OF TITO LED TO HIS OWN DEMISE.....  A LOT LIKE 8 YEARS OF THE SAME PLAYERS IN WASHINGTON D C ......  FOR SURE, THIS WILL BE AN INTERESTING & FUN YEAR...  ENJOY !!!!
    Posted by Bill-806


    Yeah 8 years of Dubya certainly was a strain on this country...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    This column is a classic set-up by Shaughnessy.  He calls Valentine the 'smarter-than-everybody' manager.  That sounds like a tag Dan will be using regularly.  If Valentine has problems, Dan will be first in line to use all the smart stuff against him.

    Also of note: Shaughnessy and Francona are working on a book together.
     
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    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    When Bobby has 2 rings w/ RS then lets talk!
     
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    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    In Response to Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?:
    From what I've read so far, the only thing about Francona's style that I didn't agree with is letting players drive their own cars to spring training games instead of going as a team on the bus. We'll see how the in-game stuff goes. Tito gets a bit of a bad rap when it comes to being hands off. He wasn't bunting or playing small ball, but he would hit and run in the certain situations and and would bunt in certain situations, especially later in the years once he seen what players were capable of doing. Just because another manager might bunt more doesn't make him a better manager. Sciocia's team ran themselves into more outs than they gained with some of the stuff they did. And I don't know how many times I've watched the Sox play, and see the other team bunt more in moving players over, only to see that guy stranded at second or third and the bunt being nothing more than a wasted out. I also think Francona was better with bullpens than given credit for. Take last year. The team had just three dependable starters for the first 2 1/2 months and just two for the next 2 1/2 months yet they won 83 games after five  month and on pace for close to 100 wins. It wasn't all because of the offense. I thought he handled the bullpen great to that point, considering how much starters like Miller, Weiland and Lackey were constantly getting shelled. And look at the starters in 1995. Despite what might have been the worst starting rotation in the Tito/Theo era, he got 95 wins out of that team and again, it wasn't simply because of the offense. He handled the bullpen great that year even if he stuck with Foulke a bit too long. Francona was an excellent manager who got pehaps burned out in the last year. And if Bard didn't blow up like he did late in the year and if Papelbon didn't blow two saves in September, the Sox still might have won 94 games or so and made a playoff run. Valentine will be different. But being different isn't better and it isn't worse. It's just better. Let's see Valentime win two W.S. with the Sox. Then we'll see whose style is better.
    Posted by royf19


    Good post Roy.

    From what I've seen, I think Scioscia micromanages, although I fully admit that I haven't watched that many Angels games that closely.  How one manages during the game depends on the make up of the team.  Sac bunts are overrated.  When you have veteran players who are going good, there's a lot to be said for just letting them do their own thing out on the field.

    Personally, I would have welcomed Francona back for another year, although I understand that it was probably time for a change.  He lost the clubhouse last year, but his style of managing worked very well for the majority of his time here.  I have seen no evidence to convince me that Francona was any worse of a strategist than any other manager.

    I am not a Bobby V fan, but all that said, I like what he seems to be doing so far in ST.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    In Response to Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?:
    It's different with Valentine
    Posted by 2004Idiots


    Who do you prefer.... stick it up your AZZ
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    In Response to Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?:
    The real question is does CHB gets his material from the crackpots on this forum or is CHB one of the crackpots?
    Posted by lowelll

    It's one of those " chicken or the egg " things. Did Shaughnessy spawn us crackpots , or did we crackpots spawn Shaughnessy ?  Take your pick.  Coming soon :  Game Thread , 2012 version.
     
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    Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?

    In Response to Re: Managing styles: Tito vs. Bobby V-Who do you prefer?:
    I think Tito started out well , but became somewhat burned out over time. By the end , he was more of a bystander than a leader.  Bobby V represents a nice change of pace with his enthusiastic , hands - on style. The two championships with Tito will always be remembered and appreciated , especially by those of us who never thought we would live to see one.  I would say that the time is right for a change.
    Posted by dgalehouse


    Don't forget that Tito became much more friendly with the players over time. That is something BobbyV has yet to experience. It's easy to come to a team where you don't have relationships with the players, and make all kinds of rules. Shouldn't take anything away from what Tito did for this team when he first arrived here. Apples and oranges at the moment. To judge them fairly, they would have to be judged over time.

    Having said that, I loved Tito, and I'm going to miss seeing him in the dugout. I think he may have had a different attitude this season if he were given the chance. JMO
     
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