Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Not sure how someone (Softy) can wax on constantly about free markets, railing against restrictions on them, and then cry foul when those that drive a multi-billion dollar industry stand up to remove the restrictions on their ability to profit proportionally.  

    [/QUOTE]


    He's not a serious poster, it's just a contstant cry for attention.

    [/QUOTE]

    Granted.  However, this fact does not inhibit my desire to point out his idiot pseudo-right hypocrisies.

    [/QUOTE]


    Nor my enjoyment of the same.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to Hingham Hammer's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Terrible damage to the entertainment value for MLB fans. It is very important for GM's to understand what labor value and fit is. So far, they are in the infant stage of understanding that, as well as developing baseball talent at a very young age. To the extent they advance in that regard, the better the entertainment value to the fans.

    BJ Upton reinforces the fact that they have not advanced, at all.

    [/QUOTE]Thanks to Miller and Flood the players got their freedom which resulted in big pay days for them. Fans on the other hand were dealt a low blow. Unless you're a fan of a big market club you can pretty much forget about seeing a home playoff game. IMO todays game would be better off without Miller and Flood's contribution.


                

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree that the game itself has suffered and our collective experience as fans suffered by Miller's breakthrough.  However, before I am a baseball fan, or at least hand in hand with by baseball fandom, I am an American.  And my economic values are thus informed.  And, I do not think it it very American (in principle if not in practice) to have a multi-billion dollar industry in which the generators of that industry are not compensated accordingly.  Call it Big Labor, call it what you will, but the owners taking all the pie while the players get crumbs is just not right.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    The fans, through their spending (direct and indirect), have decided that today's players are worth their salaries. Baseball teams and their players are making money because the public has provided a generous market.

    Someone might contend that you and I are not worth our earnings, but a free market sets the price. Some people might not be able to afford our services, but the demand remains high enough to support the salaries. When demand dwindles, so will the earnings.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hingham Hammer's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Terrible damage to the entertainment value for MLB fans. It is very important for GM's to understand what labor value and fit is. So far, they are in the infant stage of understanding that, as well as developing baseball talent at a very young age. To the extent they advance in that regard, the better the entertainment value to the fans.

    BJ Upton reinforces the fact that they have not advanced, at all.

    [/QUOTE]Thanks to Miller and Flood the players got their freedom which resulted in big pay days for them. Fans on the other hand were dealt a low blow. Unless you're a fan of a big market club you can pretty much forget about seeing a home playoff game. IMO todays game would be better off without Miller and Flood's contribution.


                

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree that the game itself has suffered and our collective experience as fans suffered by Miller's breakthrough.  However, before I am a baseball fan, or at least hand in hand with by baseball fandom, I am an American.  And my economic values are thus informed.  And, I do not think it it very American (in principle if not in practice) to have a multi-billion dollar industry in which the generators of that industry are not compensated accordingly.  Call it Big Labor, call it what you will, but the owners taking all the pie while the players get crumbs is just not right.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Which I totally agree with, space but like almost everything else, it's gone to the extreme with no end in sight.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    [/QUOTE]Thanks to Miller and Flood the players got their freedom which resulted in big pay days for them. Fans on the other hand were dealt a low blow. Unless you're a fan of a big market club you can pretty much forget about seeing a home playoff game. IMO todays game would be better off without Miller and Flood's contribution.

    Lord Acton (1834-1902), British historian, who originally wrote:

    "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad man."

    The owners wielded their power heavy-handedly, in the old-days. The non-wealthy and/or small market fans got a low blow, but the owners have made out just fine with the changes.

    When the EPL was created over here, the fans were promised that ticket prices would go down.  They haven't and now the game times are purely dictated by TV (partly for Asia).

    The Premier League has secured its status as world football's richest . £3.018billion deal for domestic TV rights for three years

    The first TV deal 1992 Premier League era was worth £304m over five years

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How well-attended were the NFL scab games?

    [/QUOTE]

    I said it would have been grim for 3 years... I cannot help it if you don't understand there is not a single balllayer today who would not be playing had the owners won that battle. 100% of them would be here and the fans would be to

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to pinstripezac's comment:
    [QUOTE]




    I misread that the first time too.  I think he's saying he's opposed to the fact that Miller did not like the union agreeing to any drug testing.


    I was bothered that more clean players didn't insist on it

     

    [/QUOTE]
    Yes, me too, until the process got to the point where MLB had decided on the "secret" testing. 
    At that point I think the rationale of the clean players was sound. 

    IIRC the determining factor of whether to have any drug testing was that a certain percentage of those tested returned a positive test.  The "clean" players were concerned that if all the clean players participated in the testing the percentage of 'dirty' players wouldn't be high enough to trigger the testing. 

    The clean players opted out of the testing in order to make the percentage of dirty players higher and thereby start to clean up the game.  Backwards logic but it worked.

    This doesn't excuse Miller or the MLBPA from not demanding full, random testing of everyone - which IMO should have happened but I'm still not sold on the idea that MLB wanted to expose all the cheaters either. MLB was trying to protect the image of their game.  That's why they went for a percentage of those tested and the players found a way to expose the cheaters and stay within the confines of the MLB proposal.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from djcbuffum. Show djcbuffum's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

                

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree that the game itself has suffered and our collective experience as fans suffered by Miller's breakthrough.  However, before I am a baseball fan, or at least hand in hand with by baseball fandom, I am an American.  And my economic values are thus informed.  And, I do not think it it very American (in principle if not in practice) to have a multi-billion dollar industry in which the generators of that industry are not compensated accordingly.  Call it Big Labor, call it what you will, but the owners taking all the pie while the players get crumbs is just not right.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Well put.

     

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    MLB is not a free market, at all. It's a closed shop. Anyone calling it a free market doesn't know what a free market is.

    That fans are too stupid to organize and cut the labor costs and the cost of the entertainment is simply the same ignorance of a national electorate that keeps voting for something for nothing.

    That GM's are too stupid to understand value and fit is simply manifest in depseration moves like BJ Upton. That fans allow this and lousy player and team performance is a failure to understnad where the true power resides.

    It it scritical to call your team's GM incompetent, as well as run your team's big bust labor out of town by "hating" on them in such a way that the Left wants your speech rights censored.

    Red Sox fans have foolishly paid for loser baseball and nearly a billion dollars in Big Labor costs. The absurdity is that the owner isn't spending enough. The reality is that the fans aren't holding Big Labor accountable, merely cheerleading about the next pipe dream seaosn with the same player leadership.

    Part of what fans should demand is a winning product. MLB is not little league. Big Labor is paid to deliver a winning product, and to the extent it's about some circus sideshow on a losing baseball team, see Tim Wastefield et al victory lap tour 2011.

    Frankly, I find the average Red Sox fan to be a pathetic tool. Cheerleaders like some college team who doesn't give out jock "shcolarships".

    Stand up, protest by heckling the team bums, and organize a boycott of certain games and march with pickets that say such phrases as "a billion dollars of our money isn't for loser baseball!!!"

    [/QUOTE]

    It is a free market and just like any company (Target, Sony, Apple, etc...) anyone and every one does not need to purchase the product. 

    Just because a person is "cheer leading" as you say does not make them pathetic. See many fans of baseball actually realize that the game itself is fickle. They know that just because you spend a lot does not mean you will win a lot. They also know That players have bad years and not every year is a 40 hr or 18 game win year. 

    As for your comment about the same team leadership. I find people that praised the leadership the first 8 years are now saying they are not as good or do not care really funny. Like business men in any bussiness want their product to be the best for their buyers is ludicrous. As if John Henry or bill Gates or Steve Jobs ever wanted to sell an inferior product is pure idiocy. The reason why a sports team can actually give out a bad product is not for want but because it deals with human beings versus a product that comes our toff a lab. Humans are inconsistent in both the FO and on the field but they still try their best believe it or not.

     

    they spent a billion dollars of their money and it only includes yours if you purchased anything from what you say is "loser baseball" that is your fault not anyone else's.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    BTW Marvin and Curt only opened the door.

    The inability of all teams to maintain a sense of smart management since has led MLB to where it currently is.

     

    As much as I hate to say this it is not going to get better.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from djcbuffum. Show djcbuffum's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    I don't really see why so many people think free agency has hurt baseball.  Sure players make a boatload of money, but so does management.  

    Sure tickets prices are high; but guess what?  Management is charging all the market will bear.  Baseball games are an expensive luxury item because there are limited seats and the demand is there to fill them.  In places where there isn't demand, teams have lower ticket prices.  Lower salaries across MLB would probably have little or no effect on seat prices at fenway because so long as the Sox are a competative team, and LL and JH hire a good marketing team, Sox fans are going to keep filling the seats.

    Moreover, most of the money in MLB comes from media contracts and advertising.  Guess what, AM radio is still free to the consumer!  Labor salaries have no effect on that (nor does management's profit).  I pay $19.99 a year for MLB radio; that's pretty cheap for so much entertainment.  Two nights at the movies run more than that.

    As far as beer prices, that's a problem not related to salaries, but related to the monopoly that the teams have inside the stadium.  I suspect if they are only paying players 20k a year, beer prices would still be sky-high, but LL and JH would be living even more large.

    So would someone explain to me why, exactly these absurdly high salaries for ballplayers are "bad for the game"?  I don't really get it.

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from djcbuffum. Show djcbuffum's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to pinstripezac's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't really see why so many people think free agency has hurt baseball.

     

    while I agree with all that djcbuffum

    the payroll doesn't set the tix, food, parking prices

    the market does and the tix prices set the payroll

    you are ignoring that losing your hometown favorite more often

    could be considered hurting BB

    [/QUOTE]

    I'll buy that argument.  I wasn't ignoring it.  Just waiting to see who would raise it and how.  

    I like players who show loyalty to the team.  I would like to see more continutiy year after year.  It's why I was a big fan of Tim Wakefield, and why I'm impressed by Evan Longoria.

    Unfortunately, I don't see how to reconcile that with the fairness of paying players "market value."

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    Fans Union:


    Inexpensive membership of say $10 per person. Fan Union Cards issued to all members. Members to stage no-shows to certain games, let the players and owners hear crickets. Eventually the fans as they gain in number boycott an entire day of games sending shivers down the players/owners backs.

    By taking control and having a seat at the table the Fans Union lowers ticket prices and concession prices... which ultimately forces them to pay lower salaries to players.

     

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Fans Union:


    Inexpensive membership of say $10 per person. Fan Union Cards issued to all members. Members to stage no-shows to certain games, let the players and owners hear crickets. Eventually the fans as they gain in number boycott an entire day of games sending shivers down the players/owners backs.

    By taking control and having a seat at the table the Fans Union lowers ticket prices and concession prices... which ultimately forces them to pay lower salaries to players.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Ok so who decides what games to boycott? KC, NYY, Texas, ????? How do you control the season ticket holder who pays thousands with a 10 dollar card? Like most unions the only ones to gain would be the ones getting paid to Ryun the union. Heck a union made twinkles go away and half the country went nuts. Could you even try to imagine trying to shut down MLB? A ludicrous thought if there ever was one.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    well Jim.... if only 5,000 made it to a game that normally had 25,000 I would think the effect would bne noticable. I cannot help it if you cannot grasp that.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    well Jim.... if only 5,000 made it to a game that normally had 25,000 I would think the effect would bne noticable. I cannot help it if you cannot grasp that.

    [/QUOTE]

    I can grasp that and it happens in some parks already. Like some small market teams. The Yankees or Red Sox come in and attendance goes up 10k. Then it goes back down and it goes down further with some other teams especiially on Monday, and tuesday. So it already happens and the 20k that go will continue to go.

    you need to grasp that a boycott or limited non attendance will not change anything. Look people still went to football games with replacement players. If MLB did the same people would still go not in similar numbers but people would still go.

    if the NHL put minor leaguers or college players in the B's uniform right now some would still go.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Fans Union:


    Inexpensive membership of say $10 per person. Fan Union Cards issued to all members. Members to stage no-shows to certain games, let the players and owners hear crickets. Eventually the fans as they gain in number boycott an entire day of games sending shivers down the players/owners backs.

    By taking control and having a seat at the table the Fans Union lowers ticket prices and concession prices... which ultimately forces them to pay lower salaries to players.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    A very Marxian plan. Fans of the world, unite!

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Big Labor isn't "generators" of MLB. They are merely "players" who provide zero financial capital. An American informed on the American economy is George Washington. You are a minion of the Democrat Party American welfare State.

    [/QUOTE]

    An american informed on the American Economy is George Washington?  What the heck does this mean and what in the world does it have to do with this conversation.

    Furthermore, yes, the players are capital generators, like any entertainers.  We pay money to see them perform.  

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    MLB is not a free market, at all. It's a closed shop. Anyone calling it a free market doesn't know what a free market is.

    That fans are too stupid to organize and cut the labor costs and the cost of the entertainment is simply the same ignorance of a national electorate that keeps voting for something for nothing.

    That GM's are too stupid to understand value and fit is simply manifest in depseration moves like BJ Upton. That fans allow this and lousy player and team performance is a failure to understnad where the true power resides.

    It it scritical to call your team's GM incompetent, as well as run your team's big bust labor out of town by "hating" on them in such a way that the Left wants your speech rights censored.

    Red Sox fans have foolishly paid for loser baseball and nearly a billion dollars in Big Labor costs. The absurdity is that the owner isn't spending enough. The reality is that the fans aren't holding Big Labor accountable, merely cheerleading about the next pipe dream seaosn with the same player leadership.

    Part of what fans should demand is a winning product. MLB is not little league. Big Labor is paid to deliver a winning product, and to the extent it's about some circus sideshow on a losing baseball team, see Tim Wastefield et al victory lap tour 2011.

    Frankly, I find the average Red Sox fan to be a pathetic tool. Cheerleaders like some college team who doesn't give out jock "shcolarships".

    Stand up, protest by heckling the team bums, and organize a boycott of certain games and march with pickets that say such phrases as "a billion dollars of our money isn't for loser baseball!!!"

    [/QUOTE]


    Is pretty crazy even for you.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Big Labor isn't "generators" of MLB. They are merely "players" who provide zero financial capital. An American informed on the American economy is George Washington. You are a minion of the Democrat Party American welfare State.

    [/QUOTE]


    Players are also they product. You can buy cheaper steel but your customers who probably want higher quality. You and your neighbor both want the best steel to sell to your customers, I make steel I can charge you two more because there is only so much steel and both you want it. The only difference is in baseball you need to wait six years before you can sell steel freely or 9 years if you happen have Japanese steel. Before then you are dictated to sell at a set price to one customer. Now that is very capitalistic is it? Remember the owners not the PA have one of two anti-trust exemptions.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    How well-attended were the NFL scab games?

    [/QUOTE]

    I said it would have been grim for 3 years... I cannot help it if you don't understand there is not a single balllayer today who would not be playing had the owners won that battle. 100% of them would be here and the fans would be to

    [/QUOTE]

    I cannot help it if you don't understand that there is not a single ballplayer today that would not be a member of the new union that would have been created had the owners won that battle.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Marvin Miller, A MLB fan's Worst Enemy

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How well-attended were the NFL scab games? the numbers are not the issue they were still attended and they will always be attended by fans of the game. Just like the rays Mon thru Thursday 15 to 18 k, weekend 18 to 22k Yankees or RS up near 30k and there are more like that than like the Sellouts(?) at Fenway. Fans will always attend look at the numbers for the minor leagues. Move those guys up and it has no affect on any teams attendance. Fans will never boycott to any effect on the teams.

    [/QUOTE]

    I said it would have been grim for 3 years... I cannot help it if you don't understand there is not a single balllayer today who would not be playing had the owners won that battle. 100% of them would be here and the fans would be to

    [/QUOTE]

    I cannot help it if you don't understand that there is not a single ballplayer today that would not be a member of the new union that would have been created had the owners won that battle.

    [/QUOTE]


     

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